Egypt

[HoreTore]

I wish I could type up a proper reply right now, but I am nearly passing out (almost 3am here). Maybe someone else will pick up where I left off while I sleep and go to class tomorrow. Nevertheless, I do believe that justice can be/is a spiritual affair. Doesn't seem very absurd to me as of this moment.

The absurdness comes from the fact that you've just created a definition of spirituality noone can ever escape. It is also so wide that if you're going to use it for anything, you can only apply a small field of it at a time. This small field will then have to apply to everyone, and that's a major problem, rendering the term useless and absurd.

Also, classes in July...? Holidays man, holidays!

[a completely inoffensive name]

The absurdness comes from the fact that you've just created a definition of spirituality noone can ever escape. It is also so wide that if you're going to use it for anything, you can only apply a small field of it at a time. This small field will then have to apply to everyone, and that's a major problem, rendering the term useless and absurd.

Also, classes in July...? Holidays man, holidays!

Hmm, I think I see what you are saying. Give me a day to think about it.

EDIT: Also, I purposely took summer classes so I could reduce my work load over the regular year. Also I still need distractions from my break up.

[Ironside]

I'm just saying, if he had so much empathy why were the first words out of his mouth "Oh god, I have it on video!" Only then did he go out of his way to display "sympathy."

I couldn't find the clip so I'm only going after what you say.

That would be complaining about false sympathy, which wasn't really there in the first post. And it's quite possible for it to take a while before reality sinks in, thus getting a strong shift in reaction.

Empathy doesn't require advertisement.

No, but a strong reaction would need very active suppression and a very strong reaction is pretty close to impossible to stop.

You've pretty much said that an American with a proper "heart" doesn't cry (like a girl) and always stand their ground in a fight (rather than trying to avoid it). It is incidently included in the "American man" image and also not really related to "self-sacrifice" and "honour" (compared to pride).

[HopAlongBunny]

Perhaps, for the USA, democracy is not enough:

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/fea...522489801.html

Looking to manufacture the "right kind" of democracy?

Now with a rebuttal, of sorts:
http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/fea...254181476.html

[Montmorency]

Minor Necro:

I enjoy that Panzerjaeger is one of the few here to espouse a realist approach, but it's not clear to me that Mubarak = Assad, or even that Egyptians = Syrians. Is there any indication that anything short of direct intervention by the US would have saved Mubarak? That a substantial part of the Army would have been willing to fight on his behalf even if the US had averred its support for him from Hour One?

I'm fairly confident that abandoning Mubarak publicly and speedily will be shown to have had a much better result for American foreign policy than would, at best, an embarrassing public plump for a notorious and easily deposed dictator, and at worst a brutal civil war with American troops on the ground leading to who-knows-what in Libya and Syria.

Mostly it's that the Age of Dictatorship is over, and the masses have once again become increasingly importunate with respect to their lifestyles and representation. Some dictators or autocratic regimes can continue to stand, sure, but it is no longer possible to guarantee one's survival with our aid, let alone politically tenable. Anyway, by now most of those remaining should be counted among the 'unfriendly' states - Russia, China, Iran, for instance - and a few unimportant ones such as Sri Lanka and North Korea. It no longer makes sense to fund dictatorships, and arguably it never did.

Geopolitical realism should no longer consider 'asshole bully' as a legitimate and effective strand of thought.

And it certainly belies the realist perspective to sweepingly dismiss the entire Middle East as a hopelessly tribal and authoritarian region that will remain so for centuries to come. Realism demands far more than artificial generalizations to regional character based more on elitist prejudice than coherent trends.

In sum, you make misleading equivalencies regarding the peoples of the Middle East, overestimate both Mubarak's usefulness to us and the strength of his position, and overstate the value and feasibility of enforced clientilism to the US in the 21st century.

Also, to return to Libya: Widespread dispersal of military hardware, Boko Haram, Benghazi, Mali, Niger, Al-Qaeda in Libya, etc. may all stem from this particular conflict, and continuing bad news from the region may in time vindicate your gainsaying, but it seems to me a little strange that

1. Black Africans are being reduced to refugee status by the rebels, so we should withhold support and let, if not help, the dictator overwhelm them. We must not support agents of human-rights abuse. Qaddafi is not our enemy, and we might yet make an ally of him by preserving his hide.

2. Massive popular protests are threatening Mubarak's position, so we must do everything we can to make sure that they are brutally suppressed. Mubarak is our friend, and we should be seen to be helping our friends.

It's a similar argument that you made, but in that ideological light your intense focus on the 'plight' of the black Africans seems downright meretricious.

[Fragony]

Kewl, over a hundred people got killed yesterday. Gutmensch who is morally and intellectually superior knows, for a fact, that it is an arab spring. Hey EU, there are still 1.000.000.000 euro's you gave to the muslim brotherhood that are kinda gone. Can you please get that back before they rain down on the jews, who are apes and pigs according to Morsi. People who read quality media can't know that, but he does say that on Palestinian tv

Taqiyayaya

[Major Robert Dump]

Man things are getting bad over there. Someone really needs to make a high-profile insult against the prophet so they can all come together

[Fragony]

I kinda like it really, the muslim brotherhood and it's supporters leftist islamphiles so deeply admire are scum. Maybe we are actually seeing change in Egypt that is for the better.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Well Morsi and the Brotherhood did demonstrate an inability to tame some of their more Islamist tendencies.

But let's not overlook what the Army is doing - massacres, denials, mass incarceration of political opponents etc.

IMO neither Islamism nor Army rule is what any Middle Eastern country needs. Some sort of power sharing would be best here I believe.

[rvg]

Well Morsi and the Brotherhood did demonstrate an inability to tame some of their more Islamist tendencies.

I don't think he had any desire to tame them. If anything, he encouraged them.

But let's not overlook what the Army is doing - massacres, denials, mass incarceration of political opponents etc.

So we're back to Bashar vs Al-Nusra.

IMO neither Islamism nor Army rule is what any Middle Eastern country needs. Some sort of power sharing would be best here I believe.

That would be best, it's just a matter of how achievable that is.

[Fragony]

Well Morsi and the Brotherhood did demonstrate an inability to tame some of their more Islamist tendencies.

Testing the water, they may be crazy but they aren't stupid

[Fragony]

Looks like the EU is dissapointed the muslim brotherhood got adieud, Lady Ashton -> Egypt. Where was the international-socialism at the riots before the installment of Morsi, and why did the international-socialism give the muslim brotherhood a shitload of money. But of course the Eurabia-theory is pure nonsense

[Rhyfelwyr]

Looks like the EU is dissapointed the muslim brotherhood got adieud, Lady Ashton -> Egypt. Where was the international-socialism at the riots before the installment of Morsi, and why did the international-socialism give the muslim brotherhood a shitload of money. But of course the Eurabia-theory is pure nonsense

Maybe you should look into some of the funding going towards the Army and the Tamarod movement.

[Fragony]

Maybe you should look into some of the funding going towards the Army and the Tamarod movement.

Can I please be a hypocrite?

[Rhyfelwyr]

Can I please be a hypocrite?

OK.

[rvg]

278 people dead... This is civil war territory or darn close to that.

[Fragony]

lol at leftist intellectulocos who knew, for a fact, that it's an arab spring. Wrong as usual. What leftist intellectulocos will never understand is that they simply don't get it

[Papewaio]

The French Revolution took ten years. Some of the most violent towards the end.

So the Arab spring still has nine to go.

[Fragony]

Oh common, it just isn't what some thought it was. Almost 800 dead in a few weeks, 9 years to go?

Edit, in the meantime, video of the execution of two kids by allahu akhbar screaming beards surfaced. Not Egypt though Syria has an arab spring as well

[Vuk]

The military is doing the right thing. The more jihadis they kill the better. We aught to be helping them, not condemning them.

[Fragony]

Yay, leftist intellectuals know, for a fact, that it's an arab spring, and they know, for a fact, that the brotherhood is moderate. 74 attacks on koptic schools and churches in just a few days. Wrong as usual.

I want to know why the international-socialism wired 5 billion to the brotherhood, Eurabia-theory of Bat Y'or comes to mind

[a completely inoffensive name]

As long as Egypt has a stable, secular government in the end, I don't care what it takes to get to that point. You need a sufficient middle class for a successful transition to liberal democracy. It is obvious that any group which bases its politics off of Islamic ideals is a greater threat to liberty and stability than their competitors.

[HoreTore]

You need a sufficient middle class for a successful transition to liberal democracy.

This really doesn't have much to do with Egypt specifically, but I object to this statement.

I'd rather say that you need an urbanized, industrialized and organized working class in order to create a functioning democracy. I believe the history of Europe shows that well; we didn't get a proper democracy until the majority of the population belonged to the organized working class, living in cities and working in factories.

When they were working on farms, we only had the version of democracy Marx called the dictatorship of the bourgeoisie, a very fitting description.

[HoreTore]

Yay, leftist intellectuals know, for a fact, that it's an arab spring, and they know, for a fact, that the brotherhood is moderate. 74 attacks on koptic schools and churches in just a few days. Wrong as usual.

I want to know why the international-socialism wired 5 billion to the brotherhood, Eurabia-theory of Bat Y'or comes to mind

Batty bat y'eor is the perfect example of a complete whackjob, she hasn't been right about anything in her entire life.

Anyway frags, since you know that the "left wing intellectuals" were wrong about everything concerning the arab spring, would you care to share a peer-reviewed, academic paper which shows just how wrong they are?

[rvg]

Anyway frags, since you know that the "left wing intellectuals" were wrong about everything concerning the arab spring, would you care to share a peer-reviewed, academic paper which shows just how wrong they are?

Who would bother researching how wrong the leftists are?

[a completely inoffensive name]

This really doesn't have much to do with Egypt specifically, but I object to this statement.

I'd rather say that you need an urbanized, industrialized and organized working class in order to create a functioning democracy. I believe the history of Europe shows that well; we didn't get a proper democracy until the majority of the population belonged to the organized working class, living in cities and working in factories.

When they were working on farms, we only had the version of democracy Marx called the dictatorship of the bourgeoisie, a very fitting description.

Industrialization brings about a middle class. Political activism arises out of a lack of concern towards more necessary issues such as food, water and shelter. This happens only when you make enough money for such necessities to be satisfied on a day to day basis.

The French got their republic when they had a stable paycheck that supported them and their family. They got the Reign of Terror and Napoleon when they were still farmers of subsistence. Merely living next to a bunch of people and working in a factory does nothing to support a liberal democracy. In fact I would suggest that if the industrialized, urbanized, and organized New Yorkers of the 1880s had their way, the US would have been very illiberal, (especially to the blacks and Irish) for a time until there was enough jobs and money to go around for everyone.

[Fragony]

Batty bat y'eor is the perfect example of a complete whackjob, she hasn't been right about anything in her entire life.

Anyway frags, since you know that the "left wing intellectuals" were wrong about everything concerning the arab spring, would you care to share a peer-reviewed, academic paper which shows just how wrong they are?

Why would I have to do such a thing when it's right in your face. There is no need.

Wrong as usual.

Bat Y'or aint no whackjob by the way, leftist intellectuals just can't stand it that she is proven right again and again. What did the international-socialism do the minute the brotherhood came to power? They wired them billions of euro's. You just don't like her, that doesn't make her a whackjob. Islamorealists saw this comming, and gutmensch doesn't like it that they themselves once again got it all wrong.

[Brenus]

“The French got their republic when they had a stable paycheck that supported them and their family. They got the Reign of Terror and Napoleon when they were still farmers of subsistence”: Err, not really but I won’t discuss about your strange point of view… 1798, the First Revolution, came because the Political Powers was not able to resolve a very concrete problem. The Monarchist Institution was not able to resolve the problem of Finances, so the Human Way to deal with blockade is to break them. Then, like most of the time, the resolution of the problem generates a political agenda. In the case of the French 1st Revolution, taxes had to be approved by a representative (so elected) Parliament, hence the end of the absolute Monarchy (in short).
As Farmers and Revolutions, the other French Revolutions (successes or defeats) went on during Industrialisation Times.

[a completely inoffensive name]

“The French got their republic when they had a stable paycheck that supported them and their family. They got the Reign of Terror and Napoleon when they were still farmers of subsistence”: Err, not really but I won’t discuss about your strange point of view… 1798, the First Revolution, came because the Political Powers was not able to resolve a very concrete problem. The Monarchist Institution was not able to resolve the problem of Finances, so the Human Way to deal with blockade is to break them. Then, like most of the time, the resolution of the problem generates a political agenda. In the case of the French 1st Revolution, taxes had to be approved by a representative (so elected) Parliament, hence the end of the absolute Monarchy (in short).
As Farmers and Revolutions, the other French Revolutions (successes or defeats) went on during Industrialisation Times.

It wasn't until 1870 after decades of industrialization and the increasing presence of wage labor that a French Republic stuck around longer than a decade. Napoleon I and III were absolute dictators (emperors) and were supported by the masses because the only thing the masses wanted back then was a steady supply of food. What I am saying is that by the latter half of the 19th century, the concerns of the common man were able to go beyond subsistence and actually hit upon the issue of political freedom in more than name only. This is because wage labor and industrialization allowed for individuals to not worry about whether or not they will be fed which gives them time to think about other, more abstract concerns.

[Major Robert Dump]

So last week the fools in Washington overwhelmingly vote not to stop military and financial assistance to the Egypt government. Now they are doing an about face upon seeing American tanks rolling over civilians.

Everything US Foreign Policy touches turns to poop.