the Canaanites were aware of god and his power josh2 9-11 9 9-10 they all new the miracles of god with isreal coming out of egypt and it is said were even afraid of isreal.
Israelite's were not forced to go to war
In Deuteronomy 20 1-9 it list numbers of reasons that a Israelite would not have to go to war.
Paul Copan Debates With Norman Bacrac On The Topic "Is God A Moral Monster?"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idCch7fjO1k
http://www.paulcopan.com/new/
Assumptions/things to consider before answering.
Atheist must put themselves in place as god, as perfect judge of people living thousands of years ago, to decided what is morally correct or not.
1] we must assume we are god, that only we can tell and know what is morally acceptable or not.
2] we must assume their are such things as morals, “right” and “wrong” those ideas only make sense if a moral god created us.
3]we must assume our evolved brains of completely random chemical reactions and matter can somehow have the right idea of what is right and wrong, our evolved animal brains formed by random chemical reactions and matter [dirt] that combined for a survival advantage[according to atheist]. They only “feel” killing is wrong because the random chemical reactions give them a chemical feeling that killing is wrong.
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...ity&highlight=
is god not able to take life he has given?
Sins of the Canaanites
child sacrifice
http://www.ox.ac.uk/media/news_stori.../140123_1.html
You must not worship the LORD your God in their way, because in worshiping their gods, they do all kinds of detestable things the LORD hates. They even burn their sons and daughters in the fire as sacrifices to their gods.
Deuteronomy 12.31
36 They worshiped their idols,
which became a snare to them.
37 They sacrificed their sons
and their daughters to false gods.
38 They shed innocent blood,
the blood of their sons and daughters,
whom they sacrificed to the idols of Canaan,
and the land was desecrated by their blood.
39 They defiled themselves by what they did;
by their deeds they prostituted themselves.
Psalm 106 36-38
Child sacrifice.#Molech was a Canaanite underworld deity14#represented as an upright, bullheaded idol with a human body in whose belly a fire was stoked and in whose outstretched arms a child was placed that would be burned to death. The victims were not only infants; children as old as four were sacrificed.15#Kleitarchos reported that “as the flame burning the child surrounded the body, the limbs would shrivel up and the mouth would appear to grin as if laughing, until it was shrunk enough to slip into the cauldron.”16
14 John Day,#Molech: A God of Human Sacrifice in the Old Testament#(Cambridge: Cambridge University, 1989), 62.
15 Shelby Brown,#Late Carthaginian Child Sacrifice and Sacrificial Monuments in Their Mediterranean Context#(Sheffield, England: Sheffield Academic, 1991), 14.
16 Kleitarchos, Scholia on Plato’s#Republic#337A as quoted in Day, 87.
http://www.equip.org/articles/killing-the-canaanites/
“Funerary jars have been found with the bodies of young children distorted by suffocation as they struggled for life after having been buried alive as a sacrifice to Canaanite gods. Such young children have been found in the foundation pillars of Canaanite houses, and sometimes religious ceremonies were associated with their sacrifice....“The Canaanite religion was a horribly brutal system as well. For instance, the goddess Anath is pictured as killing humans by the thousands and wading knee-deep in blood. She cut off heads and hands and wore them as ornaments. And in all of this gruesomeness, the Baal-epic says that her liver was swollen with laughter and her joy was great.”
(Wilson, 1973, p. 85). Wayne Jackson, M.A.#Old Testament events and the goodness of Godhttp://www.christiancourier.com/articles/467-old-testament-events-and-the-goodness-of-
The most significant part of the American excavations [at Carthage] occurred in the#Tophet.The word#Tophet#comes from the Old Testament (e.g., 2 Kgs 23:10; Jer 7:30–32), referring to a place of child sacrifice and burial. Modern excavators applied the term#Tophet#to a cemetery we excavated bearing remains of children who had been ritually sacrificed as burnt offerings. It is the largest sacrificial cemetery ever found, measuring at least 60,000 square feet. Most stunning is the number of children sacrificed here—estimated at a minimum of 20,000 burials between 400–200 BC during only one-third the life of the cemetery!#
The excavators named the [archaeological] periods after Tanit, the Canaanite goddess of love and war. Child sacrifices at Carthage were dedicated to her and to the god Baal Hamon, a name that means “Lord of the Brazier.” They were brother and sister, as well as husband and wife!Carthaginians were descendants of Canaanites.
John Currid.#Abortion: Child Sacrifice Today?#Bible and Spade#(Winter 2012, 13)
For quote of Canaanite second nature discussing child sacrifice
p71 the origin of the american indian populations joc 26 [11] 2012
Canaanites initiated attacks on Israel first.
The Canaanites initiated the attacks on Israel when Israel was defenseless killing children and woman elderly, Deuteronomy 25 17-18 ex 17 8-13 num 21.1 21-26 33-35 dut 2 26-37 3 1-22
Bestiality.
#Probably the ultimate sexual depravity is intercourse with animals. Hittite Laws: 199 states, “If anyone has intercourse with a pig or a dog, he shall die. If a man has intercourse with a horse or a mule, there is no punishment.”18#As with incest, the penalty for having sex with animals decreased about the fourteenth century BC.
Harry A. Hoffner, Jr., “Incest, Sodomy and Bestiality in the Ancient Near East,” in#Orient and Occident: Essays Presented to Cyrus H. Gordon on the Occasion of His Sixty-fifth Birthday, ed. Harry A. Hoffner, Jr. (Neukirchen Vluyn, Germany: Neukirchener Verlag, 1973), 82.
There should be no surprise that bestiality would occur among the Canaanites, since their gods practiced it. From the Canaanite epic poem “The Baal Cycle” we learn: “Mightiest Baal hears / He makes love with a heifer in the outback / A cow in the field of Death’s Realm. / He lies with her seventy times seven / Mounts eighty times eight / [She conceiv]es and bears a boy.”
Mark S. Smith, trans.#Ugaritic Narrative Poetry, ed. Simon B. Parker (Atlanta: Society of Biblical Literature, 1997), 148.
There were absolutely no prohibitions against bestiality in the rest of the ANE.21#In fact, in an Egyptian dream book it was a bad omen for a woman to dream about embracing her husband, but good things would happen if she dreamed of intercourse with a baboon, wolf, or he-goat.22#In short, their sexual fantasies involved everything that breathes.
incest.
#Like all Ancient Near East (ANE) pantheons, the Canaanite pantheon was incestuous. Baal has sex with his mother Asherah,#his sister Anat, and his daughter Pidray,#and none of this is presented pejoratively.
For the story of Baal having sex with Asherah, see: “El, Ashertu and the Storm-god,” trans. Albrecht Goetze, ed. James B. Pritchard,#The Ancient Near East: Supplementary Texts and Pictures Relating to the Old Testament#(Princeton, N.J.: Princeton University, 1969), 519.
7 W. F. Albright,#Yahweh and the Gods of Canaan: A Historical Analysis of Two Contrasting Faiths(Winona Lake, IN: Eisenbrauns, 1968), 145.
http://www.equip.org/articles/killing-the-canaanites/
Adultery.
#Canaanite religion, like that of all of the ANE, was a fertility religion that involved temple sex. Inanna/Ishtar, also known as the Queen of Heaven, “became the woman among the gods, patron of eroticism and sensuality, of conjugal love as well as adultery, of brides and prostitutes, transvestites and pederasts.”10#As University of Helsinki professor Martti Nissinen writes, “Sexual contact with a person whose whole life was devoted to the goddess was tantamount to union with the goddess herself.”
10 Gwendolyn Leick,#Sex and Eroticism in Mesopotamian Literature#(New York: Routledge, 1994), 57.
11Martti Nissinen,#Homoeroticism in the Biblical World: A Historical Perspective, trans. Kirsi Stjerna (Minneapolis: Fortress, 1998), 33.
In there temple, woman prostitutes would be chained up against the wall and men would come and have sex with them.
The fall of Jericho dvd 2009 .
http://www.biblearchaeology.org/book...uct.aspx?id=89
Homosexuality.
#No ANE text condemns homosexuality. Additionally, some ANE manuscripts talk about “party-boys and festival people who changed their masculinity into femininity to make the people of Ishtar revere her.
Stephanie Dalley, “Erra and Ishum IV,”#Myths from Mesopotamia#(Oxford: Oxford University, 1989), 305.
Concerning the Canaanite cities of Sodom and Gomorrah
#Later Lot’s own daughters get him drunk to have sex with him and so even Dawkins, in a surprising moment of moral clarity, writes, “If this dysfunctional family was the best Sodom had to offer by way of morals, some might begin to feel a certain sympathy with God and his judicial brimstone.”
what did god order Israel to do?
No were in ot does offensive military initiative with purpose of conversion or Territory expansion.
upon entering the land Israel simply asked for safe passage and were than attacked first by Canaanites Deuteronomy 25 17-18 numbers 17-18 21.1 21 21-24 21.33 20 14-17
Israel was required to make peace offerings to cities in cannan from a distance dt 20 10-16.
later Israel and Canaanites lived side by side in peace 1 sam 7.14.
The nations in cannan were given 4 options
1] leave- some left
2] war
3] join isreal
4]make peace treaty
any Canaanite city could surrender and would be shown mercy,josh 2, rahab and family were saved Canaanites joined Israel 6.23. some Canaanites were absorbed into Israel rahab and 1 chronicles 21.15,18,28. In Joshua 8 Canaanites are welcomed into the people of god.
http://www.paulcopan.com/new/
Abraham the father of Israel, was a pagan worshiping Canaanite before his conversion. Josh 24.2 acts 7.2.
In matt 15 Jesus ministers to a Canaanite woman. Jesus genealogy shows he descended from a Canaanite rahab.
Book of jonah is about god sending prophet to go to a Canaanite city to warn of judgment,turn from evil and repent, they do and god accepts.
Drive out not kill
Isreal was to drive out Canaanites not annihilate num 21.32 33.52 dt 9.1 11.23 18.14 19.1 ex 23.28 lev 10.24 num 33.52 etc just as adam and eve were “driven out” of the garden of Eden gen 4.14
If Israel did not drive them out they would join in there religion sacrificing child etc num 33.55.
Talking with Paul Copan about Genocide in Old Testament
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4lap_BdOJQo
http://www.paulcopan.com/new/
Deuteronomy#12.29-30:
#
The LORD your God will cut off before you the nations you are about to invade and dispossess. But#when you have driven them out and settled in their land,#and after they have been destroyed before you, be careful not to be ensnared by inquiring about their gods, saying, "How do these nations serve their gods? We will do the same."
Note that some inhabitants would be driven out, implying that they would continue to live and be allowed to settle elsewhere. Some would be destroyed. The Biblical references show that the primary purpose was to drive the Canaanites out of the land, not annihilate all the people.#
4 “Do not think in your heart, after the LORD your God has cast them out before you, saying, ‘Because of my righteousness the LORD has brought me in to possess this land’; but it is because of the wickedness of these nations that the LORD is driving them out from before you.
Deuteronomy 9:4
they were not to just go fight anyone to take land
The land belongs to god and Israel,so they were taking there land back. God gave them 400 years to repent of there sins. The land was
originally Abraham and his descendants,before conquest of Canaanites genesis 13 14-17. However, Abraham could not have land until the sins of Canaanites was so bad, that they deserved their fate 400 years later genesis 15 13-16 also Deuteronomy 9.5. If isreal committed the same kind of sins as Canaanites [later would] they too would be kicked out of land Leviticus 18 24-28.
42#But the Lord said to me, “Tell them, ‘Do not go up and fight, because I will not be with you. You will be defeated by your enemies.’”
Deuteronomy 1.42
5#Do not provoke them to war, for I will not give you any of their land, not even enough to put your foot on. I have given Esau the hill country of Seir as his own.
Deuteronomy 2.5 also 2.9 and 2.19
God didn’t just fight for Israel but for other nations as well, and even forbade Israel from ever thinking of trying to fight these people in order to take their lands away:
"Then the LORD said to me, ‘You have been going about this mountain country long enough; turn northward. And command the people, You are about to pass through the territory of your brethren the sons of Esau, who live in Se'ir; and they will be afraid of you. So take good heed; do not contend with them;#for I will not give you any of their land, no, not so much as for the sole of the foot to tread on,#because I have given Mount Se'ir to Esau as a possession. You shall purchase food from them for money, that you may eat; and you shall also buy water of them for money, that you may drink. For the LORD your God has blessed you in all the work of your hands; he knows your going through this great wilderness; these forty years the LORD your God has been with you; you have lacked nothing. So we went on, away from our brethren the sons of Esau who live in Se'ir, away from the Arabah road from Elath and E'zion-ge'ber. And we turned and went in the direction of the wilderness of Moab. And the LORD said to me, ‘Do not harass Moab or contend with them in battle,#for I will not give you any of their land for a possession, because I have given Ar to the sons of Lot for a possession.’ (The Emim formerly lived there, a people great and many, and tall as the Anakim; like the Anakim they are also known as Reph'aim, but the Moabites call them Emim. The Horites also lived in Se'ir formerly, but the sons of Esau dispossessed them, and destroyed them from before them, and settled in their stead; as Israel did to the land of their possession, which the LORD gave to them.) ‘Now rise up, and go over the brook Zered.’ So we went over the brook Zered. And the time from our leaving Ka'desh-bar'nea until we crossed the brook Zered was thirty-eight years, until the entire generation, that is, the men of war, had perished from the camp, as the LORD had sworn to them. For indeed the hand of the LORD was against them, to destroy them from the camp, until they had perished. So when all the men of war had perished and were dead from among the people, the LORD said to me, ‘This day you are to pass over the boundary of Moab at Ar; and when you approach the frontier of the sons of Ammon, do not harass them or contend with them,#for I will not give you any of the land of the sons of Ammon as a possession, because I have given it to the sons of Lot for a possession.’ (That also is known as a land of Reph'aim; Reph'aim formerly lived there, but the Ammonites call them Zamzum'mim, a people great and many, and tall as the Anakim;#but the LORD destroyed them before them; and they dispossessed them, and settled in their stead;#as he did for the sons of Esau, who live in Se'ir, when he destroyed the Horites before them, and they dispossessed them, and settled in their stead even to this day. As for the Avvim, who lived in villages as far as Gaza, the Caph'torim, who came from Caphtor, destroyed them and settled in their stead.)" Deuteronomy 2:2-23
Judgment falls on Canaanites.
war was limited in time/space/area.
The war was limited in time and space and area.,lasting primarily one generation. The goal of the conquest was to remove the Canaanites from the land not to kill them.. Some stayed and fought so were killed. The war was against Canaanite religion not its people Deuteronomy 12.23.
conquest was limited in time and space, Israel was not to continue on in war.
So Joshua took the entire land,#just as the#Lord#had directed Moses, and he gave it as an inheritance#to Israel according to their tribal divisions.#Then the land had rest#from war.
Joshua 11.23
Deuteronomy 20.16 limits “holy war” to the promise land. Only people who did not have right or title to land would be dispossessed,Unlike edom dut 2.4 23.7 and moab/ammon dut 2.9,19 gen 12-12 promises isreal the land gen 13 14-17.
Only 3 cities were mentioned as being destroyed jericho,ai,hazor joshua 6.24 8.28 11.11,13
Judgment because of sin and moral behavior.
none of the OT wars were fought with the purpose of forcibly converting the pagans to the religion of Israel. God commanded these wars for the specific purpose of punishment and judgment
Canaanites destruction was not genocide or racism but because of moral behavior. God is judge of man, does not order killing out of malice or lawlessness Deuteronomy 32.4. The conquest was not against Canaanite people, but there practices, anyone [Israelite or not] who followed the same [moral behavior] in the land, would revive judgment.
4 “Do not think in your heart, after the LORD your God has cast them out before you, saying, ‘Because of my righteousness the LORD has brought me in to possess this land’; but it is because of the wickedness of these nations that the LORD is driving them out from before you.
Deuteronomy 9:4
god judges for no other reason than the sins of the people amos 1-2, God did not hate the Canaanites but the crimes they committed.
sam shamoun
the Bible reveals that God punished the Canaanites for specific grievous evils. Also, this wasn’t the entire destruction of a race as God didn’t order that every Canaanite be killed but only those who lived within specific geographical boundaries (Josh. 1:4). Canaanite tribes (especially the Hittites) greatly exceeded the boundaries that Israel was told to conquer. And since, as we will see, He punished Israel when they committed the same sins, what happened to the Canaanites was not genocide, but capital punishment.
http://www.equip.org/articles/killing-the-canaanites/
same judgment would fall on Israel if they followed Canaanite practices
#The native-born and the aliens living among you must not do any of these detestable things,#for all these things were done by the people who lived in the land before you, and the land became defiled. And if you defile the land, it will vomit you out as it vomited out the nations that were before you. Everyone who does any of these detestable things—such persons must be cut off from their people. Keep my requirements and do not follow any of the detestable customs that were practiced before you came and do not defile yourselves with them. I am the LORD your God."’" Leviticus 18:1-30
was it right of god to judge?/can a loving god judge the death penalty on someone?it is because god loves that he judges
Given the sins of the Canaanites,yes.
Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil;
Who put darkness for light, and light for darkness;
Who put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
Isiah 5.20
a group that practiced today what Canaanites did, even in liberal west would not be tolerated in society.
gods actions during the conquest were a result of love for the victims, and his nature as being a perfect sinless judge. For there to be truly a loving god who hates evil and sin, he must also be a judge of sin.
I used to think that wrath was unworthy of God. Isn't God love? Shouldn't divine love be beyond wrath? ?God is love,and God loves every person and every creature. That's exactly why God is wrathful against some of them. My last resistance to the idea of God's wrath was a casualty of the war in the former Yugoslavia, a region from which I come. According to some estimates, 200,000 people were killed, and over 3,000,000 were displaced. My villages and cities were destroyed, my people shelled day in and day out, some of them brutalize beyond imagination, and I could not imagine God not being angry. Or think of Rwanda in the last decade of the past century, where 800,000 people were hacked to death in one hundred days! How did God react to the carnage? By doting on the perpetrators in a grandfatherly fashion? By refusing to condemn the bloodbath but instead affirming th perpetrators' basic goodness? Wasn't God fiercely angry with them? Though I used to complain about the indecency of the idea of God's wrath, I cam to thin that I would have to rebel against a God who wasn't wrathful at the sight of the world' evil. God isn't wrathful in spite of being love. God is wrathful because God is love (Miroslav Volf as quoted in Is God a Moral Monster? by Paul Copan, 192).
proclaiming, "The LORD, the LORD, the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness, 7 maintaining love to thousands, and forgiving wickedness, rebellion and sin. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished
exodus 34 6-7
A major objection to bible is were is god when bad things happen? How can a loving god allow such things like child sacrifice?. So why is it when god does act in judgment against sin, than all sudden he is immoral and evil?. The problem is not with gods perfect judgment of people hearts, but with the unrepentant sinners heart, that will reject god no matter what.
“Would you discredit my justice?
Would you condemn me to justify yourself?
Job 40.8
I like a point a friend of mine made about this. One Skeptic asked why God simply did not kill Hitler as a baby. Yet if "baby Hitler" had died, the Skeptic would ask why God did not prevent the death of this innocent baby. This shows that a far more critical view is needed than "argument by outrage." Indeed, "argument by outrage" often assumes a form of omniscience by the critic.
Or I think this applies as well, either god is in trouble for judging and called evil, or he is unjust for allowing bad to happen.
“As I read and re-read all the non-Christian or anti-Christian accounts of the faith … a slow and awful impression grew gradually but graphically upon my mind—the impression that Christianity must be a most extraordinary thing. For not only (as I understood) had Christianity the most flaming vices, but it had apparently a mystical talent for combining vices which seemed inconsistent with each other. It was attacked on all sides and for all contradictory reasons. No sooner had one rationalist demonstrated that it was too far to the east than another demonstrated with equal clearness that it was much too far to the west.”On the one hand, they ‘proved’ Christianity was “a thing of inhuman gloom”, but then they proved that Christianity “was a great deal too optimistic.” Christianity supposedly caused overpopulation by “Go forth and multiply” (Genesis 1:28), but then it was supposedly anti-sex. Another of Chesterton’s examples was:“Or, again, certain phrases in the Epistles or the marriage service, were said by the anti-Christians to show contempt for woman’s intellect. But I found that the anti-Christians themselves had a contempt for woman’s intellect; for it was their great sneer at the Church on the Continent that ‘only women’ went to it.”
#G.K. Chesterton
The Canaanites had 400 years to repent of there sins [gen 15 13-16 ]such as child sacrifice, the ones that remained if left alive would have carried on there culture [exampled African Americans in America not comparing the two in any way just continue of culture] so while the death of anyone is bad and death itself is bad given circumstances it was better than alternative [example Hitler] .Israel stayed in slavery for over 200 years until the Canaanites sin was so great, that they deserved there fate.
If we were in the same situation just as the victims for over 400 years, we would say I dont believe in god or a loving god,otherwise he would not allow these horrible things to happen.
The opposite of love is not anger,but hate. God is angry at things that destroy his creation and his love for us.
If God Weren't Angry...
http://www.christianpost.com/news/if...t-angry-80980/
gods actions were out of love, even the ordered killings of the cannnaites.
When I was a child, my father beat me, left my mom, and once killed a defenseless animal with his bare hands. With that information you could be quite justified in saying that my father was an abusive pig of a man.
http://www.answersingenesis.org/arti...create-mankind
God fights in compassion to defend the oppressed, and in anger against the oppressor
p133-151Holy War in the Bible:#Christian Morality and an Old Testament Problem Heath A. Thomas#(Editor),#Jeremy Evans#(Editor),#Paul Copan#(Editor)
only god is perfect judge
god judges by what is deserved based on crimes jer 50.29 ps 137. 8,15 Isiah 40.2,God is judge of man, does not order killing out of malice or lawlessness Deuteronomy 32.4.
other reasons for judgment
The bible says if Canaanites were left to intermingle with Isreal, they would have converted them to there practices and destroyed gods plan and messianic line. So either all die and go to hell, or they are destroyed. Its like if Hitler had been left alone to kill all jews,accept being more important and killing off the messianic line before jesus was born. Some say now that messiah/Israel has been established Jesus on cross etc there is know only non violence and no need for war. This is somewhat true, god acts on any interference with messiah.
If Israel did not drive them out they would join in there religion sacrificing children etc num 33.55.
what of the victims? For over 400 years the Canaanites continued in there sins.
If we were in the same situation just as the victims for over 400 years, we would say I dont believe in god or a loving god,otherwise he would not allow these horrible things to happen.
As when bad things happen and god does not step in many say.
“All who do evil are good in the eyes of the Lord, and he is pleased with them” or “Where is the God of justice?”
malachi 2.17
They called out in a loud voice, “How long,#Sovereign Lord,#holy and true,#until you judge the inhabitants of the earth#and avenge our blood?”#
revelations 6.10.
"in holy wars Israel did not arise to protect faith in Yahweh, but Yahweh came on the scene to defend Israel"
Holy War in the Bible:#Christian Morality and an Old Testament Problem Heath A. Thomas#(Editor),#Jeremy Evans#(Editor),#Paul Copan#(Editor)
God fights in compassion to defend the oppressed, and in anger against the oppressor
p133-151Holy War in the Bible:#Christian Morality and an Old Testament Problem Heath A. Thomas#(Editor),#Jeremy Evans#(Editor),#Paul Copan#(Editor)
Death is not gods way and not normal or wanted by god, god wanted forgiveness and repentance.
bible teaches peace first,not war.
7#If at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom, that I will pluck up and break down and destroy it, 8#and if that nation, concerning which I have spoken, turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I intended to do to it. 9#And if at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom that I will build and plant it, 10#and if it does evil in my sight, not listening to my voice, then I will relent of the good that I had intended to do to it.
Jeremiah 18 7-10
"'Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked?,' says the Lord God, 'And not rather that he should turn from his way and live? For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone,' says the Lord God. 'So turn and live! Say to them, "As I live," says the Lord God, "I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways. For why will you die?"'" (Ez. 18.23,32; 33.11).
"The Lord is not willing that any should perish but that all should reach repentance" (2Pet. 3.9).
"He desires all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth" (1Tim. 2.4).
God personally suffers with human sin/judgment jer 9.9 12.7-9 15 5-9 48 29-53 Ezekiel 27 3-11 26-36.Isiah 15.5 16 9-11 jer 9.10 17-18 31.20 48 30-36
god suffers for humanity Isiah 15 42 23-24 48.9 57.11 jer 15.6 Ezekiel 20 21-11 24.12 mal 2.17.
God punishing in war does not make it good,but he will for good outcome.
sometimes the death of someone is good in certain circumstances,sep 11 the president gave orders to shoot down planes-to save lives that the terrorist could have used to kill more innocent lives. Sometimes judges give the death penalty to certain murders,but we dont call them murders we call them good just judges.
in 1 ch 28.3 king David is not the one allowed to build the temple because he has to much blood on his hands[ he killed to many people] even though they were god ordered killings, death is still a bad thing and not normal or natural part of life.
men woman children?All killed?
Reason conquest hyperbole and other parts literal p 238-239-Holy War in the Bible: Christian Morality and an Old Testament Problem
biblical theology teaches, god is loving and would not unjustly command killing innocent people.
When god destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah in genesis he said he would not destroy it until all good people were out.
We know god does not kill innocent blood
`Thus says the#LORD, "Do justice and righteousness, and deliver the one who has been robbed from the power of his oppressor. Also do not mistreat or do violence to the stranger, the orphan, or the widow; and do not shed innocent blood in this place.
Jeremiah 22.3
These six#things#the#Lord#hates,
Yes, seven#are#an abomination to Him:
17#A proud look,
A lying tongue,
Hands that shed innocent blood,
proverbs 6 16-17
hyperbole language/attacks on military forts,not civilian populations,describe total destruction/victory in battle.
Multiple examples of similar not literal battle counts p 216-217
watch how fast atheist run from the claim god ordered destruction of entire villages, people, kill all inside etc
debate is god a moral monster? Paul Copan & Norman Bacrac
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idCch7fjO1k
Sports players says they slaughtered the other team, that is hyperbole.
“all destroyed” and “all killed “ “men,woman child,young old” is typical language of day and not literal.
conquest of Canaan uses hyperbolic language such as “all”common in bible example, jesus says of the generation he was on earth in human form that it was a evil and adulterers generation and all were bad, yet other times he calls individuals righteous .
The sweeping words like “all,” “young and old,” and “man and woman,” however, are stock expressions for totality — even if women and children were not present. The expression “men and women” or similar phrases appear to be stereotypical for describing all the inhabitants of a town or region, “without predisposing the reader to assume anything further about their ages or even their genders.”
Christopher C.J. Wright, Old Testament Ethics for the People of God (Downers Grove, Illinois: InterVarsity, 2004), 474–75; Iain Provan, V. Philips Long, Tremper Longman III, A Biblical History of Israel (Louisville: Westminster John Knox Press, 2003), 149.
stereotypical language of ancient near east, attacks likely on military forts and garrisons, no archeological evidence for people civilians in territories such as jericho or Ai these were military forts
p 175 is god a moral monster paul copan
"without predisposing the reader to assume anything further about age or gender use of woman young old is stereotypical expression for the destruction of all human life in the fort"
p 176 is god a moral monster paul copan.
the term [ir] cities were used as outpost whole civilian populations lived in countryside. letters between pharaoh and Canaanite leaders show them to be distinct from each other.
p176 is god a moral monster paul copan
This stereotypical ancient Near East language of “all” people describes attacks on what turn out to be military forts or garrisons containing combatants — not a general population that includes women and children. We have no archaeological evidence of civilian populations at Jericho or Ai (6:21; 8:25).8 The word “city [‘ir]” during this time in Canaan was where the (military) king, the army, and the priesthood resided. So for Joshua, mentioning “women” and “young and old” turns out to be stock ancient Near East language that he could have used even if “women” and “young and old” were not living there. The language of “all” (“men and women”) at Jericho and Ai is a “stereotypical expression for the destruction of all human life in the fort, presumably composed entirely of combatants.” The text does not require that “women” and “young and old” must have been in these cities — and this same situation could apply to Saul’s battling against the Amalekites.
Furthermore, people in Canaan commonly used the associated term melek (“king”)during this time for a military leader who was responsible to a higher ruler off-site. (The civilian population typically lived in the hill country.) According to the best calculations based on Canaanite inscriptions and other archaeological evidence (i.e., no artifacts or “prestige” ceramics), Jericho was a small settlement of probably 100 or fewer soldiers. This is why all of Israel could circle it seven times and then do battle against it on the same day!10 Also, we should keep in mind that the large numbers used in warfare accounts in the Old Testament are a little tricky; they simply may not be as high as our translations indicate. The Hebrew word ‘eleph (commonly rendered, “thousand”) can also mean “unit” or “squad” without specifying the exact number.
Richard S. Hess, “The Jericho and Ai of the Book of Joshua,” in Critical Issues in Early Israelite History, eds. Richard S. Hess, Gerald A. Klingbeil, and Paul J. Ray, Jr. (Winona Lake, Indiana: Eisenbrauns, 2008), 39.
Josh 13 1-6 15.63 17.12 judges 1 19-34 shows not all were killed.Many foreigners lived among Israel and participated in covenant ceremony josh 8 33,35. There is no mention of any woman or children being killed, other ancient near eastern documents mention this from the time period if it happened.
http://www.amazon.com/God-Behaving-B.../dp/0830838260
“a careful reading of the text in its literary context makes it implausible to interpret it as claiming Yahweh ordered extermination”
Nicholas waterstorff “reading joshua” in divine evil? The moral character of the god of Abraham NY oxford U press 2010 p 252-53
OT scholar K lawson younger compares joshua-judges with other ANE language, and concluded the language is “highly figurative” .
Holy War in the Bible: Christian Morality and an Old Testament Problem Heath A. Thomas#(Editor),#Jeremy Evans#(Editor),#Paul Copan#(Editor) p 215
Same language as the mesha stele “are clearly part of the totalitarianism rhetoric of the holy war,rather than historical correctness”
p224 Holy War in the Bible: Christian Morality and an Old Testament Problem
saying all were killed,woman children etc causes
“the fallacy of misplaced literalism.. the misconstruction of a statement in evidence so that it carries a literal meaning when a symbolic or hyperbolic or figurative meaning is intended”.
Hoffeirer, Israel in Egypt p 42 James K hoffmeirer.
“monumental hyperbole”
John Goldingay city and nation in old testament theology vol 3 isreal life downers grove 2 inter varsity press 2000 p570.
Later in bible the same language is used of Judah's destruction in Babylon exile in Jeremiah,clearly not literal but literary exaggeration.
Bible teaches not all were killed,not woman,men,child,animals etc.
p 201-239 for arguments not all were wiped out.
http://www.amazon.com/Holy-War-Bible...r+in+the+bible
all the Canaanites were not wiped out judges 2.3 1.21 27-28,numbers 31 woman children not killed found later in geologies.
battles reported in bible do not mention any non combatants killed.
Josh 13 1-6 15.63 17.12 judges 1 19-34 shows not all were killed.Many foreigners lived among Israel and participated in covenant ceremony josh 8 33,35. There is no mention of any woman or children being killed, other ancient near eastern documents mention this from the time period if it happened.
http://www.amazon.com/God-Behaving-B.../dp/0830838260
god commands in 10.40 11.20 to totally destroy yet in judges 2.1 same command given, told as to destroy shrines.
biblical account cannot and does not intend to be taken literal,to many examples in judges/joshua that explain different p 201-239.
Joshua reads he killed all and left no survivors, yet in hebron, debir, hill country- yet later they are still there.11.23 states he took whole land yet 13.1 still large areas to be taken.Cannanites still around after battles “until this day” 15.63 16.10 17 12-13 judges 1.19,21 27-35
how many were killed?estimates.
In Joshua 12, the victory list is given as 31 kings (generally petty kings of city-states) this would be around 70,000 people (assuming they all stayed around--a very dubious assumption in light of the international fear of Israel at the time).
But this 70,000 is against a base of close to 2 million people! (Israel was approximately 1.6 million at the time, and these nations are said to be 'more numerous' than Israel in a number of places--e.g. Deut 7.1,7.) This amounts to approximately 3.5% of the 'target population'. The Israelites were specifically told to execute those who remained in the cities (Deut 20.16) and those who hid in the Land--and therefore did NOT migrate out--Deut 7.20
Other estimates put the total Canaanite population at 45,000 before they fled, based on archeology.
Bible and spade 25.3 2012 p59
Furthermore, people in Canaan commonly used the associated term melek (“king”)during this time for a military leader who was responsible to a higher ruler off-site. (The civilian population typically lived in the hill country.) According to the best calculations based on Canaanite inscriptions and other archaeological evidence (i.e., no artifacts or “prestige” ceramics), Jericho was a small settlement of probably 100 or fewer soldiers. This is why all of Israel could circle it seven times and then do battle against it on the same day!10 Also, we should keep in mind that the large numbers used in warfare accounts in the Old Testament are a little tricky; they simply may not be as high as our translations indicate. The Hebrew word ‘eleph (commonly rendered, “thousand”) can also mean “unit” or “squad” without specifying the exact number.
Richard S. Hess, “The Jericho and Ai of the Book of Joshua,” in Critical Issues in Early Israelite History, eds. Richard S. Hess, Gerald A. Klingbeil, and Paul J. Ray, Jr. (Winona Lake, Indiana: Eisenbrauns, 2008), 39.
What if infants were killed?
only god is perfect judge
god judges by what is deserved based on crimes jer 50.29 ps 137. 8,15 Isiah 40.2. God is judge of man, does not order killing out of malice or lawlessness Deuteronomy 32.4.
God sees the heart of man, Hitler was once a baby and would look innocent, though god would know his heart and know he would grow up to become a monster.
7 For the LORD does not see as man sees for man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart."
1 Samuel 16.7
The bible says all are born into sin we are all sinful and all babies are sinners and will grow up like the rest of us and be sinners .
20 Then Noah built an altar to the Lord and, taking some of all the clean animals and clean birds, he sacrificed burnt offerings on it. 21 The Lord smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: “Never again will I curse the ground because of humans, even though every inclination of the human heart is evil from childhood. And never again will I destroy all living creatures, as I have done.
Genesis 8 20-21
I like a point a friend of mine made about this. One Skeptic asked why God simply did not kill Hitler as a baby. Yet if "baby Hitler" had died, the Skeptic would ask why God did not prevent the death of this innocent baby. This shows that a far more critical view is needed than "argument by outrage." Indeed, "argument by outrage" often assumes a form of omniscience by the critic.
God tells Abraham that his seed will not enter the land until the Amorites have reached the full measure of their sins, which would take roughly four hundred years. This means that every new generation of Canaanites grew up to be just as wicked and evil as the generation before them, without anyone repenting of their sins, proving that even children are born sinful and grow up to be rebels.
http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/q_amalekites.htm
It was His way of preserving Israel’s spiritual health and posterity.# God knew that if these Canaanite children were allowed to live, they would spell the undoing of Israel.# The killing of the Canaanite children not only served to prevent assimilation to Canaanite identity but also served as a shattering, tangible illustration of Israel’s being set exclusively apart for God.
So whom does God wrong in commanding the destruction of the Canaanites?# Not the Canaanite adults, for they were corrupt and deserving of judgement.# Not the children, for they inherit eternal life.# So who is wronged?#
Read more:#
http://www.reasonablefaith.org/slaug...#ixzz2DzKxcuj8
also all babies that may have been killed would have went straight to haven. Or it could be that god was saving them from a evil situation.
The righteous perishes, And no man takes it to heart; Merciful men are taken away, While no one considers That the righteous is taken away from evil.
Isiah. 57:1
but why should we take seriously the skeptic’s advocacy for Canaanite children? Doesn’t the new atheist’s complaint ring hollow, since they are often at the forefront of defending a woman’s right to suction, dismember, or scald to death her unborn baby at any time and for any reason?
http://www.equip.org/articles/killing-the-canaanites/
Concerning child sacrifice
But why should we take seriously the skeptic’s advocacy for Canaanite children? Doesn’t the new atheist’s complaint ring hollow, since they are often at the forefront of defending a woman’s right to suction, dismember, or scald to death her unborn baby at any time and for any reason?
Atheist often support abortion, witch is nothing more than a modern age version of child sacrifice.
so why do atheist defend the Canaanites?
Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil;
Who put darkness for light, and light for darkness;
Who put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
Isiah 5.20
I think clay jones makes a great point saying atheist dont see the Canaanites as sinful as they approve of much of what they do.
In his article Killing the Canaanites: A Response to the New Atheism’s “Divine Genocide” Claims he says
concerning the sexual sin/prostitution of the Canaanites.
Concerning sexual desire, Dawkins questions why evangelical Christians are so “obsessed” with “private sexual inclinations.The apparently not obsessed Christopher Hitchens considers “dangerous sexual repression” so serious that he calls it one of the “four irreducible objections to religious faith.”#Dawkins and Hitchens are not just encouraging a sort of sexual libertarianism per se. They are insisting that God and Christianity are in fact poisonous and must diligently be resisted and defeated. In a recent debate with William Lane Craig, Hitchens exhorted the Christians in the audience, “Emancipate yourself from the idea of a celestial dictatorship and you’ve taken the first step toward becoming free.”.
Concerning child sacrifice
But why should we take seriously the skeptic’s advocacy for Canaanite children? Doesn’t the new atheist’s complaint ring hollow, since they are often at the forefront of defending a woman’s right to suction, dismember, or scald to death her unborn baby at any time and for any reason?
Atheist often support abortion, witch is nothing more than a modern age version of child sacrifice.
Even after birth abortion
#“Parents should be allowed to have their newborn babies killed because they are ‘morally irrelevant’ and ending their lives is no different to abortion.”
http://www.charismanews.com/opinion/...-killer-status
published in a journal on medical ethics
The problem with new atheist divine genocide claims is rather simple: God hates sin, but the new atheists do not.Consequently, they complain of divine genocide in the face of Canaanite sin! So let’s not kid ourselves: at the end of the day no amount of explanation will cause today’s illuminati (or “brights,” as some new atheists like to be called) to consider God’s commands justified
next in line,pornography,age differences.
Legislative victory should not mean identity erase
. There remain numerous sexual freedoms to campaign on – yes sexual – that’s what gay rights is about, not merely a civil rights campaign – and there are battles still to be won. Battles relating to pornography, the continued criminalisation of consensual sexual acts, re-constructing our ideas of relationships in relation to sex, monogamy and the illusion that only ‘couples’ might want to enter into a state-sanctioned partnership, are just a handful which spring to mind.
http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2013/01/25...ds-gay-rights/
responding to common objections to bible part 4
Reply With Quote
Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name
Bookmarks