The Iberian/Irish connection

[Picenian]

Hello everyone, new user here.
During my Lusotannan campaign I couldn't help but wonder about the connection between Iberian tribes and Ireland. I knew from my readings that there were huge trade exchanges between Spain and Ireland in ancient times, but the fact that Ireland was populated by Iberians came as news to me.
What I knew about the connections between those two lands was that the spiral motifs on many steles and pottery (also found in Scotland IIRC) were also very common in neolithic Iberia (but I always personally believed it was due to the pre-indoeuropean substratum). I also know about the Milesi theory about the invasions of Ireland, but I thought it had little or no historical basis. Anyway, Lusotannan leaders claiming rights over Ireland came as news to me :D

also, I found out that the now disabled units Dosidataskeli and Dubosaverlacica (if I spell correctly) were hinted to be a link between the two peoples (like, dubosaverlacica being sort of "descendants" of heavily armored warriors from Iberia). I also read that they were disabled due to lack of proof. What I mean is: where can I find the historical evidence for the supposed existence of these amazing man-tanks? And what about the supposed ancient Iberian colonization of Ireland?

Thank you very much to whoever has some info on the topic

[Brennus]

Bit busy at the moment, but I will aim to have your question answered in the next few days.

[Moros]

I'll let brennus interest you with a lengthy historical reply as he is our "celt" expert and primary historian for Iberia. I can give you the short reasons for our decisions on those two units.

The dosidasomethings were indeed sketchy at best. They represented an elite and tribe specific (Vasci if I remember well) bodyguard unit. Obviously as the Vasci weren't a faction and it's evidence being limited, it didn't really had its place in EB I. The "Irish" or goidelic counterpart of this unit seems to had even less of an historical basis it appeared. Or at least we couldn't find and determine it historical basis.

There are indeed theories on a "Iberian"-"Irish" connection. As far as I seem to remember those are rather outdated. And surely the two units in question shouldn't be considered as an element of proof for this theory. Now let's wait for Brennus' answer. Hopefully I didn't post anything outrageous. Well except for using the word celt, which he apparently dislikes.

[Picenian]

Yep, that's pretty much what I had in mind... outdated theories (mostly referring to the "Milesian" theory which is practically based on nothing IIRC). I'd like to know some more about those theories since it seems I can't find a reliable source online :)

[Brennus]

Ok, here we go.

As Picenian noted in his first post, the cultural links between Ireland and Iberia in prehistory were ancient ones. Recent genetic studies (Oppenheimer 2006) have shown that the Mesolithic populations of Iberia and Ireland stem from the same Pleistocene refugia; an area of the Basque country which was sufficiently warm and free of glaciation to enable human beings to survive there. During the Mesolithic, with the end of glaciation, this population expanded through Iberia and then migrated up the Atlantic coast into southern Ireland. Although agriculture appears to have been introduced to Ireland from Britain during the Neolithic, during the Bronze Age we once again have evidence of Ibero-Irish contact in the form of mining and megaliths. During the Bronze Age it appears that Mediterranean metal prospectors arrived in Ireland from Iberia. Western Iberia and the British Isles, due to their Jurassic geology, are rich in tin and copper (although the two metals have mutually exclusive distributions). We know from historical accounts that the Greeks were visiting Tartessos in southern Iberia (modern day western Andalusia) during the Iron Age, but it seems almost certain that metal prospectors from the Near East were visiting Iberia during the Bronze Age in search of the above metals. A Bronze Age (or rather Chalcolithic) open mine has been excavated in County Kerry in Ireland and the fact this mine is older than the tin mines of Britain suggests that the prospectors who came to open this mine (the natives had hitherto shown no interest in the copper deposits, nor would they have been familiar in how to extract copper from the rocks, external instruction would have been required) traveled from Iberia, where similar mines were already in operation, rather than from Britain. This exchange of metals along the Atlantic coast appears to have created something of a cultural koine, with Ireland, western Britain and western Iberia all sharing similar cultural traits, the most striking of which are the large stone tombs/astronomical structures, the megaliths (see Stonehenge and Newgrange for particularly brilliant examples). It is also theorised that the Celtic languages, which are first attested to in Tartessos, emerged in this part of Europe and were spread by the metal trade; only later did they spread inland to Europe, whereupon they became synonymous with the La Tene culture.

With the onset of the Iron Age Ireland became culturally isolated from the rest of Europe. The rich Irish Bronze Age was replaced by a sparse Iron Age. In fact, so little has been recovered of the Irish Iron Age that the Iron Age Irish are referred to as "The Invisible People". However, the settlement pattern in southern Ireland, with its stone enclosures set on hills shows strong similarities to the Iberian castro culture which existed in Celtiberia (until c.300 BC when oppida emerged) and in north and western Iberia. Old Irish and Celtiberian also share many linguistic features, such as the retention of the Q/Kw sound where British and Gallic use a P sound. For example the Irish and Celtiberians would have said *Equos (horse) whilst the Britons and Gauls would have said *Epos. North eastern Ireland shows more similarity to the settlement pattern and material culture of nearby Scotland, and by the end of the Roman occupation of Britain the two shared a common culture; the historical Gaels who would introduce the nationality of Scot to Scotland (hitherto Caledonia/Pictland). Even so, we know that the north of Ireland was still in contact with Iberia. At the "royal" site of Emain Macha/Navan in Northern Ireland the skull of a barbary ape, a species native to Morocco and southern Iberia, was excavated dating to the 1st century BC. The presence of this skull, within a structure which likely had a very important ritual/religious function, suggests that the Iron Age Irish in the north were still in contact with their Iberian cousins.

If you are looking for proof of the Dosidataskeli and Dubosaverlacica read the Irish heroic literature, such as the Táin Bó Cúailnge and the Tuatha Dé Danann, the few La Tene era weapons which have been discovered in Ireland are small by Celtic standards. These works were written in the Early Christian Period (the Irish Dark Age) and have their origins in Pagan Ireland, although they were written by Christian monks. It is theorised that they were committed to writing in the face of increasing Norse raids and settlement in an effort to preserve Irish culture and encourage Irish leaders to unite and resist Viking attacks.

Does that help?

[Picenian]

whoa, that's almost ALL I was looking for, thank you very much, you gave me MANY ideas for future readings! This is MOST interesting, expecially the part of the ancient "trade area" and the barbary skull found in IReland which I never heard about. Thank you again, I'll probably be back asking questions on the subject :D

So basically the "Irish black warriors" (dubhosaguys) were based ONLY on champions from Tuatha De DAnann?

[Brennus]

Pretty much. If you like I could recommend some books which deal with Ireland in the Iron Age?

Feel free to ask questions, it's a pleasure answering them.

[Picenian]

Yes please, though my read-list is becoming ENDLESS I'd really like to get started seriously on this subject (after I'm done with a very old book on the mediterranean Bronze Age I found at the flea market)

[Blooo]

Here's a good read: http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/gafm/

Obviously not a historical source, but fun

[Brennus]

Yes please, though my read-list is becoming ENDLESS I'd really like to get started seriously on this subject (after I'm done with a very old book on the mediterranean Bronze Age I found at the flea market)

For a quite comprehensive overview I would recommend Barry Raftery "Pagan Celtic Ireland" (1997). However there are more specialised and regional studies such as Mallory and McNeil (1994) book on the archaeology of Ulster.

[HopliteLegion]

This is a very interesting thread, especially considering my family's Irish heritage. I had always wondered why I don't "look" Irish (dark hair, brown eyes, tan skin). Iberians settling in southern Ireland would very much explain that (where I can best figure the largest number of the Gallagher surname originate). Now if I can just figure out where the size of men in my family comes into play (tall and broad). I had read somewhere about Viking settlements in that same region of Ireland, which would make sense, considering my oily skin (believed to be a trait of ancient peoples in cold climates). Given the name Gallagher dates back to people who were known as friendly to foreigners...

Anyway, I'm pulling this way off topic. My apologies.

[Picenian]

This is a very interesting thread, especially considering my family's Irish heritage. I had always wondered why I don't "look" Irish (dark hair, brown eyes, tan skin). Iberians settling in southern Ireland would very much explain that (where I can best figure the largest number of the Gallagher surname originate). Now if I can just figure out where the size of men in my family comes into play (tall and broad). I had read somewhere about Viking settlements in that same region of Ireland, which would make sense, considering my oily skin (believed to be a trait of ancient peoples in cold climates). Given the name Gallagher dates back to people who were known as friendly to foreigners...


Anyway, I'm pulling this way off topic. My apologies.

well, if you want to know an opinion coming from "the other side", since I am born of a typical Italian looking family (dark curly hari, short but stout) I have always wondered why I have green eyes and my uncle has blue eyes (without any "nordic" traits in our family as far as I recall). So I've always believed since I was a nerdy history-loving child that this comes from Celtic ancestry since we all were born near the land that belonged to the Senones :D

[Brennus]

I wouldn't say it was pulling it off topic.

I am always skeptical of the idea that certain traits are indicative of certain ancestors, but nevertheless there are certainly national stereotypes. Have either of you considered having your DNA tested to trace your matrilineal and patrilineal lines?

[Gaius Sempronius Gracchus]

I wouldn't say it was pulling it off topic.

I am always skeptical of the idea that certain traits are indicative of certain ancestors, but nevertheless there are certainly national stereotypes. Have either of you considered having your DNA tested to trace your matrilineal and patrilineal lines?

Yep. Europe (and consequently the Americas) is, particularly, a cacophony of genetic heritages; for every 'typical' Italian or Irishman or German (etc.) I could counter with what would be seen as an a-typical example. There may be variations in the form of clines but its a pot that has been well and truly mixed.

[HopliteLegion]

I have considered it, but I've never looked into how much such a thing would cost. It is interesting to think about, but research is largely impossible if one is trying to go back that far. My mom had done the whole ancestry thing and got as far back as the 1770s, on only her mother's side. This took about 2 years.