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Thread: responding to common objections to bible part 4

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    Default responding to common objections to bible part 4

    Continuing a series responding to the top 15 objections.

    My first was how could a loving god send people to hell
    https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...people-to-Hell


    second was what about those who have never heard of bible/jesus
    https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...sus&highlight=


    third thread was
    3 -does the bible allow slavery?
    4-why is there death and suffering if god is all loving?/the reason for the gospel
    5-does the bible command rape? was rape allowed?
    6- why does god not show himself today?
    7- has the bible been translated accurately?

    https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...tions-to-bible



    this thread topics are

    8-Did Jesus claim to be divine?does the bible teach he was god?did man or the councils create Jesus's divinity after he died?

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    First generally the only people to claim this is Muslims[ who say he was just another human prophet] its hard to imagine anyone who reads the bible can come to a unbiased conclusion Jesus was not god.

    Jesus was the worst possible teacher ever [according to Muslims] because all his followers [the apostles] and earliest Christian worshiped him as god from the beginning, in scholarly debates the idea that Jesus never claimed to be god or the nt does not teach so never ends well for the Muslim.

    Here are a few examples
    James White vs. Jalal Abualrub: "Does the New Testament Teach that Jesus Is God?"
    http://www.answeringmuslims.com/2008...-does-new.html

    James White and Farhan Qureshi, "Did Jesus Claim to be God"
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XARqDHYPERLINK "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XARqD0LmqWM&feature=relmfu"0HYPERLINK

    William Lane Craig vs Jamal Badawi The Concept Of God In Islam and Christianity
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h51YwIMxtrQ

    The Deity of Jesus in the New Testament
    http://www.kingmessiahproject.com/jw..._new_test.html

    Sam Shamoun: Is Jesus a Creature of God?
    http://www.answeringmuslims.com/2013...re-of-god.html



    Ill give a few passages showing Jesus was god [according to the bible]


    from the OT
    angel of the lord
    passages were the angel of the lord is referred to as Jehovah or other names of god only and were Jehovah came down to earth and appear to man. The angel of the lord appears as a man,eats food, is called angel, refers to himself as the one who will be called wonderful [Isiah 9.6 birth of messiah] receives worship and sacrifice, claims to be the one who made the covenant with Israel, claims to have led Israel out of Egypt,claims to have given law, is referred to as one and the same with god over and over, people after seeing the angel say they have seen god many times.

    exodus 11.4,8 12.12 13.21 14.19-24 numbers 12 5-8 14.14 connect these passages and there meanings
    gen 16 7-14 angel tells Hagar he will increse her decendants, she calls the place “You are the God who sees me,” she said, “I have now seen the One who sees me.”
    genesis chapter 18 the 3 visitors were Abraham spoke and ate with Jehovah. gen 18.1 god Yahweh/Jehovah appears as man to abraham the man is described as god in v13 than gen 19.24 the man with abraham called the lord to rain down fire on sodom. So jahovah on earth raines down fire from jahovah in hevan.
    gen 31 10-13 angel says I am the God of Bethel, where you anointed a pillar and where you made a vow to me
    gen 32# Jacob saw gods face and wrestled with god in human form, Jacob names the place the face of god and says,I have seen god face to face and my life is preserved,also hosea 12 3-4
    gen 48 15-16 jacob prayes to angel and god singular.
    judges 2 1-5
    judges 6 11-24 judges 2.1-2 judges 13
    exodus 17 5-6 24 9-11 lev 9 4-6
    exodus 6.3 yahweh God appered to abraham issac and jacob as god almighty
    angel of the lord brings the people out of egypt and is the one to make the covenant with isreal. yet tahweh god almighty does exodus 6 judges 2 1-5.
    Zechariah 3 3-4 angel of the lord taskes away sins.
    angel of lord is Omnipresence psalm 34 6-7
    people have seen god exodus 24 8-11 and numbers 12 6-8 Isaiah 6:1-8 lord almighty has been seen 1 Kings 22:19-23ex 33.11 Moses said that he spoke face to face with Jehovah, also look at numbers 12.8 dt 5.4. dt 23.14 god walks throughout the Israelite camp.


    one has to conclude that after reading these passages [there are more] that the angel of the lord if the one true god and yet appears to man as a man and angel eats drinks calls himself wonderful from Isiah 9.6 and calls himself the rock, Jesus is referred to as the one rock, the I am, also to have been when Abraham was etc . Could the angel just be messanger of god and called god?. No apostels were mesangers of god and would not be called god.




    Coming messiah
    Isiah 9.6
    For to us a child is born,
    to us a son is given,
    and the government will be on his shoulders.
    And he will be called
    Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
    Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.


    Micah 5.2
    #2 “ But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
    Though you are little among the thousands of Judah,
    Yet out of you shall come forth to Me
    The One to be Ruler in Israel,
    Whose goings forth are from of old,
    From everlasting.”

    messiah would be from eternity

    Behold, I am going to send My messenger, and he will clear the way before Me. And#the Lord, whom you seek, will suddenly come to His temple;#and the messenger of the covenant, in whom you delight, behold, He is coming," says the Lord of hosts. But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner's fire and like fullers' soap.
    Micah 3 1-2 Hebrew word#Adonai

    Old Testament passages equate the coming Messiah with God (Ps. 45:6,7; Isa. 9:6, 7:14; Micah 1:3; Zech. 14;9; Isa. 44:6 compared to Job 19:25, Mal. 3:1 Hosea 13.4.


    The#Lord#came and stood there, calling as at the other times, “Samuel! Samuel!”Then Samuel said, “Speak, for your servant is listening.” v The Lord continued to appear at Shiloh, and there he revealed himself to Samuel through his word.
    1 samuel 3 10,21



    NT claims Jesus was creator
    colossians 1.16 john 1 1-3

    He is called "Our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ" (Titus 2:13).

    Jesus refers to himself as the alpha and omega the beginning and the end rev 22.12-16 so is Jehovah rev 1.8 Isiah 41.4,6 48.12

    he is called Emmanuel [god with us] matt 1.23

    Acts 20:28 says god purchased the church of god with his own blood witch is obviously Jesus

    To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ
    2 peter 1.1

    john 8.58 [many other places] Jesus claims to be the “ I Am” from the OT and to be non human [alive at time of Abraham] for witch the Jews picked up stones for blasphemy.

    For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,
    colossians 2.9

    John 20.28 Thomas calls Jesus his lord and his god. Jesus praises him for his belief.
    Jesus is worshiped many times matt 2.2,11 28.9 [many others]

    mark 14 53-65 Jesus claims to be the divine son of man of Daniel 7 13-14,son of god messiah the ancient of days, and said he will be seated at the right hand of power all at once, and is charged with blasphemy deserving of death as he claimed divinity.

    In Hebrews 1 1-3 Jesus is called divine in many ways, said the universe was created by him, said to be the exact replication of the father and the glory of god claim at deity [look to Ezekiel 43 1-7] and the sustainer of the entire universe.

    Luke 4.2 Jesus is being tempted by the devil, 4 9-11 Jesus reply 4.12

    Jesus says he and the father are one
    30 I and My Father are one.”
    31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. 32 Jesus answered them, “Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?”
    33 The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.” john 10 30-33

    25#to the only God#our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore!Amen. Jude v15

    For this reason the Jews persecuted Jesus, and sought to kill Him,[c] because He had done these things on the Sabbath. 17 But Jesus answered them, “My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.”
    18 Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.
    John 5.17-18

    5 of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen
    Romans 9.5

    he is said to be able to forgive sins that only god can do
    mark 2 5-7

    #1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us
    john 1.1,18

    God[a] was manifested in the flesh,
    Justified in the Spirit,
    Seen by angels,
    Preached among the Gentiles,
    Believed on in the world,
    Received up in glory.
    1 timothy 3.16 says#

    #Psalm 23:1 "Jehovah is my shepherd."# Jesus very clearly applied this passage to Himself in John 10:11, 14 when He said, "I am the good shepherd." And the writer of Hebrews also applied this passage to Christ in Hebrews 13:20, when he wrote, "The God of peace . . . brought up from the dead the great Shepherd of the sheep through the blood of the eternal covenant, even Jesus our Lord"— Jesus our Jehovah. http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil//articles/deity.htm

    Joel 2:32: "And it will come about that whoever calls on the name of [Jehovah] Will be [saved]." Both Acts 2:21 and Romans 10:13 quote that passage, applying the title#Jehovah#to Christ.

    because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.
    1 timothy 4.10 god is our savior, Jesus is savior, Jesus is god.

    John 8 1-8 reading of the day was Jeremiah 17 v13, claim to deity.

    Term son of god, is not title used always but divine sonship.
    John 1.14,18 mark 1.11 matt 1.23,1.18

    islam jesus divinity
    According to the Qur'an, Allah is "the First and the Last" (57:3). According to the Old Testament, Yahweh is "the First and the Last" (Isaiah 44:6). Why, then, would Jesus refer to himself as "the First and the Last" in the New Testament (Revelation 1:17)?#

    he shares and refers to himself as titles only used of god such as creator,savior,judge,light,I am,Shepard,glory of god,first and last,redeemer,bridegroom,rock,forgiver of sins,worshiped by angels, addressed in prayer,creator of angels and confessed as lord.
    many many passages could be given but I will leave references for more on that, Jesus uses many titles to show he is divine.



    councils create Jesus's divinity?

    we have manuscript evidence from before any of the councils so if they had changed any doctrine we would have known about it.
    http://www.answeringmuslims.com/2011...testament.html

    the above link to video also shows the impossibility of any one group or council changing the NT documents.

    all the original manuscripts talk of him as god they were written before 400 ad the apostles preached he was god and early Christians worshiped Jesus as god

    extra biblical references to Jesus and crusifiction, early Christians worshiping Jesus as god
    http://www.amazon.com/Evidence-Deman.../dp/0785243631



    All the NT except 11 verses could be reconstructed from the writings of the Fathers
    Norman L. Geisler and William E. Nix,#A General Introduction to the Bible, Ch. 24. Moody, Chicago, Revised and Expanded 1986.
    #"virtually the entire New Testament could be reproduced from citations contained in the works of the early church fathers. There are some thirty-two thousand citations in the writings of the Fathers prior to the Council of Nicea (325)" (Moreland,#Scaling the Secular City, p. 136).


    if the church council created jesus divintiy, why not take out passages that call him human cause some to say hes not, or add clewar passages time and agagin?.
    councils acknowledged what the nt taught, in fact they had to fight heriticks who denied Jesus humanity. But what is important is what the nt taught and what jesus said

    The Council of Nicea. Contrary to the book, this Council did not decide that Jesus was divinity and not a mortal man. Both sides in this Council agreed that Jesus was divinity. The question at hand was whether Jesus was a created deity or an eternal deity.

    first general council of the Church summoned by Constantine (the Council of Nicea) shows the 300+ delegates all speaking at once and shaking their fists at one another. Presumably Howard is trying to portray disunity by this distortion of history, but history records that the outcome, which became the basis for the Nicene Creed, was carried by a vote of 316 to 2. Note: The Council of Nicea did not create the divinity of Christ. The delegates affirmed what the New Testament proclaims in many places, for example, the Apostle Thomas’s confession of faith, ‘My Lord and my God’ (John 20:28 ), when he saw the Lord Jesus Christ one week after His Resurrection.

    Early church believed he was god and nt
    http://www.answersingenesis.org/arti...-da-vinci-code
    14 extra biblical refrences to early chritians calling jesus god from 107 AD

    http://www.answeringmuslims.com/HYPERLINK "http://www.investigateislam.com/english/index.php?/james-white-vs-jalal-abualrub-does-new.html

    Humanity of Christ
    church had to fight those who rejected his humanity, more than those who deny his divinity.
    The true humanity of Jesus Christ was denied even in the earliest ages of theChurch. TheDocetis tMarcionand thePriscillianistsgrant to#Jesus#only an apparent body; theValentinians, a body brought down from#Heaven. The followers ofApollinarisdeny either that#Jesus#had any#human#soul#at all, or that He possessed the higher part of the#human#soul, they maintain that theWord#supplies either the whole#soul#in#Christ, or at least its higher#faculties. In more recent times it is not so much#Christ's#truehumanity#as His#real#manhood that is denied. According to#Kant#the#Christian#creed#deals with the ideal, not with the#historicalJesus; according to Jacobi, it#worships#Jesus#not as an#historical#person, but as a#religious#ideal; according to Fichte there exists an#absolute#unity#between#God#and#man, and#Jesus#was the first to see and teach it; according to Schelling, the incarnation is an#eternal#fact, which happened to reach in#Jesus#its highest point, according to#Hegel,#Christ#is not the actual#incarnation#ofGod#in#Jesus of Nazareth#but the#symbol#of#God's incarnation#in#humanity#at large. Finally,#certain#recent#Catholic#writers distinguish between the#Christ#of#history#and the#Christ#of#faith, thus destroying in the#Christ#of#faith#His#historical#reality. The New#Syllabus#(Proposit, 29 sq.) and the#Encyclical#"Pascendi dominici gregis" may be consulted on these#errors.

    The Deity of Jesus in the New Testament
    http://www.kingmessiahproject.com/jw..._new_test.html


    Ignatius (AD 105): “God Himself being manifested in human form.”
    Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, editors,#Ante-Nicene Fathers, Volume I, electronic edition (Peabody, MA: Hendrickson, 1994), Ignatius,#Epistle of Ignatius, XIX


    "Ignatius, also called Theophorus, to the Church at Ephesus in Asia . . . predestined from eternity for a glory that is lasting and unchanging, united and chosen through true suffering by the will of the Father in Jesus Christ our God" (Letter to the Ephesians 1 [A.D. 110]).

    "For our God, Jesus Christ, was conceived by Mary in accord with God’s plan: of the seed of David, it is true, but also of the Holy Spirit" (ibid., 18:2).

    "[T]o the Church beloved and enlightened after the love of Jesus Christ, our God, by the will of him that has willed everything which is" (Letter to the Romans 1 [A.D. 110]).

    Aristides
    "[Christians] are they who, above every people of the earth, have found the truth, for they acknowledge God, the Creator and maker of all things, in the only-begotten Son and in the Holy Spirit" (Apology 16 [A.D. 140]).


    Clement (AD 150): “It is fitting that you should think of Jesus Christ as of God.”
    Clement,#The Second Epistle of Clement, I Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, editors, Ante-Nicene Fathers, Volume I, electronic edition (Peabody, MA: Hendrickson, 1994)


    Justin Martyr (AD 160): “The Father of the universe has a Son. And He . . . is even God.
    justin Martyr,#The First Apology, LXIII. Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, editors, Ante-Nicene Fathers, Volume I, electronic edition (Peabody, MA: Hendrickson, 1994)


    Tatian the Syrian
    "We are not playing the fool, you Greeks, nor do we talk nonsense, when we report that God was born in the form of a man" (Address to the Greeks 21 [A.D. 170]).



    Melito of Sardis
    "It is no way necessary in dealing with persons of intelligence to adduce the actions of Christ after his baptism as proof that his soul and his body, his human nature, were like ours, real and not phantasmal. The activities of Christ after his baptism, and especially his miracles, gave indication and assurance to the world of the deity hidden in his flesh. Being God and likewise perfect man, he gave positive indications of his two natures: of his deity, by the miracles during the three years following after his baptism, of his humanity, in the thirty years which came before his baptism, during which, by reason of his condition according to the flesh, he concealed the signs of his deity, although he was the true God existing before the ages" (Fragment in Anastasius of Sinai’s The Guide 13 [A.D. 177]).

    Irenaeus
    "For the Church, although dispersed throughout the whole world even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and from their disciples the faith in one God, Father Almighty, the creator of heaven and earth and sea and all that is in them; and in one Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who became flesh for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who announced through the prophets the dispensations and the comings, and the birth from a Virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the bodily ascension into heaven of the beloved Christ Jesus our Lord, and his coming from heaven in the glory of the Father to reestablish all things; and the raising up again of all flesh of all humanity, in order that to Jesus Christ our Lord and God and Savior and King, in accord with the approval of the invisible Father, every knee shall bend of those in heaven and on earth and under the earth . . . " (Against Heresies 1:10:1 [A.D. 189]).

    "Nevertheless, what cannot be said of anyone else who ever lived, that he is himself in his own right God and Lord . . . may be seen by all who have attained to even a small portion of the truth" (ibid., 3:19:1).


    Irenaeus (AD 180): “He is God, for the name Emmanuel indicates this.”
    Irenaeus,#Against Heresies, III.21 Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, editors, Ante-Nicene Fathers, Volume I, electronic edition (Peabody, MA: Hendrickson, 1994)


    Clement of Alexandria
    "The Word, then, the Christ, is the cause both of our ancient beginning—for he was in God—and of our well-being. And now this same Word has appeared as man. He alone is both God and man, and the source of all our good things" (Exhortation to the Greeks 1:7:1 [A.D. 190]).

    "Despised as to appearance but in reality adored, [Jesus is] the expiator, the Savior, the soother, the divine Word, he that is quite evidently true God, he that is put on a level with the Lord of the universe because he was his Son" (ibid., 10:110:1).


    Tertullian (AD 200): “Christ our God.”
    Tertullian,#Part Third, VI.13 Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, editors, Ante-Nicene Fathers, Volume I, electronic edition (Peabody, MA: Hendrickson, 1994)


    "The origins of both his substances display him as man and as God: from the one, born, and from the other, not born" (The Flesh of Christ 5:6–7 [A.D. 210]).

    "That there are two gods and two Lords, however, is a statement which we will never allow to issue from our mouth; not as if the Father and the Son were not God, nor the Spirit God, and each of them God; but formerly two were spoken of as gods and two as Lords, so that when Christ would come, he might both be acknowledged as God and be called Lord, because he is the Son of him who is both God and Lord" (Against Praxeas 13:6 [A.D. 216]).

    Origen
    "Although he was God, he took flesh; and having been made man, he remained what he was: God" (The Fundamental Doctrines 1:0:4 [A.D. 225]).

    Origen (AD 225): “And as no one ought to be offended, seeing God is the Father, that the Savior is also God.”
    Origen,#De Principiis, I.2


    Hippolytus
    "Only [God’s] Word is from himself and is therefore also God, becoming the substance of God" (Refutation of All Heresies 10:33 [A.D. 228]).

    Hippolytus of Rome
    "For Christ is the God over all, who has arranged to wash away sin from mankind, rendering the old man new" (ibid., 10:34).

    Novatian
    "If Christ was only man, why did he lay down for us such a rule of believing as that in which he said, ‘And this is life eternal, that they should know you, the only and true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent?’ [John 17:3]. Had he not wished that he also should be understood to be God, why did he add, ‘And Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent,’ except because he wished to be received as God also? Because if he had not wished to be understood to be God, he would have added, ‘And the man Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent;’ but, in fact, he neither added this, nor did Christ deliver himself to us as man only, but associated himself with God, as he wished to be understood by this conjunction to be God also, as he is. We must therefore believe, according to the rule prescribed, on the Lord, the one true God, and consequently on him whom he has sent, Jesus Christ, who by no means, as we have said, would have linked himself to the Father had he not wished to be understood to be God also. For he would have separated himself from him had he not wished to be understood to be God" (Treatise on the Trinity 16 [A.D. 235]).

    Cyprian of Carthage
    "One who denies that Christ is God cannot become his temple [of the Holy Spirit] . . . " (Letters 73:12 [A.D. 253]).


    Cyprian (AD 250): “Let us assuredly, as far as we can, please Christ our Lord and God.”
    Cyprian,#The Epistles of Cyprian, LXI Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, editors, Ante-Nicene Fathers, Volume I, electronic edition (Peabody, MA: Hendrickson, 1994)


    Gregory the Wonderworker
    "There is one God, the Father of the living Word, who is his subsistent wisdom and power and eternal image: perfect begetter of the perfect begotten, Father of the only-begotten Son. There is one Lord, only of the only, God of God, image and likeness of deity, efficient Word, wisdom comprehensive of the constitution of all things, and power formative of the whole creation, true Son of true Father, invisible of invisible, and incorruptible of incorruptible, and immortal of immortal and eternal of eternal. . . . And thus neither was the Son ever wanting to the Father, nor the Spirit to the Son; but without variation and without change, the same Trinity abides ever" (Declaration of Faith [A.D. 265]).


    Methodius (AD 290): “He truly was and is, being in the beginning with God, and being God.”
    Methodius,#The Banquet of the Ten Virgins; Or, Concerning Chastity, III. 6 Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, editors, Ante-Nicene Fathers, Volume I, electronic edition (Peabody, MA: Hendrickson, 1994)


    Arnobius
    "‘Well, then,’ some raging, angry, and excited man will say, ‘is that Christ your God?’ ‘God indeed,’ we shall answer, ‘and God of the hidden powers’" (Against the Pagans 1:42 [A.D. 305]).

    Lactantius
    "He was made both Son of God in the spirit and Son of man in the flesh, that is, both God and man" (Divine Institutes 4:13:5 [A.D. 307]).

    Arnobius (AD 305): “Christ performed all those miracles . . . by the inherent might of His authority; and as was the proper duty of the true God.”
    Arnobius,#The Seven Books of Arnobius, I.44 Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, editors, Ante-Nicene Fathers, Volume I, electronic edition (Peabody, MA: Hendrickson, 1994)


    "We, on the other hand, are [truly] religious, who make our supplications to the one true God. Someone may perhaps ask how, when we say that we worship one God only, we nevertheless assert that there are two, God the Father and God the Son—which assertion has driven many into the greatest error . . . [thinking] that we confess that there is another God, and that he is mortal. . . . [But w]hen we speak of God the Father and God the Son, we do not speak of them as different, nor do we separate each, because the Father cannot exist without the Son, nor can the Son be separated from the Father" (ibid., 4:28–29).
    #Council of Nicaea I

    "We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, God from God, light from light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, one in being with the Father. Through him all things were made" (Creed of Nicaea [A.D. 325]).

    "But those who say, ‘There was a time when he [the Son] did not exist,’ and ‘Before he was born, he did not exist,’ and ‘Because he was made from non-existing matter, he is either of another substance or essence,’ and those who call ‘God the Son of God changeable and mutable,’ these the Catholic Church anathematizes" (Appendix to the Creed of Nicaea [A.D. 325]).

    Patrick of Ireland
    #"Jesus Christ is the Lord and God in whom we believe, and whose coming we expect will soon take place, the judge of the living and the dead, who will render to everyone according to his works" (Confession of St. Patrick 4 [A.D. 452]




    9- conquest of Canaan, did god order genocide? did god order the killings of entire towns? did god order the killings of woman and children?did god order the death of innocent life?. What was the reason for judgment on the Canaanites?.




    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    the Canaanites were aware of god and his power josh2 9-11 9 9-10 they all new the miracles of god with isreal coming out of egypt and it is said were even afraid of isreal.

    Israelite's were not forced to go to war
    In Deuteronomy 20 1-9 it list numbers of reasons that a Israelite would not have to go to war.


    Paul Copan Debates With Norman Bacrac On The Topic "Is God A Moral Monster?"
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idCch7fjO1k
    http://www.paulcopan.com/new/


    Assumptions/things to consider before answering.

    Atheist must put themselves in place as god, as perfect judge of people living thousands of years ago, to decided what is morally correct or not.
    1] we must assume we are god, that only we can tell and know what is morally acceptable or not.
    2] we must assume their are such things as morals, “right” and “wrong” those ideas only make sense if a moral god created us.
    3]we must assume our evolved brains of completely random chemical reactions and matter can somehow have the right idea of what is right and wrong, our evolved animal brains formed by random chemical reactions and matter [dirt] that combined for a survival advantage[according to atheist]. They only “feel” killing is wrong because the random chemical reactions give them a chemical feeling that killing is wrong.
    https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...ity&highlight=

    is god not able to take life he has given?


    Sins of the Canaanites


    child sacrifice
    http://www.ox.ac.uk/media/news_stori.../140123_1.html

    You must not worship the LORD your God in their way, because in worshiping their gods, they do all kinds of detestable things the LORD hates. They even burn their sons and daughters in the fire as sacrifices to their gods.
    Deuteronomy 12.31

    36 They worshiped their idols,
    which became a snare to them.
    37 They sacrificed their sons
    and their daughters to false gods.
    38 They shed innocent blood,
    the blood of their sons and daughters,
    whom they sacrificed to the idols of Canaan,
    and the land was desecrated by their blood.
    39 They defiled themselves by what they did;
    by their deeds they prostituted themselves.
    Psalm 106 36-38

    Child sacrifice.#Molech was a Canaanite underworld deity14#represented as an upright, bullheaded idol with a human body in whose belly a fire was stoked and in whose outstretched arms a child was placed that would be burned to death. The victims were not only infants; children as old as four were sacrificed.15#Kleitarchos reported that “as the flame burning the child surrounded the body, the limbs would shrivel up and the mouth would appear to grin as if laughing, until it was shrunk enough to slip into the cauldron.”16
    14 John Day,#Molech: A God of Human Sacrifice in the Old Testament#(Cambridge: Cambridge University, 1989), 62.
    15 Shelby Brown,#Late Carthaginian Child Sacrifice and Sacrificial Monuments in Their Mediterranean Context#(Sheffield, England: Sheffield Academic, 1991), 14.
    16 Kleitarchos, Scholia on Plato’s#Republic#337A as quoted in Day, 87.
    http://www.equip.org/articles/killing-the-canaanites/

    “Funerary jars have been found with the bodies of young children distorted by suffocation as they struggled for life after having been buried alive as a sacrifice to Canaanite gods. Such young children have been found in the foundation pillars of Canaanite houses, and sometimes religious ceremonies were associated with their sacrifice....“The Canaanite religion was a horribly brutal system as well. For instance, the goddess Anath is pictured as killing humans by the thousands and wading knee-deep in blood. She cut off heads and hands and wore them as ornaments. And in all of this gruesomeness, the Baal-epic says that her liver was swollen with laughter and her joy was great.”
    (Wilson, 1973, p. 85). Wayne Jackson, M.A.#Old Testament events and the goodness of Godhttp://www.christiancourier.com/articles/467-old-testament-events-and-the-goodness-of-

    The most significant part of the American excavations [at Carthage] occurred in the#Tophet.The word#Tophet#comes from the Old Testament (e.g., 2 Kgs 23:10; Jer 7:30–32), referring to a place of child sacrifice and burial. Modern excavators applied the term#Tophet#to a cemetery we excavated bearing remains of children who had been ritually sacrificed as burnt offerings. It is the largest sacrificial cemetery ever found, measuring at least 60,000 square feet. Most stunning is the number of children sacrificed here—estimated at a minimum of 20,000 burials between 400–200 BC during only one-third the life of the cemetery!#

    The excavators named the [archaeological] periods after Tanit, the Canaanite goddess of love and war. Child sacrifices at Carthage were dedicated to her and to the god Baal Hamon, a name that means “Lord of the Brazier.” They were brother and sister, as well as husband and wife!Carthaginians were descendants of Canaanites.
    John Currid.#Abortion: Child Sacrifice Today?#Bible and Spade#(Winter 2012, 13)


    For quote of Canaanite second nature discussing child sacrifice
    p71 the origin of the american indian populations joc 26 [11] 2012

    Canaanites initiated attacks on Israel first.
    The Canaanites initiated the attacks on Israel when Israel was defenseless killing children and woman elderly, Deuteronomy 25 17-18 ex 17 8-13 num 21.1 21-26 33-35 dut 2 26-37 3 1-22


    Bestiality.

    #Probably the ultimate sexual depravity is intercourse with animals. Hittite Laws: 199 states, “If anyone has intercourse with a pig or a dog, he shall die. If a man has intercourse with a horse or a mule, there is no punishment.”18#As with incest, the penalty for having sex with animals decreased about the fourteenth century BC.
    Harry A. Hoffner, Jr., “Incest, Sodomy and Bestiality in the Ancient Near East,” in#Orient and Occident: Essays Presented to Cyrus H. Gordon on the Occasion of His Sixty-fifth Birthday, ed. Harry A. Hoffner, Jr. (Neukirchen Vluyn, Germany: Neukirchener Verlag, 1973), 82.

    There should be no surprise that bestiality would occur among the Canaanites, since their gods practiced it. From the Canaanite epic poem “The Baal Cycle” we learn: “Mightiest Baal hears / He makes love with a heifer in the outback / A cow in the field of Death’s Realm. / He lies with her seventy times seven / Mounts eighty times eight / [She conceiv]es and bears a boy.”
    Mark S. Smith, trans.#Ugaritic Narrative Poetry, ed. Simon B. Parker (Atlanta: Society of Biblical Literature, 1997), 148.

    There were absolutely no prohibitions against bestiality in the rest of the ANE.21#In fact, in an Egyptian dream book it was a bad omen for a woman to dream about embracing her husband, but good things would happen if she dreamed of intercourse with a baboon, wolf, or he-goat.22#In short, their sexual fantasies involved everything that breathes.

    incest.

    #Like all Ancient Near East (ANE) pantheons, the Canaanite pantheon was incestuous. Baal has sex with his mother Asherah,#his sister Anat, and his daughter Pidray,#and none of this is presented pejoratively.
    For the story of Baal having sex with Asherah, see: “El, Ashertu and the Storm-god,” trans. Albrecht Goetze, ed. James B. Pritchard,#The Ancient Near East: Supplementary Texts and Pictures Relating to the Old Testament#(Princeton, N.J.: Princeton University, 1969), 519.
    7 W. F. Albright,#Yahweh and the Gods of Canaan: A Historical Analysis of Two Contrasting Faiths(Winona Lake, IN: Eisenbrauns, 1968), 145.
    http://www.equip.org/articles/killing-the-canaanites/


    Adultery.
    #Canaanite religion, like that of all of the ANE, was a fertility religion that involved temple sex. Inanna/Ishtar, also known as the Queen of Heaven, “became the woman among the gods, patron of eroticism and sensuality, of conjugal love as well as adultery, of brides and prostitutes, transvestites and pederasts.”10#As University of Helsinki professor Martti Nissinen writes, “Sexual contact with a person whose whole life was devoted to the goddess was tantamount to union with the goddess herself.”
    10 Gwendolyn Leick,#Sex and Eroticism in Mesopotamian Literature#(New York: Routledge, 1994), 57.
    11Martti Nissinen,#Homoeroticism in the Biblical World: A Historical Perspective, trans. Kirsi Stjerna (Minneapolis: Fortress, 1998), 33.


    In there temple, woman prostitutes would be chained up against the wall and men would come and have sex with them.
    The fall of Jericho dvd 2009 .
    http://www.biblearchaeology.org/book...uct.aspx?id=89

    Homosexuality.
    #No ANE text condemns homosexuality. Additionally, some ANE manuscripts talk about “party-boys and festival people who changed their masculinity into femininity to make the people of Ishtar revere her.
    Stephanie Dalley, “Erra and Ishum IV,”#Myths from Mesopotamia#(Oxford: Oxford University, 1989), 305.

    Concerning the Canaanite cities of Sodom and Gomorrah
    #Later Lot’s own daughters get him drunk to have sex with him and so even Dawkins, in a surprising moment of moral clarity, writes, “If this dysfunctional family was the best Sodom had to offer by way of morals, some might begin to feel a certain sympathy with God and his judicial brimstone.”



    what did god order Israel to do?
    No were in ot does offensive military initiative with purpose of conversion or Territory expansion.
    upon entering the land Israel simply asked for safe passage and were than attacked first by Canaanites Deuteronomy 25 17-18 numbers 17-18 21.1 21 21-24 21.33 20 14-17

    Israel was required to make peace offerings to cities in cannan from a distance dt 20 10-16.
    later Israel and Canaanites lived side by side in peace 1 sam 7.14.
    The nations in cannan were given 4 options
    1] leave- some left
    2] war
    3] join isreal
    4]make peace treaty
    any Canaanite city could surrender and would be shown mercy,josh 2, rahab and family were saved Canaanites joined Israel 6.23. some Canaanites were absorbed into Israel rahab and 1 chronicles 21.15,18,28. In Joshua 8 Canaanites are welcomed into the people of god.
    http://www.paulcopan.com/new/
    Abraham the father of Israel, was a pagan worshiping Canaanite before his conversion. Josh 24.2 acts 7.2.
    In matt 15 Jesus ministers to a Canaanite woman. Jesus genealogy shows he descended from a Canaanite rahab.
    Book of jonah is about god sending prophet to go to a Canaanite city to warn of judgment,turn from evil and repent, they do and god accepts.

    Drive out not kill
    Isreal was to drive out Canaanites not annihilate num 21.32 33.52 dt 9.1 11.23 18.14 19.1 ex 23.28 lev 10.24 num 33.52 etc just as adam and eve were “driven out” of the garden of Eden gen 4.14
    If Israel did not drive them out they would join in there religion sacrificing child etc num 33.55.
    Talking with Paul Copan about Genocide in Old Testament
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4lap_BdOJQo
    http://www.paulcopan.com/new/

    Deuteronomy#12.29-30:
    #
    The LORD your God will cut off before you the nations you are about to invade and dispossess. But#when you have driven them out and settled in their land,#and after they have been destroyed before you, be careful not to be ensnared by inquiring about their gods, saying, "How do these nations serve their gods? We will do the same."


    Note that some inhabitants would be driven out, implying that they would continue to live and be allowed to settle elsewhere. Some would be destroyed. The Biblical references show that the primary purpose was to drive the Canaanites out of the land, not annihilate all the people.#

    4 “Do not think in your heart, after the LORD your God has cast them out before you, saying, ‘Because of my righteousness the LORD has brought me in to possess this land’; but it is because of the wickedness of these nations that the LORD is driving them out from before you.
    Deuteronomy 9:4


    they were not to just go fight anyone to take land
    The land belongs to god and Israel,so they were taking there land back. God gave them 400 years to repent of there sins. The land was originally Abraham and his descendants,before conquest of Canaanites genesis 13 14-17. However, Abraham could not have land until the sins of Canaanites was so bad, that they deserved their fate 400 years later genesis 15 13-16 also Deuteronomy 9.5. If isreal committed the same kind of sins as Canaanites [later would] they too would be kicked out of land Leviticus 18 24-28.

    42#But the Lord said to me, “Tell them, ‘Do not go up and fight, because I will not be with you. You will be defeated by your enemies.’”
    Deuteronomy 1.42
    5#Do not provoke them to war, for I will not give you any of their land, not even enough to put your foot on. I have given Esau the hill country of Seir as his own.
    Deuteronomy 2.5 also 2.9 and 2.19

    God didn’t just fight for Israel but for other nations as well, and even forbade Israel from ever thinking of trying to fight these people in order to take their lands away:

    "Then the LORD said to me, ‘You have been going about this mountain country long enough; turn northward. And command the people, You are about to pass through the territory of your brethren the sons of Esau, who live in Se'ir; and they will be afraid of you. So take good heed; do not contend with them;#for I will not give you any of their land, no, not so much as for the sole of the foot to tread on,#because I have given Mount Se'ir to Esau as a possession. You shall purchase food from them for money, that you may eat; and you shall also buy water of them for money, that you may drink. For the LORD your God has blessed you in all the work of your hands; he knows your going through this great wilderness; these forty years the LORD your God has been with you; you have lacked nothing. So we went on, away from our brethren the sons of Esau who live in Se'ir, away from the Arabah road from Elath and E'zion-ge'ber. And we turned and went in the direction of the wilderness of Moab. And the LORD said to me, ‘Do not harass Moab or contend with them in battle,#for I will not give you any of their land for a possession, because I have given Ar to the sons of Lot for a possession.’ (The Emim formerly lived there, a people great and many, and tall as the Anakim; like the Anakim they are also known as Reph'aim, but the Moabites call them Emim. The Horites also lived in Se'ir formerly, but the sons of Esau dispossessed them, and destroyed them from before them, and settled in their stead; as Israel did to the land of their possession, which the LORD gave to them.) ‘Now rise up, and go over the brook Zered.’ So we went over the brook Zered. And the time from our leaving Ka'desh-bar'nea until we crossed the brook Zered was thirty-eight years, until the entire generation, that is, the men of war, had perished from the camp, as the LORD had sworn to them. For indeed the hand of the LORD was against them, to destroy them from the camp, until they had perished. So when all the men of war had perished and were dead from among the people, the LORD said to me, ‘This day you are to pass over the boundary of Moab at Ar; and when you approach the frontier of the sons of Ammon, do not harass them or contend with them,#for I will not give you any of the land of the sons of Ammon as a possession, because I have given it to the sons of Lot for a possession.’ (That also is known as a land of Reph'aim; Reph'aim formerly lived there, but the Ammonites call them Zamzum'mim, a people great and many, and tall as the Anakim;#but the LORD destroyed them before them; and they dispossessed them, and settled in their stead;#as he did for the sons of Esau, who live in Se'ir, when he destroyed the Horites before them, and they dispossessed them, and settled in their stead even to this day. As for the Avvim, who lived in villages as far as Gaza, the Caph'torim, who came from Caphtor, destroyed them and settled in their stead.)" Deuteronomy 2:2-23


    Judgment falls on Canaanites.

    war was limited in time/space/area.
    The war was limited in time and space and area.,lasting primarily one generation. The goal of the conquest was to remove the Canaanites from the land not to kill them.. Some stayed and fought so were killed. The war was against Canaanite religion not its people Deuteronomy 12.23.

    conquest was limited in time and space, Israel was not to continue on in war.
    So Joshua took the entire land,#just as the#Lord#had directed Moses, and he gave it as an inheritance#to Israel according to their tribal divisions.#Then the land had rest#from war.
    Joshua 11.23

    Deuteronomy 20.16 limits “holy war” to the promise land. Only people who did not have right or title to land would be dispossessed,Unlike edom dut 2.4 23.7 and moab/ammon dut 2.9,19 gen 12-12 promises isreal the land gen 13 14-17.

    Only 3 cities were mentioned as being destroyed jericho,ai,hazor joshua 6.24 8.28 11.11,13

    Judgment because of sin and moral behavior.

    none of the OT wars were fought with the purpose of forcibly converting the pagans to the religion of Israel. God commanded these wars for the specific purpose of punishment and judgment

    Canaanites destruction was not genocide or racism but because of moral behavior. God is judge of man, does not order killing out of malice or lawlessness Deuteronomy 32.4. The conquest was not against Canaanite people, but there practices, anyone [Israelite or not] who followed the same [moral behavior] in the land, would revive judgment.


    4 “Do not think in your heart, after the LORD your God has cast them out before you, saying, ‘Because of my righteousness the LORD has brought me in to possess this land’; but it is because of the wickedness of these nations that the LORD is driving them out from before you.
    Deuteronomy 9:4

    god judges for no other reason than the sins of the people amos 1-2, God did not hate the Canaanites but the crimes they committed.
    sam shamoun

    the Bible reveals that God punished the Canaanites for specific grievous evils. Also, this wasn’t the entire destruction of a race as God didn’t order that every Canaanite be killed but only those who lived within specific geographical boundaries (Josh. 1:4). Canaanite tribes (especially the Hittites) greatly exceeded the boundaries that Israel was told to conquer. And since, as we will see, He punished Israel when they committed the same sins, what happened to the Canaanites was not genocide, but capital punishment.
    http://www.equip.org/articles/killing-the-canaanites/

    same judgment would fall on Israel if they followed Canaanite practices

    #The native-born and the aliens living among you must not do any of these detestable things,#for all these things were done by the people who lived in the land before you, and the land became defiled. And if you defile the land, it will vomit you out as it vomited out the nations that were before you. Everyone who does any of these detestable things—such persons must be cut off from their people. Keep my requirements and do not follow any of the detestable customs that were practiced before you came and do not defile yourselves with them. I am the LORD your God."’" Leviticus 18:1-30

    was it right of god to judge?/can a loving god judge the death penalty on someone?it is because god loves that he judges
    Given the sins of the Canaanites,yes.


    Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil;
    Who put darkness for light, and light for darkness;
    Who put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
    Isiah 5.20

    a group that practiced today what Canaanites did, even in liberal west would not be tolerated in society.

    gods actions during the conquest were a result of love for the victims, and his nature as being a perfect sinless judge. For there to be truly a loving god who hates evil and sin, he must also be a judge of sin.

    I used to think that wrath was unworthy of God. Isn't God love? Shouldn't divine love be beyond wrath? ?God is love,and God loves every person and every creature. That's exactly why God is wrathful against some of them. My last resistance to the idea of God's wrath was a casualty of the war in the former Yugoslavia, a region from which I come. According to some estimates, 200,000 people were killed, and over 3,000,000 were displaced. My villages and cities were destroyed, my people shelled day in and day out, some of them brutalize beyond imagination, and I could not imagine God not being angry. Or think of Rwanda in the last decade of the past century, where 800,000 people were hacked to death in one hundred days! How did God react to the carnage? By doting on the perpetrators in a grandfatherly fashion? By refusing to condemn the bloodbath but instead affirming th perpetrators' basic goodness? Wasn't God fiercely angry with them? Though I used to complain about the indecency of the idea of God's wrath, I cam to thin that I would have to rebel against a God who wasn't wrathful at the sight of the world' evil. God isn't wrathful in spite of being love. God is wrathful because God is love (Miroslav Volf as quoted in Is God a Moral Monster? by Paul Copan, 192).

    proclaiming, "The LORD, the LORD, the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness, 7 maintaining love to thousands, and forgiving wickedness, rebellion and sin. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished
    exodus 34 6-7


    A major objection to bible is were is god when bad things happen? How can a loving god allow such things like child sacrifice?. So why is it when god does act in judgment against sin, than all sudden he is immoral and evil?. The problem is not with gods perfect judgment of people hearts, but with the unrepentant sinners heart, that will reject god no matter what.

    “Would you discredit my justice?
    Would you condemn me to justify yourself?
    Job 40.8


    I like a point a friend of mine made about this. One Skeptic asked why God simply did not kill Hitler as a baby. Yet if "baby Hitler" had died, the Skeptic would ask why God did not prevent the death of this innocent baby. This shows that a far more critical view is needed than "argument by outrage." Indeed, "argument by outrage" often assumes a form of omniscience by the critic.

    Or I think this applies as well, either god is in trouble for judging and called evil, or he is unjust for allowing bad to happen.

    “As I read and re-read all the non-Christian or anti-Christian accounts of the faith … a slow and awful impression grew gradually but graphically upon my mind—the impression that Christianity must be a most extraordinary thing. For not only (as I understood) had Christianity the most flaming vices, but it had apparently a mystical talent for combining vices which seemed inconsistent with each other. It was attacked on all sides and for all contradictory reasons. No sooner had one rationalist demonstrated that it was too far to the east than another demonstrated with equal clearness that it was much too far to the west.”On the one hand, they ‘proved’ Christianity was “a thing of inhuman gloom”, but then they proved that Christianity “was a great deal too optimistic.” Christianity supposedly caused overpopulation by “Go forth and multiply” (Genesis 1:28), but then it was supposedly anti-sex. Another of Chesterton’s examples was:“Or, again, certain phrases in the Epistles or the marriage service, were said by the anti-Christians to show contempt for woman’s intellect. But I found that the anti-Christians themselves had a contempt for woman’s intellect; for it was their great sneer at the Church on the Continent that ‘only women’ went to it.”
    #G.K. Chesterton



    The Canaanites had 400 years to repent of there sins [gen 15 13-16 ]such as child sacrifice, the ones that remained if left alive would have carried on there culture [exampled African Americans in America not comparing the two in any way just continue of culture] so while the death of anyone is bad and death itself is bad given circumstances it was better than alternative [example Hitler] .Israel stayed in slavery for over 200 years until the Canaanites sin was so great, that they deserved there fate.

    If we were in the same situation just as the victims for over 400 years, we would say I dont believe in god or a loving god,otherwise he would not allow these horrible things to happen.


    The opposite of love is not anger,but hate. God is angry at things that destroy his creation and his love for us.
    If God Weren't Angry...
    http://www.christianpost.com/news/if...t-angry-80980/

    gods actions were out of love, even the ordered killings of the cannnaites.

    When I was a child, my father beat me, left my mom, and once killed a defenseless animal with his bare hands. With that information you could be quite justified in saying that my father was an abusive pig of a man.
    http://www.answersingenesis.org/arti...create-mankind

    God fights in compassion to defend the oppressed, and in anger against the oppressor
    p133-151Holy War in the Bible:#Christian Morality and an Old Testament Problem Heath A. Thomas#(Editor),#Jeremy Evans#(Editor),#Paul Copan#(Editor)

    only god is perfect judge
    god judges by what is deserved based on crimes jer 50.29 ps 137. 8,15 Isiah 40.2,God is judge of man, does not order killing out of malice or lawlessness Deuteronomy 32.4.


    other reasons for judgment
    The bible says if Canaanites were left to intermingle with Isreal, they would have converted them to there practices and destroyed gods plan and messianic line. So either all die and go to hell, or they are destroyed. Its like if Hitler had been left alone to kill all jews,accept being more important and killing off the messianic line before jesus was born. Some say now that messiah/Israel has been established Jesus on cross etc there is know only non violence and no need for war. This is somewhat true, god acts on any interference with messiah.

    If Israel did not drive them out they would join in there religion sacrificing children etc num 33.55.


    what of the victims? For over 400 years the Canaanites continued in there sins.

    If we were in the same situation just as the victims for over 400 years, we would say I dont believe in god or a loving god,otherwise he would not allow these horrible things to happen.

    As when bad things happen and god does not step in many say.

    “All who do evil are good in the eyes of the Lord, and he is pleased with them” or “Where is the God of justice?”
    malachi 2.17

    They called out in a loud voice, “How long,#Sovereign Lord,#holy and true,#until you judge the inhabitants of the earth#and avenge our blood?”#
    revelations 6.10.

    "in holy wars Israel did not arise to protect faith in Yahweh, but Yahweh came on the scene to defend Israel"
    Holy War in the Bible:#Christian Morality and an Old Testament Problem Heath A. Thomas#(Editor),#Jeremy Evans#(Editor),#Paul Copan#(Editor)

    God fights in compassion to defend the oppressed, and in anger against the oppressor
    p133-151Holy War in the Bible:#Christian Morality and an Old Testament Problem Heath A. Thomas#(Editor),#Jeremy Evans#(Editor),#Paul Copan#(Editor)



    Death is not gods way and not normal or wanted by god, god wanted forgiveness and repentance.
    bible teaches peace first,not war.

    7#If at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom, that I will pluck up and break down and destroy it, 8#and if that nation, concerning which I have spoken, turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I intended to do to it. 9#And if at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom that I will build and plant it, 10#and if it does evil in my sight, not listening to my voice, then I will relent of the good that I had intended to do to it.
    Jeremiah 18 7-10

    "'Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked?,' says the Lord God, 'And not rather that he should turn from his way and live? For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone,' says the Lord God. 'So turn and live! Say to them, "As I live," says the Lord God, "I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways. For why will you die?"'" (Ez. 18.23,32; 33.11).


    "The Lord is not willing that any should perish but that all should reach repentance" (2Pet. 3.9).
    "He desires all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth" (1Tim. 2.4).

    God personally suffers with human sin/judgment jer 9.9 12.7-9 15 5-9 48 29-53 Ezekiel 27 3-11 26-36.Isiah 15.5 16 9-11 jer 9.10 17-18 31.20 48 30-36

    god suffers for humanity Isiah 15 42 23-24 48.9 57.11 jer 15.6 Ezekiel 20 21-11 24.12 mal 2.17.

    God punishing in war does not make it good,but he will for good outcome.

    sometimes the death of someone is good in certain circumstances,sep 11 the president gave orders to shoot down planes-to save lives that the terrorist could have used to kill more innocent lives. Sometimes judges give the death penalty to certain murders,but we dont call them murders we call them good just judges.

    in 1 ch 28.3 king David is not the one allowed to build the temple because he has to much blood on his hands[ he killed to many people] even though they were god ordered killings, death is still a bad thing and not normal or natural part of life.



    men woman children?All killed?

    Reason conquest hyperbole and other parts literal p 238-239-Holy War in the Bible: Christian Morality and an Old Testament Problem

    biblical theology teaches, god is loving and would not unjustly command killing innocent people.
    When god destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah in genesis he said he would not destroy it until all good people were out.

    We know god does not kill innocent blood

    `Thus says the#LORD, "Do justice and righteousness, and deliver the one who has been robbed from the power of his oppressor. Also do not mistreat or do violence to the stranger, the orphan, or the widow; and do not shed innocent blood in this place.
    Jeremiah 22.3

    These six#things#the#Lord#hates,
    Yes, seven#are#an abomination to Him:
    17#A proud look,
    A lying tongue,
    Hands that shed innocent blood,
    proverbs 6 16-17

    hyperbole language/attacks on military forts,not civilian populations,describe total destruction/victory in battle.
    Multiple examples of similar not literal battle counts p 216-217

    watch how fast atheist run from the claim god ordered destruction of entire villages, people, kill all inside etc
    debate is god a moral monster? Paul Copan & Norman Bacrac
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idCch7fjO1k

    Sports players says they slaughtered the other team, that is hyperbole.

    “all destroyed” and “all killed “ “men,woman child,young old” is typical language of day and not literal.

    conquest of Canaan uses hyperbolic language such as “all”common in bible example, jesus says of the generation he was on earth in human form that it was a evil and adulterers generation and all were bad, yet other times he calls individuals righteous .

    The sweeping words like “all,” “young and old,” and “man and woman,” however, are stock expressions for totality — even if women and children were not present. The expression “men and women” or similar phrases appear to be stereotypical for describing all the inhabitants of a town or region, “without predisposing the reader to assume anything further about their ages or even their genders.”
    Christopher C.J. Wright, Old Testament Ethics for the People of God (Downers Grove, Illinois: InterVarsity, 2004), 474–75; Iain Provan, V. Philips Long, Tremper Longman III, A Biblical History of Israel (Louisville: Westminster John Knox Press, 2003), 149.


    stereotypical language of ancient near east, attacks likely on military forts and garrisons, no archeological evidence for people civilians in territories such as jericho or Ai these were military forts
    p 175 is god a moral monster paul copan

    "without predisposing the reader to assume anything further about age or gender use of woman young old is stereotypical expression for the destruction of all human life in the fort"
    p 176 is god a moral monster paul copan.

    the term [ir] cities were used as outpost whole civilian populations lived in countryside. letters between pharaoh and Canaanite leaders show them to be distinct from each other.
    p176 is god a moral monster paul copan

    This stereotypical ancient Near East language of “all” people describes attacks on what turn out to be military forts or garrisons containing combatants — not a general population that includes women and children. We have no archaeological evidence of civilian populations at Jericho or Ai (6:21; 8:25).8 The word “city [‘ir]” during this time in Canaan was where the (military) king, the army, and the priesthood resided. So for Joshua, mentioning “women” and “young and old” turns out to be stock ancient Near East language that he could have used even if “women” and “young and old” were not living there. The language of “all” (“men and women”) at Jericho and Ai is a “stereotypical expression for the destruction of all human life in the fort, presumably composed entirely of combatants.” The text does not require that “women” and “young and old” must have been in these cities — and this same situation could apply to Saul’s battling against the Amalekites.
    Furthermore, people in Canaan commonly used the associated term melek (“king”)during this time for a military leader who was responsible to a higher ruler off-site. (The civilian population typically lived in the hill country.) According to the best calculations based on Canaanite inscriptions and other archaeological evidence (i.e., no artifacts or “prestige” ceramics), Jericho was a small settlement of probably 100 or fewer soldiers. This is why all of Israel could circle it seven times and then do battle against it on the same day!10 Also, we should keep in mind that the large numbers used in warfare accounts in the Old Testament are a little tricky; they simply may not be as high as our translations indicate. The Hebrew word ‘eleph (commonly rendered, “thousand”) can also mean “unit” or “squad” without specifying the exact number.
    Richard S. Hess, “The Jericho and Ai of the Book of Joshua,” in Critical Issues in Early Israelite History, eds. Richard S. Hess, Gerald A. Klingbeil, and Paul J. Ray, Jr. (Winona Lake, Indiana: Eisenbrauns, 2008), 39.

    Josh 13 1-6 15.63 17.12 judges 1 19-34 shows not all were killed.Many foreigners lived among Israel and participated in covenant ceremony josh 8 33,35. There is no mention of any woman or children being killed, other ancient near eastern documents mention this from the time period if it happened.
    http://www.amazon.com/God-Behaving-B.../dp/0830838260

    “a careful reading of the text in its literary context makes it implausible to interpret it as claiming Yahweh ordered extermination”
    Nicholas waterstorff “reading joshua” in divine evil? The moral character of the god of Abraham NY oxford U press 2010 p 252-53

    OT scholar K lawson younger compares joshua-judges with other ANE language, and concluded the language is “highly figurative” .
    Holy War in the Bible: Christian Morality and an Old Testament Problem Heath A. Thomas#(Editor),#Jeremy Evans#(Editor),#Paul Copan#(Editor) p 215

    Same language as the mesha stele “are clearly part of the totalitarianism rhetoric of the holy war,rather than historical correctness”
    p224 Holy War in the Bible: Christian Morality and an Old Testament Problem


    saying all were killed,woman children etc causes
    “the fallacy of misplaced literalism.. the misconstruction of a statement in evidence so that it carries a literal meaning when a symbolic or hyperbolic or figurative meaning is intended”.
    Hoffeirer, Israel in Egypt p 42 James K hoffmeirer.

    “monumental hyperbole”
    John Goldingay city and nation in old testament theology vol 3 isreal life downers grove 2 inter varsity press 2000 p570.

    Later in bible the same language is used of Judah's destruction in Babylon exile in Jeremiah,clearly not literal but literary exaggeration.


    Bible teaches not all were killed,not woman,men,child,animals etc.
    p 201-239 for arguments not all were wiped out.
    http://www.amazon.com/Holy-War-Bible...r+in+the+bible

    all the Canaanites were not wiped out judges 2.3 1.21 27-28,numbers 31 woman children not killed found later in geologies.
    battles reported in bible do not mention any non combatants killed.

    Josh 13 1-6 15.63 17.12 judges 1 19-34 shows not all were killed.Many foreigners lived among Israel and participated in covenant ceremony josh 8 33,35. There is no mention of any woman or children being killed, other ancient near eastern documents mention this from the time period if it happened.
    http://www.amazon.com/God-Behaving-B.../dp/0830838260

    god commands in 10.40 11.20 to totally destroy yet in judges 2.1 same command given, told as to destroy shrines.

    biblical account cannot and does not intend to be taken literal,to many examples in judges/joshua that explain different p 201-239.

    Joshua reads he killed all and left no survivors, yet in hebron, debir, hill country- yet later they are still there.11.23 states he took whole land yet 13.1 still large areas to be taken.Cannanites still around after battles “until this day” 15.63 16.10 17 12-13 judges 1.19,21 27-35


    how many were killed?estimates.
    In Joshua 12, the victory list is given as 31 kings (generally petty kings of city-states) this would be around 70,000 people (assuming they all stayed around--a very dubious assumption in light of the international fear of Israel at the time).
    But this 70,000 is against a base of close to 2 million people! (Israel was approximately 1.6 million at the time, and these nations are said to be 'more numerous' than Israel in a number of places--e.g. Deut 7.1,7.) This amounts to approximately 3.5% of the 'target population'. The Israelites were specifically told to execute those who remained in the cities (Deut 20.16) and those who hid in the Land--and therefore did NOT migrate out--Deut 7.20

    Other estimates put the total Canaanite population at 45,000 before they fled, based on archeology.
    Bible and spade 25.3 2012 p59

    Furthermore, people in Canaan commonly used the associated term melek (“king”)during this time for a military leader who was responsible to a higher ruler off-site. (The civilian population typically lived in the hill country.) According to the best calculations based on Canaanite inscriptions and other archaeological evidence (i.e., no artifacts or “prestige” ceramics), Jericho was a small settlement of probably 100 or fewer soldiers. This is why all of Israel could circle it seven times and then do battle against it on the same day!10 Also, we should keep in mind that the large numbers used in warfare accounts in the Old Testament are a little tricky; they simply may not be as high as our translations indicate. The Hebrew word ‘eleph (commonly rendered, “thousand”) can also mean “unit” or “squad” without specifying the exact number.
    Richard S. Hess, “The Jericho and Ai of the Book of Joshua,” in Critical Issues in Early Israelite History, eds. Richard S. Hess, Gerald A. Klingbeil, and Paul J. Ray, Jr. (Winona Lake, Indiana: Eisenbrauns, 2008), 39.


    What if infants were killed?
    only god is perfect judge
    god judges by what is deserved based on crimes jer 50.29 ps 137. 8,15 Isiah 40.2. God is judge of man, does not order killing out of malice or lawlessness Deuteronomy 32.4.

    God sees the heart of man, Hitler was once a baby and would look innocent, though god would know his heart and know he would grow up to become a monster.
    7 For the LORD does not see as man sees for man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart."
    1 Samuel 16.7

    The bible says all are born into sin we are all sinful and all babies are sinners and will grow up like the rest of us and be sinners .

    20 Then Noah built an altar to the Lord and, taking some of all the clean animals and clean birds, he sacrificed burnt offerings on it. 21 The Lord smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: “Never again will I curse the ground because of humans, even though every inclination of the human heart is evil from childhood. And never again will I destroy all living creatures, as I have done.
    Genesis 8 20-21

    I like a point a friend of mine made about this. One Skeptic asked why God simply did not kill Hitler as a baby. Yet if "baby Hitler" had died, the Skeptic would ask why God did not prevent the death of this innocent baby. This shows that a far more critical view is needed than "argument by outrage." Indeed, "argument by outrage" often assumes a form of omniscience by the critic.

    God tells Abraham that his seed will not enter the land until the Amorites have reached the full measure of their sins, which would take roughly four hundred years. This means that every new generation of Canaanites grew up to be just as wicked and evil as the generation before them, without anyone repenting of their sins, proving that even children are born sinful and grow up to be rebels.
    http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/q_amalekites.htm

    It was His way of preserving Israel’s spiritual health and posterity.# God knew that if these Canaanite children were allowed to live, they would spell the undoing of Israel.# The killing of the Canaanite children not only served to prevent assimilation to Canaanite identity but also served as a shattering, tangible illustration of Israel’s being set exclusively apart for God.
    So whom does God wrong in commanding the destruction of the Canaanites?# Not the Canaanite adults, for they were corrupt and deserving of judgement.# Not the children, for they inherit eternal life.# So who is wronged?#

    Read more:#http://www.reasonablefaith.org/slaug...#ixzz2DzKxcuj8

    also all babies that may have been killed would have went straight to haven. Or it could be that god was saving them from a evil situation.
    The righteous perishes, And no man takes it to heart; Merciful men are taken away, While no one considers That the righteous is taken away from evil.
    Isiah. 57:1

    but why should we take seriously the skeptic’s advocacy for Canaanite children? Doesn’t the new atheist’s complaint ring hollow, since they are often at the forefront of defending a woman’s right to suction, dismember, or scald to death her unborn baby at any time and for any reason?
    http://www.equip.org/articles/killing-the-canaanites/

    Concerning child sacrifice
    But why should we take seriously the skeptic’s advocacy for Canaanite children? Doesn’t the new atheist’s complaint ring hollow, since they are often at the forefront of defending a woman’s right to suction, dismember, or scald to death her unborn baby at any time and for any reason?

    Atheist often support abortion, witch is nothing more than a modern age version of child sacrifice.

    so why do atheist defend the Canaanites?

    Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil;
    Who put darkness for light, and light for darkness;
    Who put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
    Isiah 5.20

    I think clay jones makes a great point saying atheist dont see the Canaanites as sinful as they approve of much of what they do.
    In his article Killing the Canaanites: A Response to the New Atheism’s “Divine Genocide” Claims he says

    concerning the sexual sin/prostitution of the Canaanites.

    Concerning sexual desire, Dawkins questions why evangelical Christians are so “obsessed” with “private sexual inclinations.The apparently not obsessed Christopher Hitchens considers “dangerous sexual repression” so serious that he calls it one of the “four irreducible objections to religious faith.”#Dawkins and Hitchens are not just encouraging a sort of sexual libertarianism per se. They are insisting that God and Christianity are in fact poisonous and must diligently be resisted and defeated. In a recent debate with William Lane Craig, Hitchens exhorted the Christians in the audience, “Emancipate yourself from the idea of a celestial dictatorship and you’ve taken the first step toward becoming free.”.

    Concerning child sacrifice
    But why should we take seriously the skeptic’s advocacy for Canaanite children? Doesn’t the new atheist’s complaint ring hollow, since they are often at the forefront of defending a woman’s right to suction, dismember, or scald to death her unborn baby at any time and for any reason?

    Atheist often support abortion, witch is nothing more than a modern age version of child sacrifice.

    Even after birth abortion
    #“Parents should be allowed to have their newborn babies killed because they are ‘morally irrelevant’ and ending their lives is no different to abortion.”
    http://www.charismanews.com/opinion/...-killer-status

    published in a journal on medical ethics



    The problem with new atheist divine genocide claims is rather simple: God hates sin, but the new atheists do not.Consequently, they complain of divine genocide in the face of Canaanite sin! So let’s not kid ourselves: at the end of the day no amount of explanation will cause today’s illuminati (or “brights,” as some new atheists like to be called) to consider God’s commands justified

    next in line,pornography,age differences.
    Legislative victory should not mean identity erase
    . There remain numerous sexual freedoms to campaign on – yes sexual – that’s what gay rights is about, not merely a civil rights campaign – and there are battles still to be won. Battles relating to pornography, the continued criminalisation of consensual sexual acts, re-constructing our ideas of relationships in relation to sex, monogamy and the illusion that only ‘couples’ might want to enter into a state-sanctioned partnership, are just a handful which spring to mind.
    http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2013/01/25...ds-gay-rights/





    10- Did god harden Pharaoh heart? only to punish him for it?.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the Lord had said.
    exodus 8.15
    and the Lord did what Moses asked. The flies left Pharaoh and his officials and his people; not a fly remained. 32 But this time also Pharaoh hardened his heart and would not let the people go.
    exodus 8.31
    Pharaoh investigated and found that not even one of the animals of the Israelites had died. Yet his heart was unyielding and he would not let the people go
    evodus 9.7
    #Why do you harden your hearts as the Egyptians and Pharaoh did? When Israel’s god dealt harshly with them,did they#not send the Israelites out so they could go on their way?
    1 Samuel 6.6
    Ex 9:11-12 “And the magicians could not stand before Moses because of the boils, for the boils were on the magicians and on all the Egyptians. But the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh; and he did not heed them, just as the LORD had spoken to Moses

    God hardened Pharaoh’s heart and we are also told that Pharaoh hardened his own heart (4 times). Both statements are true and do not contradict each other. There was no hope of convincing or converting Pharaoh so his heart would be hardened by God (6 times, 10 times in all). God did not allow him to change his mind and was given no room to do anything else but what his own sinful heart dictated.

    Notice that in a very real sense, all four of the following statements are true: (1) God hardened Pharaoh’s heart; (2) Moses hardened Pharaoh’s heart; (3) the words that Moses spoke hardened Pharaoh’s heart; (4) Pharaoh hardened his own heart. All four of these observations are accurate, depicting the same truth from different perspectives. In this sense, God is responsible for everything in the Universe, i.e., He has provided the occasion, the circumstances, and the environment in which all things (including people) operate. But He is not guilty of wrong in so doing. From a quick look at a simple Hebrew idiom, it is clear that God did not unjustly or directly harden Pharaoh’s heart. God is no respecter of persons (Acts 10:34), He does not act unjustly (Psalms 33:5), and He has always allowed humans to exercise their free moral agency (Deuteronomy 30:19). God, however, does use the wrong, stubborn decisions committed by rebellious sinners to further His causes (Isaiah 10:5-11). In the case of Pharaoh’s hardened heart, God can be charged with no injustice, and the Bible can be charged with no contradiction. Humans were created with free moral agency and are culpable for their own actions.
    http://www.apologeticspress.org/apco...1&article=1205


    וַיְחַזֵּ֤ק, a Piel tense of the verb#to make stronger. It is key to note that this is the Pi’el form of the verb, which means God strengthen Pharaoh heart. So God only reinforce what was already in Pharaoh’s heart.
    Last edited by total relism; 09-07-2014 at 12:19.
    “Its been said that when human beings stop believing in god they believe in nothing. The truth is much worse, they believe in anything.” Malcolm maggeridge

    The simple believes every word: but the prudent man looks well to his going. Proverbs -14.15
    The first to present his case seems right,till another comes forward and questions him -Proverbs 18.17

    In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
    Genesis 1.1

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    Default Re: responding to common objections to bible part 4

    Jesus never existed. You have to first prove he existed before you can talk about him being divine.
    In all these papers we see a love of honest work, an aversion to shams, a caution in the enunciation of conclusions, a distrust of rash generalizations and speculations based on uncertain premises. He was never anxious to add one more guess on doubtful matters in the hope of hitting the truth, or what might pass as such for a time, but was always ready to take infinite pains in the most careful testing of every theory. With these qualities was united a modesty which forbade the pushing of his own claims and desired no reputation except the unsought tribute of competent judges.

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    Default Re: responding to common objections to bible part 4

    Quote Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name View Post
    Jesus never existed. You have to first prove he existed before you can talk about him being divine.
    future topic, i am amazed some actually believe this above. The objection i was responding to is a common one,especially among Muslims.
    “Its been said that when human beings stop believing in god they believe in nothing. The truth is much worse, they believe in anything.” Malcolm maggeridge

    The simple believes every word: but the prudent man looks well to his going. Proverbs -14.15
    The first to present his case seems right,till another comes forward and questions him -Proverbs 18.17

    In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
    Genesis 1.1

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    Default Re: responding to common objections to bible part 4

    Quote Originally Posted by total relism View Post
    future topic, i am amazed some actually believe this above. The objection i was responding to is a common one,especially among Muslims.
    No, you have made it the current topic. Read the OP. You talk about the divinity of Jesus but you have not proven he existed.

    Please show your evidence or you must concede.
    In all these papers we see a love of honest work, an aversion to shams, a caution in the enunciation of conclusions, a distrust of rash generalizations and speculations based on uncertain premises. He was never anxious to add one more guess on doubtful matters in the hope of hitting the truth, or what might pass as such for a time, but was always ready to take infinite pains in the most careful testing of every theory. With these qualities was united a modesty which forbade the pushing of his own claims and desired no reputation except the unsought tribute of competent judges.

  5. #5

    Default Re: responding to common objections to bible part 4

    Quote Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name View Post
    No, you have made it the current topic. Read the OP. You talk about the divinity of Jesus but you have not proven he existed.

    Please show your evidence or you must concede.

    you have no counter argument to my topic. Please read agagin
    8- 8-Did Jesus claim to be divine?does the bible teach he was god?did man or the councils create Jesus's divinity after he died?



    I will give you some of my early findings on this topic,even though it has nothing to do with topic. First why is the bible [even liberal scholars date to within the life time of the apostles and authors] not count as accurate description of his life and who he was?. What evidence [not based on your worldview or biases] can you offer to reject its writings as recording what jesus did and said?. Why would the apostles all be willing to be killed/tortured/beheaded/crusifed upside down etc for someone that they invented? people will die for what they think is true, but not for what they know not to be and a lie. With not one denying jesus as lord while facing death, none said wait guys we took this to far?.


    references to Jesus outside the bible
    For example, Jewish historian Flavius Josephus (born A.D. 37) made reference to "Jesus, the so-called Christ."

    Roman historian Cornelius Tacitus (born A.D. 52) wrote of "Christus," who was "put to death by Pontius Pilate."

    Pliny the Younger (A.D. 112) spoke of the "troublesome sect of Christians."

    Suetonius (A.D. 120) spoke of disturbances over "Chrestus" (Christ).

    All in all, the "external evidence" for the reliability of the Bible is overwhelming.

    #Cornelius Tacitus, Lucian of Samosata, Flavius Josephus, Suetonius, Pliny the Younger, Thallus, Phlegon, Mara Bar-Serapion, and references in the Talmud and other Jewish writings.#Encyclopædia Britannica#sums up the force of the data:
    “These independent accounts prove that in ancient times even the opponents of Christianity never doubted the historicity of Jesus, which was disputed for the first time and on inadequate grounds by several authors at the end of the 18th, during the 19th, and at the beginning of the 20th#centuries.

    The popular historian Will Durant, himself not a Christian, wrote concerning Christ's historical validity, "The denial of that existence seems never to have occurred even to the bitterest gentile or Jewish opponents of nascent Christianity" (Durant,#The Story of Civilization, vol. 3, p. 555). And again, "That a few simple men should in one generation have invented so powerful and appealing a personality, so lofty an ethic and so inspiring a vision of human brotherhood, would be a miracle far more incredible than any recorded in the Gospels" (Ibid., p. 557)

    The Jewish historian Josephus,writing for the Roman government in the 70's A.D. records some incidental things regarding Christ and the church. He confirms that John the Baptist died at the hand of Herod (this same incident is recorded in the gospels) as well as the death of, "The brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James. . . he delivered them to be stoned" (Josephus,#Antiquities of the Jews, Book XVIII, ch. V, p. 20; Book XX, ch. IX, p. 140 ). Again we have sources external to the Bible that demonstrate the historical reliability of the text. Josephus, who was probably alive during the time of Christ, is attesting to the reality of his existence. What this also tells us is that within 40 years of Christ's death, the knowledge of who he was was widespread enough that Josephus could reference him and expect his readers to know exactly who he was talking about.

    In about 112 A.D. the Roman governor of what is now northern Turkey wrote to Emperor Trajan regarding the Christians in his district:
    "I was never present at any trial of Christians; therefore I do not know what are the customary penalties or investigations, and what limits are observed. . . whether those who recant should be pardoned. . . whether the name itself, even if innocent of crime, should be punished, or only the crimes attaching to that name. . . . Meanwhile, this is the course that I have adopted in the case of those brought before me as Christians. I ask them if they are Christians. If they admit it I repeat the question a second and a third time, threatening capital punishment; if they persist I sentence them to death. For I do not doubt that, whatever kind of crime it may be to which they have confessed, their pertinacity and inflexible obstinacy should certainly be punished. . . the very fact of my dealing with the question led to a wider spread of the charge, and a great variety of cases were brought before me. An anonymous pamphlet was issued, containing many names. All who denied that they were or had been Christians I considered should be discharged, because they called upon the gods at my dictation and did reverence. . .and especially because they cursed Christ, a thing which it is said, genuine Christians cannot be induced to do."

    Luke Johnson, a New Testament scholar at Emory University,
    “Even the most critical historian can confidently assert that a Jew named Jesus worked as a teacher and wonder-worker in Palestine during the reign of Tiberius, was executed by crucifixion under the prefect Pontius Pilate and continued to have followers after his death”
    Luke Timothy Johnson,#The Real Jesus#(San Francisco: Harper San Francisco, 1996), p. 123.


    At the level of their literary and historical character we have good reason to treat the Gospels seriously as a source of information on the life and teaching of Jesus.... Indeed many ancient historians would count themselves fortunate to have four such responsible accounts [as the Gospels], written within a generation or two of the events, and preserved in such a wealth of early manuscript evidence. Beyond that point, the decision to accept the record they offer is likely to be influenced more by openness to a supernaturalist world view than by strictly historical considerations

    R. T. France, "The Gospels as Historical Sources for Jesus, the Founder of Christianity,"#Truth#1 (1985): 86.

    liberal atheist scholar (Bart Ehrman admits that no serious scholar believes the person Jesus was not a real person.




    resurrection of jesus
    One major difficulty for non-Christian scholars has been to explain what happened to Christ’s body, as a plausible alternative to the Resurrection. Christ’s enemies would not want to steal it, since that would promote the resurrection stories they wanted to quash—and they would have quashed them by simply producing the body. The disciples had no motive to confront a heavily armed Roman cohort and steal the body to promote Resurrection stories. The disciples were tortured and killed, and no-one would die for what he knows is a lie. However, one of the earliest arguments against the Resurrection was the story the Roman soldiers were bribed to say: “His disciples came by night and stole Him away while we were asleep” (Matthew 28:13). This is absurd: how could they know what happened if they were asleep? Also, any Roman soldier who slept on duty was executed

    Paul’s statement of the gospel in#1 Cor. 15#cites an ancient tradition dating back to only a few years after the event. Mark’s account of the empty tomb reflects the Aramaic, pointing to a very early source. Dr William Lane Craig gives much evidence for the reliability of the burial and empty tomb accounts
    Craig, W.,#Apologetics: An Introduction, Moody, Chicago, USA, Ch. 5.2, 1984, and lists at least 30 prominent scholars who agree

    History documents that this man was not a myth but a real person and the historical evidence for this is excellent. For instance, the Roman historian Tacitus, writing in about 115 A.D., records the events surrounding Emperor Nero in July of A.D. 64. After the fire that destroyed much of Rome, Nero was blamed for being responsible:
    Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus [Christ], from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilate, and a most mischievous superstition [Christ's resurrection] thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their center and become popular. (Bettenson, p. 2)


    I claim to be an historian. My approach to Classics is historical. And I tell you that the evidence for the life, the death, and the resurrection of Christ is better authenticated than most of the facts of ancient history . . .
    E. M. Blaiklock#
    Professor of Classics#
    Auckland University

    Luke Johnson, a New Testament scholar at Emory University,
    “Even the most critical historian can confidently assert that a Jew named Jesus worked as a teacher and wonder-worker in Palestine during the reign of Tiberius, was executed by crucifixion under the prefect Pontius Pilate and continued to have followers after his death”
    Luke Timothy Johnson,#The Real Jesus#(San Francisco: Harper San Francisco, 1996), p. 123.


    #"One of the most certain facts of history is that Jesus was crucified on orders of the Roman prefect of Judea, Pontius Pilate.”#
    atheist scholar #Bart Ehrman


    #Atheist New Testament scholar Gerd Lüdemann declares that “Jesus’ death as a consequence of crucifixion is indisputable.”#

    John Dominic Crossan, of the notoriously liberal Jesus Seminar, says that there is not the “slightest doubt about the fact of Jesus’ crucifixion under Pontius Pilate.” According to Crossan, “That he was crucified is as sure as anything historical can ever be.”#
    “Its been said that when human beings stop believing in god they believe in nothing. The truth is much worse, they believe in anything.” Malcolm maggeridge

    The simple believes every word: but the prudent man looks well to his going. Proverbs -14.15
    The first to present his case seems right,till another comes forward and questions him -Proverbs 18.17

    In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
    Genesis 1.1

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    Default Re: responding to common objections to bible part 4

    Quote Originally Posted by total relism View Post
    you have no counter argument to my topic. Please read agagin
    8- 8-Did Jesus claim to be divine?does the bible teach he was god?did man or the councils create Jesus's divinity after he died?



    I will give you some of my early findings on this topic,even though it has nothing to do with topic. First why is the bible [even liberal scholars date to within the life time of the apostles and authors] not count as accurate description of his life and who he was?. What evidence [not based on your worldview or biases] can you offer to reject its writings as recording what jesus did and said?. Why would the apostles all be willing to be killed/tortured/beheaded/crusifed upside down etc for someone that they invented? people will die for what they think is true, but not for what they know not to be and a lie. With not one denying jesus as lord while facing death, none said wait guys we took this to far?.


    references to Jesus outside the bible
    For example, Jewish historian Flavius Josephus (born A.D. 37) made reference to "Jesus, the so-called Christ."

    Roman historian Cornelius Tacitus (born A.D. 52) wrote of "Christus," who was "put to death by Pontius Pilate."

    Pliny the Younger (A.D. 112) spoke of the "troublesome sect of Christians."

    Suetonius (A.D. 120) spoke of disturbances over "Chrestus" (Christ).

    All in all, the "external evidence" for the reliability of the Bible is overwhelming.

    #Cornelius Tacitus, Lucian of Samosata, Flavius Josephus, Suetonius, Pliny the Younger, Thallus, Phlegon, Mara Bar-Serapion, and references in the Talmud and other Jewish writings.#Encyclopædia Britannica#sums up the force of the data:
    “These independent accounts prove that in ancient times even the opponents of Christianity never doubted the historicity of Jesus, which was disputed for the first time and on inadequate grounds by several authors at the end of the 18th, during the 19th, and at the beginning of the 20th#centuries.

    The popular historian Will Durant, himself not a Christian, wrote concerning Christ's historical validity, "The denial of that existence seems never to have occurred even to the bitterest gentile or Jewish opponents of nascent Christianity" (Durant,#The Story of Civilization, vol. 3, p. 555). And again, "That a few simple men should in one generation have invented so powerful and appealing a personality, so lofty an ethic and so inspiring a vision of human brotherhood, would be a miracle far more incredible than any recorded in the Gospels" (Ibid., p. 557)

    The Jewish historian Josephus,writing for the Roman government in the 70's A.D. records some incidental things regarding Christ and the church. He confirms that John the Baptist died at the hand of Herod (this same incident is recorded in the gospels) as well as the death of, "The brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James. . . he delivered them to be stoned" (Josephus,#Antiquities of the Jews, Book XVIII, ch. V, p. 20; Book XX, ch. IX, p. 140 ). Again we have sources external to the Bible that demonstrate the historical reliability of the text. Josephus, who was probably alive during the time of Christ, is attesting to the reality of his existence. What this also tells us is that within 40 years of Christ's death, the knowledge of who he was was widespread enough that Josephus could reference him and expect his readers to know exactly who he was talking about.

    In about 112 A.D. the Roman governor of what is now northern Turkey wrote to Emperor Trajan regarding the Christians in his district:
    "I was never present at any trial of Christians; therefore I do not know what are the customary penalties or investigations, and what limits are observed. . . whether those who recant should be pardoned. . . whether the name itself, even if innocent of crime, should be punished, or only the crimes attaching to that name. . . . Meanwhile, this is the course that I have adopted in the case of those brought before me as Christians. I ask them if they are Christians. If they admit it I repeat the question a second and a third time, threatening capital punishment; if they persist I sentence them to death. For I do not doubt that, whatever kind of crime it may be to which they have confessed, their pertinacity and inflexible obstinacy should certainly be punished. . . the very fact of my dealing with the question led to a wider spread of the charge, and a great variety of cases were brought before me. An anonymous pamphlet was issued, containing many names. All who denied that they were or had been Christians I considered should be discharged, because they called upon the gods at my dictation and did reverence. . .and especially because they cursed Christ, a thing which it is said, genuine Christians cannot be induced to do."

    Luke Johnson, a New Testament scholar at Emory University,
    “Even the most critical historian can confidently assert that a Jew named Jesus worked as a teacher and wonder-worker in Palestine during the reign of Tiberius, was executed by crucifixion under the prefect Pontius Pilate and continued to have followers after his death”
    Luke Timothy Johnson,#The Real Jesus#(San Francisco: Harper San Francisco, 1996), p. 123.


    At the level of their literary and historical character we have good reason to treat the Gospels seriously as a source of information on the life and teaching of Jesus.... Indeed many ancient historians would count themselves fortunate to have four such responsible accounts [as the Gospels], written within a generation or two of the events, and preserved in such a wealth of early manuscript evidence. Beyond that point, the decision to accept the record they offer is likely to be influenced more by openness to a supernaturalist world view than by strictly historical considerations

    R. T. France, "The Gospels as Historical Sources for Jesus, the Founder of Christianity,"#Truth#1 (1985): 86.

    liberal atheist scholar (Bart Ehrman admits that no serious scholar believes the person Jesus was not a real person.




    resurrection of jesus
    One major difficulty for non-Christian scholars has been to explain what happened to Christ’s body, as a plausible alternative to the Resurrection. Christ’s enemies would not want to steal it, since that would promote the resurrection stories they wanted to quash—and they would have quashed them by simply producing the body. The disciples had no motive to confront a heavily armed Roman cohort and steal the body to promote Resurrection stories. The disciples were tortured and killed, and no-one would die for what he knows is a lie. However, one of the earliest arguments against the Resurrection was the story the Roman soldiers were bribed to say: “His disciples came by night and stole Him away while we were asleep” (Matthew 28:13). This is absurd: how could they know what happened if they were asleep? Also, any Roman soldier who slept on duty was executed

    Paul’s statement of the gospel in#1 Cor. 15#cites an ancient tradition dating back to only a few years after the event. Mark’s account of the empty tomb reflects the Aramaic, pointing to a very early source. Dr William Lane Craig gives much evidence for the reliability of the burial and empty tomb accounts
    Craig, W.,#Apologetics: An Introduction, Moody, Chicago, USA, Ch. 5.2, 1984, and lists at least 30 prominent scholars who agree

    History documents that this man was not a myth but a real person and the historical evidence for this is excellent. For instance, the Roman historian Tacitus, writing in about 115 A.D., records the events surrounding Emperor Nero in July of A.D. 64. After the fire that destroyed much of Rome, Nero was blamed for being responsible:
    Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus [Christ], from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilate, and a most mischievous superstition [Christ's resurrection] thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their center and become popular. (Bettenson, p. 2)


    I claim to be an historian. My approach to Classics is historical. And I tell you that the evidence for the life, the death, and the resurrection of Christ is better authenticated than most of the facts of ancient history . . .
    E. M. Blaiklock#
    Professor of Classics#
    Auckland University

    Luke Johnson, a New Testament scholar at Emory University,
    “Even the most critical historian can confidently assert that a Jew named Jesus worked as a teacher and wonder-worker in Palestine during the reign of Tiberius, was executed by crucifixion under the prefect Pontius Pilate and continued to have followers after his death”
    Luke Timothy Johnson,#The Real Jesus#(San Francisco: Harper San Francisco, 1996), p. 123.


    #"One of the most certain facts of history is that Jesus was crucified on orders of the Roman prefect of Judea, Pontius Pilate.”#
    atheist scholar #Bart Ehrman


    #Atheist New Testament scholar Gerd Lüdemann declares that “Jesus’ death as a consequence of crucifixion is indisputable.”#

    John Dominic Crossan, of the notoriously liberal Jesus Seminar, says that there is not the “slightest doubt about the fact of Jesus’ crucifixion under Pontius Pilate.” According to Crossan, “That he was crucified is as sure as anything historical can ever be.”#
    Ahh I see you subscribe to the Communistic scholars at Auckland. I am sure the Aussies in here can direct you to a more potent Marxist source.

    As I have said, you have not shown me any evidence. Please show me some actual concrete evidence or concede.
    In all these papers we see a love of honest work, an aversion to shams, a caution in the enunciation of conclusions, a distrust of rash generalizations and speculations based on uncertain premises. He was never anxious to add one more guess on doubtful matters in the hope of hitting the truth, or what might pass as such for a time, but was always ready to take infinite pains in the most careful testing of every theory. With these qualities was united a modesty which forbade the pushing of his own claims and desired no reputation except the unsought tribute of competent judges.

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    Banned Kadagar_AV's Avatar
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    Default Re: responding to common objections to bible part 4

    If the basis of an argument is that Jesus (as described by the bible) existed... Then it would be kind of stupid not to attach the evidence along with the argument...

    I for one would put my money on Jesus having been a Jewish rabbi who became extremist and started to act like a terrorist and demagogue under the current oppression.

    You have any sources that state otherwise?

    *real* sources, mind you.

  8. #8

    Default Re: responding to common objections to bible part 4

    Quote Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name View Post
    Ahh I see you subscribe to the Communistic scholars at Auckland. I am sure the Aussies in here can direct you to a more potent Marxist source.

    As I have said, you have not shown me any evidence. Please show me some actual concrete evidence or concede.
    who hates christian more than communist?that is why i quoted liberal scholars. Showing even most radical scholars believe Jesus was real person. But if you want to deny historical writings about a person from multiple sources, some friend some enemy some unbiased. That what makes you think Julius Cesar was real? or Abraham linclon as bart erman asks?. Why is the most written about most influential to all history person [jesus] not real? you have unjustified radical unsupported beliefs to reject him as a historical person.
    “Its been said that when human beings stop believing in god they believe in nothing. The truth is much worse, they believe in anything.” Malcolm maggeridge

    The simple believes every word: but the prudent man looks well to his going. Proverbs -14.15
    The first to present his case seems right,till another comes forward and questions him -Proverbs 18.17

    In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
    Genesis 1.1

  9. #9

    Default Re: responding to common objections to bible part 4

    Quote Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV View Post
    If the basis of an argument is that Jesus (as described by the bible) existed... Then it would be kind of stupid not to attach the evidence along with the argument...

    I for one would put my money on Jesus having been a Jewish rabbi who became extremist and started to act like a terrorist and demagogue under the current oppression.

    You have any sources that state otherwise?

    *real* sources, mind you.
    any thing to support what you wrote?any evidence its true? as my other post showed their are multiple writings [bible for one] that describe just who jesus was. Lets go on what we do have for evidence,not what we dont have,that is what historians are suppose to do. I dont go claim Abraham Lincoln was really a slave hating alien from mars, its just not their.
    “Its been said that when human beings stop believing in god they believe in nothing. The truth is much worse, they believe in anything.” Malcolm maggeridge

    The simple believes every word: but the prudent man looks well to his going. Proverbs -14.15
    The first to present his case seems right,till another comes forward and questions him -Proverbs 18.17

    In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
    Genesis 1.1

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    Default Re: responding to common objections to bible part 4

    Quote Originally Posted by total relism View Post
    who hates christian more than communist?that is why i quoted liberal scholars. Showing even most radical scholars believe Jesus was real person. But if you want to deny historical writings about a person from multiple sources, some friend some enemy some unbiased. That what makes you think Julius Cesar was real? or Abraham linclon as bart erman asks?. Why is the most written about most influential to all history person [jesus] not real? you have unjustified radical unsupported beliefs to reject him as a historical person.
    Dude... I don't think many would argue that there has been this guy named Jesus who's mother was kind of slutty and who's dad was kind of a tool...

    What you fail to convince us of is that this guy was the son of God and not the son of the milkman or whatever.

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    Default Re: responding to common objections to bible part 4

    Quote Originally Posted by total relism View Post
    who hates christian more than communist?that is why i quoted liberal scholars. Showing even most radical scholars believe Jesus was real person. But if you want to deny historical writings about a person from multiple sources, some friend some enemy some unbiased. That what makes you think Julius Cesar was real? or Abraham linclon as bart erman asks?. Why is the most written about most influential to all history person [jesus] not real? you have unjustified radical unsupported beliefs to reject him as a historical person.
    So you wish to justify your position by using Communists who doubt the divinity of Jesus in the first place?!??! What madness has overcome you?!?!?

    You have obviously lost the touch of God since you seem to have no issue in hearing the atheists words which pervert the strength and moral fiber of all they try to convert.

    Why don't you ask the spider for information on the fly. Or the strong on the meek? YOu ask of God among atheists and I cannot believe that this was a fair discussion in the first place.

    Read the OP, OP. Where is the evidence that God Himself has laid bare? Do no longer rely on the heathens words to speak for you. You have not shown any evidence.
    In all these papers we see a love of honest work, an aversion to shams, a caution in the enunciation of conclusions, a distrust of rash generalizations and speculations based on uncertain premises. He was never anxious to add one more guess on doubtful matters in the hope of hitting the truth, or what might pass as such for a time, but was always ready to take infinite pains in the most careful testing of every theory. With these qualities was united a modesty which forbade the pushing of his own claims and desired no reputation except the unsought tribute of competent judges.

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    Default Re: responding to common objections to bible part 4

    Quote Originally Posted by total relism View Post
    any thing to support what you wrote?any evidence its true? as my other post showed their are multiple writings [bible for one] that describe just who jesus was. Lets go on what we do have for evidence,not what we dont have,that is what historians are suppose to do. I dont go claim Abraham Lincoln was really a slave hating alien from mars, its just not their.
    Nope. Not a single thing.

    Just like you. Your theory might be right, my theory might be right....

    Contemporary and empirical evidence would show that my theory is more PLAUSIBLE though... What do you have got going for you?

    EDIT: AND YOU STILL HAVENT EXPLAINED YOUR COMMUNISTIC TIES!!!
    Last edited by Kadagar_AV; 07-10-2013 at 05:48.

  13. #13

    Default Re: responding to common objections to bible part 4

    Quote Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV View Post
    Dude... I don't think many would argue that there has been this guy named Jesus who's mother was kind of slutty and who's dad was kind of a tool...

    What you fail to convince us of is that this guy was the son of God and not the son of the milkman or whatever.
    oh sorry,so you than do accept jesus was a real man,but reject what the writers of the time said he was. I dont care to try and make someone accept who he is that is their choice to accept what was written of him or not. You believe his mom committed adultery etc that is fine, not based on any evidence [your worldview] but fine, it shows historical writings dont mean a thing,this thread is not about what your asking anywho.


    Quote Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name View Post
    So you wish to justify your position by using Communists who doubt the divinity of Jesus in the first place?!??! What madness has overcome you?!?!?

    You have obviously lost the touch of God since you seem to have no issue in hearing the atheists words which pervert the strength and moral fiber of all they try to convert.

    Why don't you ask the spider for information on the fly. Or the strong on the meek? YOu ask of God among atheists and I cannot believe that this was a fair discussion in the first place.

    Read the OP, OP. Where is the evidence that God Himself has laid bare? Do no longer rely on the heathens words to speak for you. You have not shown any evidence.

    i am sorry, i dont understand much at all of what your saying. If you could give me some historical/logical evidential position for whatever it is you disagree with me on, i will gladly listen.



    Quote Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV View Post
    Nope. Not a single thing.

    Just like you. Your theory might be right, my theory might be right....

    Contemporary and empirical evidence would show that my theory is more PLAUSIBLE though... What do you have got going for you?

    EDIT: AND YOU STILL HAVENT EXPLAINED YOUR COMMUNISTIC TIES!!!

    so i provide multiple historical writings for my idea of jesus, he was real and thought to have been crucified and messiah and majority of writings son of god. You provide what you admit to have no evidence for, yet than amazingly claim

    "Contemporary and empirical evidence would show that my theory is more PLAUSIBLE though".


    i care not and dont know how to debate with this logic.


    I also hate communist
    https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...ism&highlight=


    i used even the most radical liberal scholars,to show all agree jesus was a real man that lived and died under pilate.
    Last edited by total relism; 07-10-2013 at 06:07.
    “Its been said that when human beings stop believing in god they believe in nothing. The truth is much worse, they believe in anything.” Malcolm maggeridge

    The simple believes every word: but the prudent man looks well to his going. Proverbs -14.15
    The first to present his case seems right,till another comes forward and questions him -Proverbs 18.17

    In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
    Genesis 1.1

  14. #14

    Default Re: responding to common objections to bible part 4

    anyone anything on topic?
    “Its been said that when human beings stop believing in god they believe in nothing. The truth is much worse, they believe in anything.” Malcolm maggeridge

    The simple believes every word: but the prudent man looks well to his going. Proverbs -14.15
    The first to present his case seems right,till another comes forward and questions him -Proverbs 18.17

    In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
    Genesis 1.1

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    Ni dieu ni maître! Senior Member a completely inoffensive name's Avatar
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    Default Re: responding to common objections to bible part 4

    Quote Originally Posted by total relism View Post
    i am sorry, i dont understand much at all of what your saying. If you could give me some historical/logical evidential position for whatever it is you disagree with me on, i will gladly listen.
    My position is God's position for I speak from the Bible, the true evidence that has graced us all by His hand.

    Let me save you son. I speak from as a herald of His word. This board is tainted by the materialists, the Communists and the Atheists. By fighting them they drive you into their false scholars.

    Remember the truth of Matthew 6:5 from the Good Book, King James.
    5And when thou prayest , thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standingin the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I sayunto you , They have their reward.
    But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

    Solidarity in silence has been our way. We must not speak up lest we open our ears by accident by those who wish to lead us astray. You have seen this yourself with quoting Communists in the far isles from the South Hemisphere. Do you understand His message now?
    Last edited by a completely inoffensive name; 07-10-2013 at 06:36.
    In all these papers we see a love of honest work, an aversion to shams, a caution in the enunciation of conclusions, a distrust of rash generalizations and speculations based on uncertain premises. He was never anxious to add one more guess on doubtful matters in the hope of hitting the truth, or what might pass as such for a time, but was always ready to take infinite pains in the most careful testing of every theory. With these qualities was united a modesty which forbade the pushing of his own claims and desired no reputation except the unsought tribute of competent judges.

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    Default Re: responding to common objections to bible part 4

    Quote Originally Posted by total relism View Post
    oh sorry,so you than do accept jesus was a real man,but reject what the writers of the time said he was. I dont care to try and make someone accept who he is that is their choice to accept what was written of him or not. You believe his mom committed adultery etc that is fine, not based on any evidence [your worldview] but fine, it shows historical writings dont mean a thing,this thread is not about what your asking anywho.
    If I would believe all sources from 2000 years ago, we would have SO SO SO many gods.

    Can you explain why I should believe in yours specifically?


    so i provide multiple historical writings for my idea of jesus, he was real and thought to have been crucified and messiah and majority of writings son of god. You provide what you admit to have no evidence for, yet than amazingly claim

    "Contemporary and empirical evidence would show that my theory is more PLAUSIBLE though".


    i care not and dont know how to debate with this logic.


    I also hate communist
    https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...ism&highlight=


    i used even the most radical liberal scholars,to show all agree jesus was a real man that lived and died under pilate.
    Let me guess, you aren't exactly a top grad student?

    Can you tell the difference between historical writings and evidence?

    And as a PS: The communist thing was just to show your lack of intelligent communication. You can not tell our jokes from statements... Kind of makes me think you cant tell historical jokes from facts either.

    With that said, you STILL havent explained your communistic ties.
    Last edited by Kadagar_AV; 07-10-2013 at 06:22.

  17. #17

    Default Re: responding to common objections to bible part 4

    Quote Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV View Post
    If I would believe all sources from 2000 years ago, we would have SO SO SO many gods.

    Can you explain why I should believe in yours specifically?




    Let me guess, you aren't exactly a top grad student?

    Can you tell the difference between historical writings and evidence?

    And as a PS: The communist thing was just to show your lack of intelligent communication. You can not tell our jokes from statements... Kind of makes me think you cant tell historical jokes from facts either.

    With that said, you STILL havent explained your communistic ties.


    first part, great question. All i can do is exspalin why I believe in my god and why i reject say Islam etc. That is the last thread of my objections and my favorite topic. I am sorry but i wish not to get into it know as that deserves its own topic.



    not sure what evidence you want? me to go back with a recorder and tape him? that is hard to do. We have eye witness accounts you reject, that is good for court of law, i cant go and show you his body because its gone [most see that as evidence for his claims] all i can suggest i guess for what your asking is either be constant and reject all historical writings [no Abraham Lincoln,no Julius ceaser deny Holocaust etc] or give reason to reject it some places and not others. But i care not to debate with someone whos worldview controls so much,they will just reiteprit everything in light of their biases. Maybe you would find debates on jesus Resurrection interesting.

    you can find dozens of debates n jesus Resurrection here
    http://www.reasonablefaith.org/

    but this thread is not on what you ask, sorry.


    communist, sorry cant tell if its a joke. I guess i could be wrong that everyone was just joking about jesus, willing to die and kill for that joke as well, without admitting to it i guess. How they got so many people in different places/languages [enemies unbias and friends] all in on the joke, is amazing to me.
    Last edited by total relism; 07-10-2013 at 06:38.
    “Its been said that when human beings stop believing in god they believe in nothing. The truth is much worse, they believe in anything.” Malcolm maggeridge

    The simple believes every word: but the prudent man looks well to his going. Proverbs -14.15
    The first to present his case seems right,till another comes forward and questions him -Proverbs 18.17

    In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
    Genesis 1.1

  18. #18

    Default Re: responding to common objections to bible part 4

    Quote Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV View Post
    jokes .
    tell me if you like this joke? i have many more, many bad ones as well.

    What do you get when you mix a atheist with a Jehovah witness?...... someone who knocks on your door for no reason.
    “Its been said that when human beings stop believing in god they believe in nothing. The truth is much worse, they believe in anything.” Malcolm maggeridge

    The simple believes every word: but the prudent man looks well to his going. Proverbs -14.15
    The first to present his case seems right,till another comes forward and questions him -Proverbs 18.17

    In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
    Genesis 1.1

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    Default Re: responding to common objections to bible part 4

    I... I think he just contributed to the forum...

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  20. #20

    Default Re: responding to common objections to bible part 4

    Quote Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV View Post
    I... I think he just contributed to the forum...
    than maybe you like this

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Funny pastor rap
    http://www.godvine.com/Hilarious-Rap...ign=10-22-2012

    All 3 are very funny
    Dane Cook - Catholic and Church
    http://vodpod.com/watch/180680-dane-...lic-and-church
    Jim Gaffigan - Jesus - Beyond the Pale
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2k_9mXpNdgU

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1t3B7FZpmI
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2k_9mXpNdgU
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJAxRVeKnTEHYPERLINK "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJAxRVeKnTE&feature=channel"&HYPERLINK "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJAxRVeKnTE&feature=channel"feature=channel
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1aZLw_KBdqc

    Hilarious Signs: 15 Hilarious Church Signs
    http://www.oddee.com/item_86516.aspx
    http://www.guy-sports.com/funny/funny_church_signs.htm
    http://www.funnysigns.net/category/church/



    and these

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    how do they make holy water?........ they boil the hell out of it.


    A little girl became restless as the preacher's sermon dragged on and on. Finally she leaned over to her mother and whispered, "Mommy, if we give him the money now, will he let us go?"


    A Sunday school teacher asked her little children, as they were on the way to church service, "And why is it necessary to be quiet in church?"
    One bright little girl replied, "Because people are sleeping."

    Why wasn't Jesus born in Glasgow?
    Because they couldn't find three wise men and a virgin.

    I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness.
    A man was out at sea and his ship sunk, he was floating around praying for god to save him.
    About a hour later a boat came buy and threw out a life vest, he did not take it he said god will save him, He kept praying another hour pased and another boat came same thing.
    He said no god will save me, Than a third time still he would not acept help. He belived he was a pius man and if god wanted to save him he would.
    Later he finally grew tired and drowned, When he was up in hevan he said to god why did you not save me i prayed and prayed?
    God said i sent you three boats what more did you want?



    A atheist was late for a very important business meting, but could not find a parking space so he prayed to god, god please help me find a space this job is so important to me just help me this one time and ill start going to church and donate my money,
    Just than a space opens up and the athist says oh never mind i found a spot

    little girl asked her mother, 'How did the human race appear?'

    The mother answered, 'God made Adam and Eve and they had children and that's how all mankind was made.'

    Two days later the girl asked her father the same question.

    The father answered, 'Many years ago there were monkeys, from which the human race evolved.'

    The confused girl returned to her mother and said, 'Mom, how is it possible that you told me the human race was created by God, and Dad said they developed from monkeys?'

    The mother answered, 'Well, dear, it is very simple. I told you about my side of the family and your father told you about his.

    A Bolt of Lightning
    One day a priest was playing baseball. A nun was cheerleading near first base.

    The priest was up to bat. The pitcher threw the ball. The priest swung, missed, and said "Dammit!
    I missed!"

    "Don't you say that mister or God will strike you with a bolt of lightning," the nun said.

    Again the pitcher threw the ball. The priest swung, missed, and said "Dammit!
    I missed!"

    "If you say that one more time mister, God will strike you with a bolt of lightning," the nun said.

    Once again the pitcher threw the ball. The priest swung, missed, and said "Dammit! I missed!"

    A bolt of lightning strikes the nun and God says "Dammit! I missed!"



    f you don't pay your exorcist, you get repossessed..
    Need an ark to save two of every animal? I noah guy.


    A little child in church for the first time watched as the ushers passed the offering plates. When they neared the pew where he sat, the youngster piped up so that everyone could hear: "Don't pay for me Daddy, I'm under five."



    Terri asked her Sunday School class to draw pictures of their favorite Bible stories. She was puzzled by Kyle's picture, which showed four people on an airplane, so she asked him which story it was meant to represent.
    "The flight to Egypt," said Kyle.
    "I see ... And that must be Mary, Joseph, and Baby Jesus," Ms.Terri said. "But who's the fourth person?"
    "Oh, that's Pontius - the pilot.



    A little boy was overheard praying: "Lord, if you can't make me a better boy, don't worry about it. I'm having a real good time like I am."


    A Priest, a Rabbi, and a Minister...
    A priest, rabbi and minister went fishing in a boat on a lake. The priest said that he was thirsty, stood up, stepped out of the boat and walked across the water to shore where he purchased a can of soda. After he returned in the same manner the minister thought the soda was a good idea so he also stepped out of the boat and walked on the water to shore for a soda. After he returned the rabbbi decided to follow their exampled. He took one step out of the boat and promptly sank out of sight.
    The priest turned to the minister. "I guess we should have told him where the rocks were."


    Six-year old Angie and her four-year old brother Joel were sitting together in church. Joel giggled, sang and talked out loud. Finally, his big sister had had enough. "You're not supposed to talk out loud in church."
    "Why? Who's going to stop me?" Joel asked.
    Angie pointed to the back of the church and said, "See those two men standing by the door? They're hushers."

    Jesus and Moses were strolling by the Red Sea, when Moses nudged Jesus and said, "Psst. Hey, Jesus, I've still got it."
    Moses turned towards the Red Sea and lifted his staff on high. The angels began to sing, the gentle sea breeze turned into a raging gale, and the waters of the Red Sea were parted. Moses lowered his arms and, with a smug grin on his face, turned back to face Jesus.
    Jesus scoffed. "Moses, my boy," said the Messiah, "I have still got it." And with a flourish of his robes, Jesus stepped onto the waters of the Red Sea and began to stride across without so much as a ripple.
    But to Moses' amazement, halfway across the water, Jesus suddenly began to sink. He splashed into the water and began to choke and flounder as the waves tossed him around. Moses grumbled at Jesus' sillyness and parted the water once more. Moses helped Jesus back to shore, as the Saviour hacked up salt water.
    When they had finally reached shore, Moses slapped a consoling hand on Jesus' shoulder and said, "Don't worry about it, Lord. Last time you tried it, you didn't have holes in your feet."
    #
    #
    What did Jesus say when he was up on the cross?
    "This was one Hell of a way to spend my Easter vacation
    #
    #
    #
    Heavenly Golf
    Moses, Jesus, and another guy were out playing golf one day.
    Moses pulled up to the tee and drove a long one. It landed in the fairway but rolled directly toward a water trap. Quickly Moses raised his club, the water parted and it rolled to the other side, safe and sound.
    Next, Jesus strolled up to the tee and hit a nice long one directly toward the same water trap. It landed directly in the center of the pond and kind of hovered over the water. Jesus casually walked out on the pond and chipped it up onto the green.
    The third guy got up and sort of randomly whacked the ball. It headed out over the fence and into on-coming traffic on a nearby street. It bounced off a truck and hit a nearby tree. From there it bounced onto the roof of a nearby shack and rolled down into the gutter, down the downspout, out onto the fairway and right toward the same pond. On the way to the pond, it hit a little stone and bounced out over the water, onto a lily pad where it rested quietly. Suddenly, a very large bullfrog jumped up on the lily pad and snatched the ball into his mouth. Just then, an eagle swooped down and grabbed the frog and flew away. As they passes over the green, the frog squealed with fright and dropped the ball, which bounced right into the hole for a beautiful hole in one.
    Moses then turned to Jesus and said, "I hate playing with your Dad
    #
    #
    #
    #
    Jesus at the bar
    Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 16:19:23 -0500
    The bartender was washing his glasses, when an elderly Irishman came in. With great difficulty, the Irishman hoisted his bad leg over the barstool, pulled himself up painfully, and asked for a sip of Irish whiskey. The Irishman looked down the bar and said, "Is that Jesus down there?" The bartender nodded, so the Irishman told him to give Jesus an Irish whiskey, too.
    The next patron to come in was an ailing Italian with a hunched back, who moved very slow. He shuffled up to the barstool and asked for a glass of Chianti. He also looked down the bar and asked if that was Jesus sitting at the end of the bar. The bartender nodded, so the Italian said to give Him a glass of Chianti, too.
    The third patron to enter the bar was a redneck, who swaggered into the bar and hollered, "Barkeep, set me up a cold one! Hey, is that God's Boy down there?" The barkeep nodded, so the redneck told him to give Jesus a cold one, too.
    As Jesus got up to leave, he walked over to the Irishman and touched him and said, "For your kindness, you are healed!" The Irishman felt the strength come back to his leg, so he got up and danced a jig out the door.
    Jesus touched the Italian and said, "For your kindness, you are healed!" The Italian felt his back straighten, so he raised his hands above his head and did a flip out the door.
    Jesus walked toward the redneck, but the redneck jumped back and exclaimed, "Don't touch me! I'm drawing disability!"
    #
    #
    #
    Top Ten Reasons Eve Was Created
    10. God was worried that Adam would frequently become lost in the garden because he would not ask for directions.
    9. God knew that one day Adam would require someone to locate and hand him the remote.
    8. God knew Adam would never go out and buy himself a new fig leaf when his wore out and would therefore need Eve to buy one for him.
    7. God knew Adam would never be able to make a doctor's, dentist, or haircut appointment for himself.
    6. God knew Adam would never remember which night to put he garbage on the curb.
    5. God knew if the world was to be populated, men would never be able to handle the pain and discomfort of childbearing.
    4. As the Keeper of the Garden, Adam would never remember where he left his tools.
    3. Apparently, Adam needed someone to blame his troubles on when God caught him hiding in the garden.
    2. As the Bible says, It is not good for man to be alone!
    And finally, the Number 1 reason why God created Eve . .
    1. When God finished the creation of Adam, He stepped back, scratched his head, and said, "I can do better than that."

    #
    #
    An Indian man dies and arrives at the Pearly Gates. “Yes, how can I help?” asks St Peter. “I’m here to meet Jesus,” says the Indian man. St Peter looks over his shoulder and shouts, “Jesus, your cab is here!”
    #
    #
    He who is without sin
    Jesus saw a crowd chasing down a woman to stone her and approached them. "What's going on here, anyway?" he asked.
    "This woman was found committing adultery, and the law says we should stone her!" one of the crowd responded.
    "Wait," yelled Jesus. "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."
    Suddenly, a stone was thrown from out of the sky, and knocked the woman on the side of her head.
    "Aw, c'mon, Dad..." Jesus cried, "I'm trying to make a point here!"
    #
    #

    A woman went into her kitchen to find a burglar loaded down with a bunch of stuff he was stealing from her kitchen. Not having any kind of weapon to scare him off, she raised her hand and said "Acts 2:38," and proceeded to quote scripture.
    The burglar froze in place and didn't move. The woman called 911, the police arrived and were amazed to find the burglar still frozen where he stood.
    "What did you say to him that kept him from moving?" they asked the woman.
    She told them that she had simply said Acts 2:38 and quoted scripture.
    The police chuckled and escorted the burglar out to the patrol car. "Why did the woman's quoting scripture scare you so much?" they asked.
    "Scripture?" said the burglar, "I thought she said she had an ax and two 38's!"
    #
    #
    Pain in the Side
    At Sunday School they were teaching how God created everything, including human beings. Little Johnny seemed especially intent when they told him how Eve was created out of one of Adam's ribs. Later in the week his mother noticed him lying down as though he were ill, and said, Johnny what is the matter? Little Johnny responded, "I have a pain in my side. I think I'm going to have a wife."





    A man was out at sea and his ship sunk, he was floating around praying for god to save him.
    About a hour later a boat came buy and threw out a life vest, he did not take it he said god will save him, He kept praying another hour pased and another boat came same thing.
    He said no god will save me, Than a third time still he would not acept help. He belived he was a pius man and if god wanted to save him he would.
    Later he finally grew tired and drowned, When he was up in hevan he said to god why did you not save me i prayed and prayed?
    God said i sent you three boats what more did you want?


    How can I believe in God when just last week I got my tongue caught in the roller of an electric typewriter? ~Woody Allen, "Selections from the Allen Notebooks," Without Feathers, 1975


    Every day people are straying away from the church and going back to God. Really. ~Lenny Bruce, "Religions Inc.," in The Essential Lenny Bruce, ed. John Cohen, 1967

    Maybe the atheist cannot find God for the same reason a thief cannot find a policeman. ~Author Unknown

    "When his life was ruined, his family killed, his farm destroyed, Job knelt down on the ground and yelled up to the heavens, "Why god? Why me?" and the thundering voice of God answered, "There's just something about you that pisses me off."
    Stephen King.


    When I told the people of Northern Ireland that I was an atheist, a woman in the audience stood up and said, 'Yes, but is it the God of the Catholics or the God of the Protestants in whom you don't believe?
    Quentin Crisp
    Last edited by total relism; 07-10-2013 at 07:20.
    “Its been said that when human beings stop believing in god they believe in nothing. The truth is much worse, they believe in anything.” Malcolm maggeridge

    The simple believes every word: but the prudent man looks well to his going. Proverbs -14.15
    The first to present his case seems right,till another comes forward and questions him -Proverbs 18.17

    In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
    Genesis 1.1

  21. #21
    Formerly Wigferth Ironwall Senior Member Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: responding to common objections to bible part 4

    I'm sorry - I know people are expecting a wall of text - but I just can't be bothered. Not only is it a pointless exercise marshalling my considerable theological resources to counter the OP, but he's demonstrated he can't (or won't) understand me anyway.

    So I'm just going to sit here in the sun and melt instead.
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."


  22. #22
    Dragonslayer Emeritus Senior Member Yankee Go Home Champion Sigurd's Avatar
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    Default Re: responding to common objections to bible part 4

    This one is easy...

    To.8. Divinity of Jesus? According to the Bible ... Yes.
    To.9. God ordered genocide on the Canaanites? According to the Bible ... Yes.
    To.10. God hardened the heart of Pharao? According to the Bible ... Yes.

    Next.
    Status Emeritus

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  23. #23
    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: responding to common objections to bible part 4

    Quote Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla View Post
    I'm sorry - I know people are expecting a wall of text - but I just can't be bothered. Not only is it a pointless exercise marshalling my considerable theological resources to counter the OP, but he's demonstrated he can't (or won't) understand me anyway.

    So I'm just going to sit here in the sun and melt instead.
    Bah, your posting was one of the things making these threads worthwhile, even though I have almost no interest in the topic.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  24. #24

    Default Re: responding to common objections to bible part 4

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigurd View Post
    This one is easy...

    To.8. Divinity of Jesus? According to the Bible ... Yes.
    To.9. God ordered genocide on the Canaanites? According to the Bible ... Yes.
    To.10. God hardened the heart of Pharao? According to the Bible ... Yes.

    Next.
    8-agreed thank you
    9-according to bible and archaeology..no, i have to disagree.
    10-true. But did you read my post on that?.
    “Its been said that when human beings stop believing in god they believe in nothing. The truth is much worse, they believe in anything.” Malcolm maggeridge

    The simple believes every word: but the prudent man looks well to his going. Proverbs -14.15
    The first to present his case seems right,till another comes forward and questions him -Proverbs 18.17

    In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
    Genesis 1.1

  25. #25
    Dragonslayer Emeritus Senior Member Yankee Go Home Champion Sigurd's Avatar
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    Default Re: responding to common objections to bible part 4

    Quote Originally Posted by total relism View Post
    9-according to bible and archaeology..no, i have to disagree.
    The Bible says:

    Deuteronomy 20:16-17

    But of the cities of these people, which the Lord thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:
    But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the Lord thy God hath commanded thee

    Last edited by Sigurd; 07-10-2013 at 11:27.
    Status Emeritus

  26. #26

    Default Re: responding to common objections to bible part 4

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigurd View Post
    The Bible says:

    Deuteronomy 20:17

    But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the Lord thy God hath commanded thee

    that is very good, it says so in many places, it even says to kill woman children and all living inside.

    21 They devoted the city to the Lord and destroyed with the sword every living thing in it—men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep and donkeys.
    Joshua 6.21


    so could you please know read my op?. The bible and conquest narrative is alittle more than a few passages, the meaning of witch will be reveled in a total reading..


    a good start if you dont want to read all that would be to watch this debate

    Paul Copan Debates With Norman Bacrac On The Topic "Is God A Moral Monster?"
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idCch7fjO1k

    http://www.paulcopan.com/new/


    I think you will fast find, the bible and archaeology do not teach genocide during the conquest.
    Last edited by total relism; 07-10-2013 at 11:34.
    “Its been said that when human beings stop believing in god they believe in nothing. The truth is much worse, they believe in anything.” Malcolm maggeridge

    The simple believes every word: but the prudent man looks well to his going. Proverbs -14.15
    The first to present his case seems right,till another comes forward and questions him -Proverbs 18.17

    In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
    Genesis 1.1

  27. #27
    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: responding to common objections to bible part 4

    Technical error, TR.

    You ask whether or not the genocide occurred. The answer is yes. Your attempt to justify this genocide does not alter the genocide taking place, and has nothing to do with it.

    Learn to correlate your answers to your opening question. Otherwise I see a wall of F's should you ever attend higher education...
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

    Member thankful for this post:

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  28. #28
    Standing Up For Rationality Senior Member Ronin's Avatar
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    Default Re: responding to common objections to bible part 4

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore View Post
    Technical error, TR.

    You ask whether or not the genocide occurred. The answer is yes. Your attempt to justify this genocide does not alter the genocide taking place, and has nothing to do with it.

    Learn to correlate your answers to your opening question. Otherwise I see a wall of F's should you ever attend higher education...
    beat me to it.
    a yes/no question just got turned into a justification speech because the answer is yes.
    "If given the choice to be the shepherd or the sheep... be the wolf"
    -Josh Homme
    "That's the difference between me and the rest of the world! Happiness isn't good enough for me! I demand euphoria!"
    - Calvin

  29. #29
    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: responding to common objections to bible part 4

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin View Post
    beat me to it.
    a yes/no question just got turned into a justification speech because the answer is yes.
    ....and we all know what wonderful people those who justify genocide are, right?
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  30. #30

    Default Re: responding to common objections to bible part 4

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore View Post
    Technical error, TR.

    You ask whether or not the genocide occurred. The answer is yes. Your attempt to justify this genocide does not alter the genocide taking place, and has nothing to do with it.

    Learn to correlate your answers to your opening question. Otherwise I see a wall of F's should you ever attend higher education...
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin View Post
    beat me to it.
    a yes/no question just got turned into a justification speech because the answer is yes.
    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore View Post
    ....and we all know what wonderful people those who justify genocide are, right?


    it truly does not take long, but if you guys could stop assuming what i have written, than actually read under spoiler, you will see the genocide did not happen.


    so to you HT
    Learn to read before criticizing and responding to my opening post. Otherwise I see a wall of F's should you ever attend higher education. Imagine your teacher gives you book to read, than you read cover and falsely assume what book is about. Than write a report on your false assumption, that should get a f.
    Last edited by total relism; 07-10-2013 at 12:29.
    “Its been said that when human beings stop believing in god they believe in nothing. The truth is much worse, they believe in anything.” Malcolm maggeridge

    The simple believes every word: but the prudent man looks well to his going. Proverbs -14.15
    The first to present his case seems right,till another comes forward and questions him -Proverbs 18.17

    In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
    Genesis 1.1

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