NSA Secretly Collecting Phone Records Of All U.S. Verizon Calls

[Xiahou]

Have a Verizon phone? Talk to someone who has one? If so, the NSA likely knows who you are, who you were talking to, where you were when you did it and some other interesting tidbits. Pretty much the only thing they aren't doing is recording your conversation.

I'd love to hear their justification for this. As TechCrunch points out, thanks to the IRS scandal, formerly tinfoil hat theories are no longer out of bounds....

Late last year, I wrote about a few actual harms that citizens should be worried about from these types of big-data spying programs. Blackmailing citizens critical of the government seemed like a distant hypothetical, until we learned that the IRS was auditing Tea Party groups and journalists were being wiretapped. Nefarious actors inside the government like to abuse national security programs for political ends, and that should make us all (even more) suspect of government spying.

[Greyblades]

And even after this your ruling party is still the saner choice.

America scares me.

[Husar]

America #1, better get used to this if you don't want to lose to China. Everyone knows Chinese spies use Verizon.

Just like many people here know that privacy is not as far as US companies are concerned. The only surprise is that this surprises you after giving up all the privacy due to fear of terrorism.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

All cell calls are, by definition, broadcast. Anything beamed can be recorded.

The NSA has the most powerful computers and de-encryption algorithms available.

In short, given enough time to brute force it, they can read any message.

What do they read? Why? Under what circumstances or oversight?


Always the question boils down to "qui custodiat costodians?"

[Papewaio]

Can you get NSA to get your correct bills then? To help fix the network and to keep Telcos honest about download speeds.

That would get something practical out of this.

I do wonder what the big data crunching could get out of this.
=][=

So has the concept of privacy and warrants gone out the door? Shouldn't the telco track call usage and then the states officer apply for a warrant to see what you've done?

How secure is NSAs data? What happens if some of this leaks? What happens when polticians or their followers deside to use it for political gain?

There is far worse things then terrorism, a police state is one of them.

[Papewaio]

We talk about total war, Arab Spring, Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, WW I & II, 911, Bali and Boston Bombings, pedophile priests and the babe thread.

Something is going to trigger some sort of algorithm. If not, then they ain't doing their job right.

[The Stranger]

And Fragony is ofcourse a wanted man all across the globe. He apparantly likes to shoot chambermaids with crossbows or m4's, or so ive heard

[Xiahou]

And it keeps getting better:

The National Security Agency and the FBI are tapping directly into the central servers of nine leading U.S. Internet companies, extracting audio and video chats, photographs, e-mails, documents, and connection logs that enable analysts to track one target or trace a whole network of associates, according to a top-secret document obtained by The Washington Post.

Boom. That was the 4th amendment imploding.

So who were the 9 companies?

Microsoft, Yahoo, Google, Facebook, PalTalk, AOL, Skype, YouTube, Apple

Google surprised me... sorta. But then I realized they've been rolling over for other regimes around the world- so why not for the US? Google makes Android, Apples makes the iPhone. The NSA also collects your calling records. Seems the NSA could keep pretty good tabs on someone if they wanted to...

I'm particularly miffed that Dropbox was listed as "coming soon". I guess I better encrypt anything that I wouldn't want publicly available.... If the government is collecting it, then they're storing it. If they're storing it, it's only a matter of time before some incompetent/malicious bureaucrat leaks it.

Once again, the tinfoil hatters seem a little less crazy....

edit:Phew. The program isn't targeted at Americans. Fear not they have safeguards in place to protect us....

Analysts who use the system from a Web portal at Fort Meade key in “selectors,” or search terms, that are designed to produce at least 51 percent confidence in a target’s “foreignness.” That is not a very stringent test. Training materials obtained by the Post instruct new analysts to submit accidentally collected U.S. content for a quarterly report, “but it’s nothing to worry about.”

So their standard is you have to be about as sure as tossing a coin that the data you're gathering is foreign, not domestic. And if you collect data on Americans "it's nothing to worry about".

[Papewaio]

51% is a very low standard. It meets some sort of by law "You must have thought it was foreign".

It's right up there with:
Hunter "The wild animal was charging me and I feared for my safety"
Wildlife officer "Sir, that's a squirrel."

[HopAlongBunny]

You can't even make conspiracy theories about the NSA, because...

it is all true!

Slate gives a good summary: http://www.slate.com/articles/news_a...f_verizon.html

[drone]

Regarding the Verizon bit, this has been going on for years, probably with all major carriers. Nice and legal according to the PATRIOT act (legal and constitutional are not the same thing). They are only allowed 90 days of collection per request, so they just submit a new request every 3 months and get the FISA rubberstamp. They aren't allowed content, but they can probably trace who called who, when, for how long, and from where, since at least 2006. Didn't stop the Boston attack though, so I would hardly call this effective. 4th amendment doesn't really apply, as the data they are taking isn't your data, it Verizon's collected for billing purposes. Now, if corporations really were people, Verizon could challenge this easily if they cared.

When it comes to social media, it's important to remember that none of that belongs to you. You are using their service, their bandwidth, their drive space, they can pretty much do what they want with what you post. You are their product, not their customer. Read the terms of service. If you have stuff on facebook you don't want the government to know about, you shouldn't be putting out there in the first place.

[Papewaio]

I'm sure the parties think about the damage the NSA could do to them.

If Manning can do as much damage as he is claimed to have done. Imagine the spooks spook of NSA.

All your politicians calls to their mistress belong to us - Anonymous NSA lobbyist.

[Husar]

As a foreigner, this foreigners thing already makes me feel better about the whole thing and the US in general.

[ICantSpellDawg]

Every amendment in our Constitution is under attack. We are being occupied by a government that has no respect for the rule of law, yet demands increasing observance of increasingly more onerous laws from its citizens. Americans had a revolution for less and created something great. We need to punish these people at the ballot box. Lifelong Republicans support the police state? Vote them out. Lifelong Democrats? Vote them out. Party means nothing if the person is a traitor.

I plan on voting against My State Senator, House Rep, even though they are Republicans. I also plan to campaign against them for anyone else who promises better

I want heavier duty arms in the hands of citizens. The government has to have a plausible fear of overthrow, otherwise it acts with impunity. This is a danger. If the government had minimal laws to obey and didn't punish citizens for minor harmless activity, privacy wouldn't be as big of an issue. Until this is no longer a government that ruins peoples lives over smoking harmless plants, privacy is still important.

[Papewaio]

A good rule of thumb is vote against the incumbent.

Unless you really know them, understand their voting record and agree with it. Vote against them.

Entrenched pollies get addicted to the trough.

[TinCow]

*As for the whole foreigners thing... Pretty flimsy indeed. 51%? That's not enough to hold up to scientific or legal scrutiny at all, so why are they allowed to arbitrarily say that such a figure is good enough?

Ironically, that's precisely the standard by which the VA legal process decides whether or not to grant or deny claims. 51% in favor, you win. 51% against, you lose. 50% even (almost never happens), you win. This standard itself was created by a Federal court so, yes, it could hold up to legal scrutiny.

[Xiahou]

Here's what is probably the money shot from the leaked slide show presentation:



That's the non-comprehensive list of the data the PRISM program is gathering. Taken piecemeal, it shouldn't come as a total shock to anyone that all of this info is not truly private. However, a single government agency aggregating all of that data (combined with your telephone and credit card records), indexing it and searching thru it should be unsettling to anyone.

[Papewaio]

That is a permanent warrant less search.

I thought the USA Military was oath bound to fight all enemies of the Constitution both foreign and domestic... surely warrant less searches are breaking some sort of Constitutional right... yes NSA ya can read my posts... but you are also nodding your head in agreement to the logic... with your mind don't it.

[Greyblades]

Every amendment in our Constitution is under attack. We are being occupied by a government that has no respect for the rule of law, yet demands increasing observance of increasingly more onerous laws from its citizens. Americans had a revolution for less and created something great. We need to punish these people at the ballot box. Lifelong Republicans support the police state? Vote them out. Lifelong Democrats? Vote them out. Party means nothing if the person is a traitor.

I plan on voting against My State Senator, House Rep, even though they are Republicans. I also plan to campaign against them for anyone else who promises better

I want heavier duty arms in the hands of citizens. The government has to have a plausible fear of overthrow, otherwise it acts with impunity. This is a danger. If the government had minimal laws to obey and didn't punish citizens for minor harmless activity, privacy wouldn't be as big of an issue. Until this is no longer a government that ruins peoples lives over smoking harmless plants, privacy is still important.

Where were you 6+ years ago.

[Lemur]

Where were you 6+ years ago.

The fact that this is an ongoing problem (spanning far more than a single administration, cf. Carnivore, NarusInsight, etc.) does not obviate the fact that it's a problem.

Even if all the NSA has been collecting for the past decade is metadata, it's still irritating and of questionable constitutionality.

Tu quoque is not a response, or even a coherent argument. And just because some of our Republican friends would have been okay with this level of invasive intel if it were performed by their guy doesn't make it okay, or their current objections meaningless.

And this is a bigger problem than a single agency gathering phone metadata. It's an inevitable result of the GWoT mindset, which we need to change in a big way.

[TinCow]

Ok, it was one thing when Uncle Sam was the one monitoring what porn I watched, but now apparently the Queen is doing so as well:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/busine...647_story.html

Britain’s Guardian newspaper says that the U.K. government has been secretly gathering communications data from American Internet giants through the medium of the U.S. National Security Agency.
The paper says that it has seen documents showing how the British eavesdropping agency GCHQ has had access to America’s “Prism” system since at least June 2010.
It says the program has generated 197 intelligence reports in the past year.

That's just rude. Will they try and convict me for taking a peek at those Kate pics?

[Greyblades]

Nah, they'd have to arrest half the western hemisphere for that.

Tu quoque is not a response, or even a coherent argument. And just because some of our Republican friends would have been okay with this level of invasive intel if it were performed by their guy doesn't make it okay, or their current objections meaningless.

Its not supposed to be an argument, I agree that stuff needs to be done (though, arming the populus is so stupid, I cant even... Ugh), I just cant miss an opportunity to call them out on it.

[Xiahou]

Nah, they'd have to arrest half the western hemisphere for that.

Its not supposed to be an argument, I agree that stuff needs to be done (though, arming the populus is so stupid, I cant even... Ugh), I just cant miss an opportunity to call them out on it.

I think you'd be surprised. I ranged from cool towards to opposed to this sort of thing from the beginning. And many of the more hawkish on the right still support these programs even when it's Obama doing it.

The amount of Republicans flip flopping on this is probably equivalent the the amount of Democrats who were frothing at the mouth over the Patriot Act under Bush that are now dismissive of people's concerns now that Obama is at the helm.

[Lemur]

The president is answering questions about this PRISM service! Yay!

-------------------------

Dear Verizon Customers,

Yesterday it came to light that the National Security Agency has been collecting millions of phone records from you each and every day. Since that news was released, many of you have called the White House with questions and concerns about this new program. To save my time and yours, here are answers to three of the F.A.Q.s (Frequently Asked Questions) we’ve been hearing from you:

1. Will I be charged extra for this service?

I’m happy to say that the answer is no. While the harvesting and surveillance of your domestic phone calls were not a part of your original Verizon service contract, the National Security Agency is providing this service entirely free of charge.

2. If I add a phone to my account, will those calls also be monitored?

Once again, the answer is good news. If you want to add a child or any other family member to your Verizon account, their phone calls—whom they called, when, and the duration of the call—will all be monitored by the United States government, at no additional cost.

3. Can the National Security Agency help me understand my Verizon bill?

Unfortunately, no. The National Security Agency has tried, but failed, to understand Verizon’s bills. Please call Verizon customer service and follow the series of electronic prompts.

I hope I’ve helped clear up some of the confusion about this exciting new program. But if you have any further questions, please don’t hesitate to call the White House. Joe Biden is standing by.

God bless America,

President Obama

[a completely inoffensive name]

I have no sympathy for the American people for letting it get to this point. Keep watching garbage tv and blaming the other side. If people actually mobilize and do something, great. If not, we have only ourselves to blame (collectively).

[Xiahou]

I have no sympathy for the American people for letting it get to this point. Keep watching garbage tv and blaming the other side. If people actually mobilize and do something, great. If not, we have only ourselves to blame (collectively).

So... are you including yourself in your lack of sympathy? Or have you mobilized/done something?

[a completely inoffensive name]

So... are you including yourself in your lack of sympathy? Or have you mobilized/done something?

Partly yes. But I have tried to do more.

1. I vote (which is more than a lot of people my age can say.)
2. I make the effort to talk about politics with friends because for some reason politics and religion seem to be complete taboos to talk about in a lot of social situations.
3. Back when I attended UCSC I tried to get people registered to vote and I printed out information for people living in the same dorms as me (they didn't read it).

But no one listens. Across the age spectrum. People my age either don't care or only want to make asses of themselves for a day in order to get some ass from the cute activist chicks. People older than me disregard anything I would have to say because obviously they know better. The only people who bother to talk either want the next words out of my mouth to be, "That damn Obama." or "Those damn Republicans." or they quickly learn I am not "one of them". I really don't care at this point.

To be honest, I became really disillusioned from my student gov. back at UCSC. Corruption, patting each other on the back and frivolous spending and these were the "idealists" who wanted to make the country a better place. I have kept track of it since I left and it actually has gotten a lot better, the right people are now in office which gives me hope.

But ultimately the problems I encountered from personal experience were propagated by internal cronyism, not the result of powerful external organizations meddling with their millions of dollars. With such self isolating people, is it any wonder that no one has any clue as to what the big picture looks like? When the American public realizes how much it has lost they will quickly realize that the only method of stopping and preventing such outcomes (a healthy public discourse) will be all but impossible under totalitarian surveillance.

[Montmorency]

So... are you including yourself in your lack of sympathy?

Perhaps he takes the sensible position of this policy being, at worst, no net detriment to himself or his highest supervenient state-unit.



Edit: Crud.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Actively change society? Good luck with that. I may vote for third parties, but I'll never vote for a Democrat or a Republican again. An honest look at the political system tells a simple story: Our government can do whatever it wants. Its not evil, but it is powerful and it does own you. We may still have active and functional democratic institutions on a state and local level, but national politics is theater only one step above reality TV. I don't know who pulls the strings, and I don't care. What matters is that our government is not about ideals, or love of country, or looking out for the people, or anything like that. Its about sustaining the bureaucracy. The world's Empires come and go in cycles, in my opinion, and its not too hard to see where we're at. The future isn't all that dark, but its also not that democratic.

In short, I see no reason to be all that participatory in national politics. When people start to look at Congress like a dangerous liability instead of just an embarrassment is when things will really get wierd.

I have said this before in other threads, but in order for people to stop becoming so apathetic to the system, they have to stop expecting things to be done on the Federal level. At the end of the day, average joe in California is not going to help LGBT people in Georgia by fighting for gay marriage in Congress. It just won't happen. Things happen both a lot quicker and a lot easier when people decide to make their stand on more local levels. Which is why gay marriage now actually has momentum behind it.

[Fragony]

Interview with whistleblower http://www.geenstijl.nl/mt/archieven....html#comments