Another Reason I Hate the Gracies

[Vuk]

I am subscribed to the Gracie Insider newsletter that they send out about every week and I have been noticing a disturbing trend. They seem to be more and more using tragedy to sell their (bogus) product.
Take this one from a week ago for example:

Free Women's Self Defense Seminar in July
Space is Limited - RSVP Today!

A few months ago, a girl from San Gabriel Valley was kidnapped and raped. According to detectives, the suspect came up behind the victim, grabbed her, and forced her into an older, black four-door Mercedes that was parked behind a business. For more information on the assault click here.

6 Techniques Can Save Your Life!
The Gracie Academy is offering a free women's self-defense seminar in July, at the Torrance academy. The special 2-hour seminar is designed for first-time self-defense students and will address six critical techniques to address the following threat scenarios:

•How to break free from an attacker who grabs you without warning.
•How to avoid being taken to the ground by a determined attacker.
•How to escape from underneath an attacker who has you pinned to the ground.
Save Your Spot Today
The seminar is free but space is very limited, so you must RSVP in advance. Absolutely no experience is necessary to participate, and the seminar is open to women ages 13 and up (Note: Anyone under 18 must be accompanied by an adult). If you or someone you love would like to participate in the special 2-hour seminar, contact us using the information below and we'll save your spot today. Also, feel free to forward this information to any of your friends who might be interested in attending.

Torrance Self-defense Seminar
Date: Saturday, July 13 from 2:30pm to 4:30pm
Location: 3515 Artesia Blvd, Torrance, CA 90504
Attire: Casual workout attire.
RSVP: Call (310) 353-4100 or send an email to Jackie@gracieacademy.com

The techniques taught in the special 2-hour seminar are derived from the Gracie Women Empowered program. To learn more about this program or to watch some free Women Empowered instructional videos, click here.

Really guys? Just like that, huh? Just gonna coldly drop a link to a horrible tragedy like that and use it for advertisement? And let's be clear, this is just advertising a product. This free self-defense seminar is nothing but an introductory class so people can see if they like it and then sign up. It is not intended to enable people to save their lives in an attack, and will not. One martial arts class will not improve you chances nearly at all. That comes with lots of training.
What they are doing is just using a horrific event to bring more people into the Gracie money making trap.

I emailed them a WTF letter, and shared it with my friends who did the same. A lot of people on different forums were pretty mad about it. The next newsletter that uses a victim's ordeal to sell their product is at least set up a bit to look like they are just trying to help and not be disrespectful. It is a lot classier than the first one and they offered to train the victim for free. I will give them credit for that, but that is probably only because people made such a stink about the first one. Still though, the second video is just a viral sharing scheme where they basically say "If you want this woman to not have nightmares for the rest of her life and to be able to defend her children, and if you want this bad guy caught, you have to help us advertise! BTW, aren't we great caring people?"


Darned Gracies are just a bunch of classless, greedy, dishonest, conmen, and crap like this really does not make them look any better.

[Vuk]

We Caught Him!N.J. Home Invader Arrested by FBI

Last week we put out a Special Gracie Breakdown regarding the brutal assault by a New Jersey home invader. Exactly one week after the assault took place, the FBI arrested the suspect, Shawn Custis, in New York City. Thanks to everyone who shared the video which identified the suspect, the power of the internet is truly mind boggling!

To watch the news report regarding the suspect's arrest, click here.


New Video: Suspect Arrested in Attack on Mom Caught on Nanny Cam

Funny, I didn't here about the Gracie's great help on the news.

[Crazed Rabbit]

Darned Gracies are just a bunch of classless, greedy, dishonest, conmen, and crap like this really does not make them look any better.

They are not a homogeneous blob.

I am subscribed to the Gracie Insider newsletter

...Why?

Also, you're complaining about the Gracies and not Lloyd Irvin, the rapist?

CR

[Vuk]

They are not a homogeneous blob.



...Why?

Also, you're complaining about the Gracies and not Lloyd Irvin, the rapist?

CR

Yeah, I am generalizing about them, but based on whom they have chosen to represent themselves.
And the reason I posted about them is because while everyone recognized that rapists are reprehensible, many people have a very good opinion of the Gracies.

The Gracies refined a fantastic fighting style. How they've chosen to subsequently sell-out after becoming famous seems irrelevant.

Unless Vuk is one of those crazies who thinks grappling skills are overrated.

It is not irrelevant. They con people out of millions of dollars and endanger people's lives by misrepresenting their product. Seem like an outrageous claim? Let me expand.
First of all, their system is very poorly suited to self-defense and to the military, as it only works well if dealing with one attacker. Most times people are not so lucky. Also, BJJ is less well suited to self-defense or the military than many forms of traditional JJJ, as it was designed specifically for tournaments and challenge fights, and not real, life and death fights.
Even in tournaments wrestling and boxing/kickboxing generally are far more important in securing victory, even amongst great BJJ practitioners like GSP, but that is another matter.
In order to promote their art so that they could get more money, the conned our military into heavily basing its new combatives on GJJ. It is true that our old combatives were too kill oriented and did not have enough restraint techniques, but adopting BJJ and adding a few palm strikes was not the answer to changing combat needs. Hand-to-hand combat is rare in modern conflicts, but happens. Being trained correctly could mean the difference between life and death. You think the Gracies cared that they were endangering people by selling GJJ to the military? Of course not, it was good publicity.

GJJ is ill-suited for civilian life-saving measures for the save reasons as the military. It is far too limited and ground-fighting gets you killed when there are multiple attackers. The Gracies still try to sell their style as well suited for self-defense, and particularly for small men and women.

The truth is that the average violent criminal is a man. Women are on average a lot smaller and less physically capable than men. The average man needs to learn a lot less to defend himself against the average man than the average woman would. As such, a class specifically designed for women should be far more intense as an average woman needs to train harder than an average man to defend against the same opponent.

So what is the Gracie Women Empowered Course? A watered-down version of their main course that targets men. True, women can join a school and learn the same as men, but they market the WE courses as ideal for women and most women will enroll in them instead. Why? If you are going to have something specifically targeting women, it should be far more intense, not the opposite!

So why lie to women and make them think they would have a better chance of surviving by taking an inferior course? Why, because they think it will bring in greater volumes of people, and even though they will send them all away no better off than when they started, they will make more money from them.

They are just a bunch of conmen who make profit from deceiving women and our military.

And no, I don't think grappling skills are overrated. I think ground fighting is overrated. A good counter-grappler can keep from going to the ground most times, even against the best grapplers. Why do you think it is that most times you have a battle or two great grapplers in the UFC the stand up and strike? Because they know it would just be a waste of effort to try to take each other down, and that to achieve a take down would take much more time than they have.
The best fighters are good counter-grapplers who stay on their feet and take their opponents out with strikes. Even Randy Couture (best UFC fighter in the history of the show IMHO) who I honestly think wrestled way too much still mostly knocked his opponents out.

[Strike For The South]

These are the best threads

[Vuk]

Sounds like you misunderstand the Army's combatives program. BJJ is just a small part of it. The earlier levels of the combatives program are there to teach unexperienced fighters how to quickly master a few good moves that can keep them alive in a grapple.

There is no reliable or easily taught method to fend off multiple attackers at once. If that's your standard, I'd love to know what kind of martial arts background you think is the "best."

Remember the UFC is not fighting. They are not trying to kill eachother, kick eachother in the balls, gouge each other's eyes out, and so forth. It is a sport. That's no comparison, and that's why grappling is important.

I have a copy of the Army Combatives manual (FM 3-25.150 (FM 21-150)), and it has 9 chapters, 6 of which deal with the techniques of the program and the other 3 history and training protocol. The first chapter dealing with the program is Basic Ground fighting (BJJ), the second is Advanced Ground fighting (GJJ), and the third is Takedowns and throws (GJJ).
Chapter six (the fourth dealing with the techniques of the program) is on striking, and says in the beginning in italics

Strikes are an inefficient method of ending a fight. However, they are a significant part of most fights, and a soldier must have an understanding of fighting at striking range. It is important to note that while at striking range, you are open to being struck. For this reason, it is often better to avoid striking range.

The chapter then goes on to say that you should never strike with a closed fist because you will hurt yourself, and that striking should only be used to distract someone (if at all) so that distance can be closed and you can go to the ground with them. Their entire philosophy on striking is a GJJ philosophy! The first 4 of 6 chapters so far are nearly entirely GJJ.
The fifth chapter deals with handheld weapons and is the only chapter so far that is no GJJ dominated.
The sixth chapter, Standing Defense is again, mostly all GJJ.
So out of 6 chapters dealing with techniques, 5 are nearly pure GJJ, and all unarmed techniques and philosophy are derived from GJJ.

Now I realize this is only entry level material, but it says clear as day that anything but GJJ will get you killed, so the only way the advanced stuff could be any different is if it tells soldiers that what they initially learned wasn't right.

Also, from what I have heard from people who have served in the Army and Guard, most people don't go beyond the most basic "here is how you get out of this hold, and here is how you get out of this choke" because they are not required to. That means that everything else in the combatives program is basically irrelevant. (just as everything above tan belt is in MCMAP, as most Marines don't progress past that point)

I've had the opportunity to talk to multiple soldiers in my martial arts classes when I was attending Uni, and with one exception all they were taught was the BS GJJ shite.

When you have such little time to teach a soldier how to survive, it should not be wasted on groundfighting and grappling that will just get people killed.

You are right, there is no reliable or easily taught method to fend off multiple attackers at once. You are always at a disadvantage in such a situation, and often if can come down to just surviving till your friends get involved. You will not survive long on your back. The best thing to do is to stay on your feet, and to even the odds by quickly dispatching foes if possible. If you can even take out one guy with strikes before you are entangled by the rest, it still gives you a better chance of surviving till help arrives. Or in the best case scenario, you can stay on your feet and dispatch them one at a time.
Strikes can take people out of a fight fast, grappling can't. Defense against multiple people relies on you taking your enemies out as fast as possible. It also relies on you staying on your feet.
What do I think would be better? What they replaced. The Fairbairn system, or if they would actually give their men more time to train hand-to-hand fighting (which I believe they should devote more time to it), the LINE system.
Both deal with dispatching foes as quickly as possible, while staying on your feet.

And yes, I am aware that the UFC is not real fighting. Heck, I argued that in earlier thread when certain people were telling me that if something didn't work in the UFC it wouldn't work in real life.

[Andres]

I usually sing to scare attackers away. Works like a charm every time. Which shows that singing moves are vastly underrated in combat training.

But singing is nothing compared to ballet. Who wouldn't run away when threatened by a superior ballet dancer in a pink tutu?

[HopAlongBunny]

Andres is right. A superior ballet dancer has the body knowledge and fitness to dance on your grave.

[johnhughthom]

Andres, when you say superior, are you talking about the bulge?

[Vuk]

I guess my point is that I can't think of a better alternative. Remember that a Soldier is training to fight in body armor, wearing all kinds of gear, possibly with weapons near at hand. A few basic "Holy crap don't kill me" moves is all you need unless you want to make a hobby out of unarmed combat.

We used to spend a little more time and teach people more practical hand-to-hand combat/survival skills. Our guys learned enough to be effective and trained in combat gear.
Certain troops need to know more than others, but even the least trained should know at least basic h2h survival skills. The BJJ/GJJ "Holy crap don't kill me" moves you were talking about are counter-productive and will get people killed.

Even if not against our current enemies, in larger wars h2h fighting always becomes more important, and neutering our military's h2h combat tradition will make it much harder and more costly to adapt when we are faced with larger conflicts.

The fact is that the Gracies lied about their system and convinced our military to base their combatives on it, even though they had to know it could lead to people dying. And all so they could make more $$$$.

The Gracies are just trash.

[johnhughthom]

What about Anderson Silva at the weekend? Just desserts? Always bound to happen sooner or later?

[johnhughthom]

They certainly will if they get on like that...

[gaelic cowboy]

What is a gracie?????????????????

[Vuk]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gracies

Heh, that's actually a terribly sparse entry. When the UFC was new, the Gracies dominated. Check out UFC 1 some time, its the best thing ever. A boxer gets beat up by a Gracie, Ken Shamrock gets beat up by a Gracie, and some sumo wrestler gets kicked right in the freaking face while he's on the ground. This was before rules and weight classes, when it was just advertised as a melee to test different martial arts styles against eachother. The Gracies style then went on to become the baseline for the generic style of MMA that most UFC fighters now use, though its changed a lot and has a lot of different influences now, its hard to deny, in my opinion, that the Gracies are responsible in no small part for re-defining modern martial arts. So I do think Vuk is being a wee bit unfair.

Not really. Carlos Gracie spent years observing professional athletes from other combat sports and practicing with amateurs in those combat sports, so that he could learn how to use the tools in Judo against those other styles, and even rework them to be more effective for his needs. All other athletes from other combat sports only ever trained against people of the same art, and even thought about how to apply the tools of their style to counter another style. That is why the Gracies had an initially successful run against other martial artists. (not to mention the fact that they had much more dedicated training than most of the people they fought, were in better shape than many, and had a very supportive family of martial artists to train with, some were caught doping, etc, etc., all giving them a huge advantage)
When people stopped thinking so one-dimensionally and starting thinking of how to use the tools they had available to counter other styles, GJJ suddenly stopped doing so well.
Guys like Kazushi Sakuraba who was going through school and only half-arse training part time, and suffered nasty injuries early in his career destroyed the Gracies. His mix of his own brand of submission grappling and his superior wrestling and grappling put GJJ to shame. Their style is known mostly for its submissions, and here a Judoka/catch-wrestler's style turned out to be much more effective.
Tons of people have consistently beaten the Gracies using different styles as soon as they figured out how to use their tools against them (something the Gracies had spent years doing before their first professional fights).
Right now kickboxing/boxing and wrestling rule the octagon, not GJJ. It had early success only because it took people by surprise. As soon as that surprise died off, it became clear that even with the UFC rules that are designed give GJJ practitioners an advantage, GJJ just is not as effective or important to fighting as other arts.

[Crazed Rabbit]

Not really. Carlos Gracie spent years observing professional athletes from other combat sports and practicing with amateurs in those combat sports, so that he could learn how to use the tools in Judo against those other styles, and even rework them to be more effective for his needs. All other athletes from other combat sports only ever trained against people of the same art, and even thought about how to apply the tools of their style to counter another style. That is why the Gracies had an initially successful run against other martial artists. (not to mention the fact that they had much more dedicated training than most of the people they fought, were in better shape than many, and had a very supportive family of martial artists to train with, some were caught doping, etc, etc., all giving them a huge advantage)
When people stopped thinking so one-dimensionally and starting thinking of how to use the tools they had available to counter other styles, GJJ suddenly stopped doing so well.

Ah, I see what this is. You're just bitter BJJ is extremely popular in the UFC and MMA training, and judo isn't. BJJ never stopped doing well. Nearly everyone in the UFC trains in it at least somewhat. Hardly anyone trains judo.

Guys like Kazushi Sakuraba who was going through school and only half-arse training part time, and suffered nasty injuries early in his career destroyed the Gracies. His mix of his own brand of submission grappling and his superior wrestling and grappling put GJJ to shame. Their style is known mostly for its submissions, and here a Judoka/catch-wrestler's style turned out to be much more effective.

No, Kazushi "The Gracie Hunter" was way more effective. What other man with a style similar to his had similar success?

Tons of people have consistently beaten the Gracies using different styles as soon as they figured out how to use their tools against them (something the Gracies had spent years doing before their first professional fights).
Right now kickboxing/boxing and wrestling rule the octagon, not GJJ. It had early success only because it took people by surprise. As soon as that surprise died off, it became clear that even with the UFC rules that are designed give GJJ practitioners an advantage, GJJ just is not as effective or important to fighting as other arts.

Wrestling is ground fighting. BJJ is still extremely popular and dangerous. Judo is not because...well, let's ask the first American to win the World Judo Championships;

http://drannmaria.blogspot.com/2012/...d-martial.html

So, here are five reasons why most judo players will not be successful at mixed martial arts.

• They just aren't in that good physical condition. That's a fact. Shut up. I've seen athletes in wrestling, track, soccer and, yes, even swimming, and they train more than most judo players in the U.S. My lovely little Julia at age 13 played for the Santa Monica Saints Extra team (that's like the city All-Stars) and they practiced five days a week, two hours a day non-stop, and often played an additional two or three hours each day on the weekends in tournaments. That is more than many judo players in this country. Shut up. I watch you train and fight. You do not.
• They count too much on the referee to save them. Judo has stupid rules. If you touch the opponent's leg (in most circumstances) you can automatically lose. If you hold more than a few seconds on one side, you get a penalty. On the other hand, you can lay on your stomach and stall and it is nothing. In mixed martial arts, the opponent gets to punch you if you do this.
• Many judo techniques on the mat rely on using the judo gi to tie up the opponent, which will not work in mixed martial arts, although it is very effective for judo and if you compete in judo, I highly recommend that, if it is working for you, you keep that up.
• Effective grip-fighting, tying up the opponent so he or she cannot attack, is a good strategy for winning in judo. It is not AS effective for mixed martial arts. (Although Ronda argues that, with the right attitude and strategy, it CAN transfer.)
• Many techniques like tai otoshi rely on using the gi and are far more difficult to do without one.

CR

[Crazed Rabbit]

US Marine gets beat by smaller, weaker woman who knows BJJ;
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=6fd_1374000259

CR

[a completely inoffensive name]

If only that marine had gone through proper bayonet training...

[Vuk]

Yes, that would have helped him so much in a grappling match. And heaven knows that grappling matches like that one are what a Marine is most likely to see on the battlefield. MCMAP is 70% BJJ. He probably trained a few weeks of it, whereas she probably has trained for years. No wonder she won a grappling match.

[Vuk]

What? That match was over the moment he gave up his back. There's really no way to gauge how good a fighter she was because he was really terrible.

At Ft. Bliss there was a huge all-female combatives community, and they were awesome. That place was humble pie for a lot of dudes who thought they could fight.

My point exactly.

[lars573]

And this is why if I were to learn a martial arts system it would be Bane's. As it's all about turning people into meat origami and spiffy coats.

[Vuk]

How is that your point? BJJ stresses not giving up your back (to include Army and Marine combatives training, as you have so adroitly pointed out that BJJ is a big part of those programs). Obviously this Marine wasn't very well trained at all, so pointing fingers at the fighting style is fruitless here.

I wasn't pointing fingers at the style. I said that it was essentially a BJJ match and she was the better BJJ. Thus it doesn't prove the effectiveness of BJJ over anything.

[Crazed Rabbit]

Vuk earlier in this thread;

GJJ is ill-suited for civilian life-saving measures for the save reasons as the military. It is far too limited and ground-fighting gets you killed when there are multiple attackers. The Gracies still try to sell their style as well suited for self-defense, and particularly for small men and women.

The truth is that the average violent criminal is a man. Women are on average a lot smaller and less physically capable than men. The average man needs to learn a lot less to defend himself against the average man than the average woman would. As such, a class specifically designed for women should be far more intense as an average woman needs to train harder than an average man to defend against the same opponent.

It wasn't a BJJ match, it was a grappling match.

When people stopped thinking so one-dimensionally and starting thinking of how to use the tools they had available to counter other styles, GJJ suddenly stopped doing so well.

Also, in the UFC tonight a "two-time University Freestyle All-American wrestler" just got beat by armbar submission.

CR

[Vuk]

Vuk earlier in this thread;

Your point is? Nothing in the part you quoted contradicted anything I said later. Maybe you should re-read it.

It wasn't a BJJ match, it was a grappling match.

Yes, a grappling match in which one person knew GJJ and used only GJJ, and the other person knew a variant of it and used only that. i.e., it turned into a GJJ match.

Also, in the UFC tonight a "two-time University Freestyle All-American wrestler" just got beat by armbar submission.

CR

So what?
There have been Navy Seals shot by Taliban fighters. Does that make Taliban fighters better than Navy Seals?