men woman children?All killed?
Reason conquest hyperbole and other parts literal p 238-239-Holy War in the Bible: Christian Morality and an Old Testament Problem
biblical theology teaches, god is loving and would not unjustly command killing innocent people.
When god destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah in genesis he said he would not destroy it until all good people were out.
We know god does not kill innocent blood
`Thus says the#LORD, "Do justice and righteousness, and deliver the one who has been robbed from the power of his oppressor. Also do not mistreat or do violence to the stranger, the orphan, or the widow; and
do not shed innocent blood in this place.
Jeremiah 22.3
These six#things#the#Lord#hates,
Yes, seven#are#an abomination to Him:
17#A proud look,
A lying tongue,
Hands that shed innocent blood,
proverbs 6 16-17
hyperbole language/
attacks on military forts,not civilian populations,describe total destruction/victory in battle.
Multiple examples of similar not literal battle counts p 216-217
watch
how fast atheist run from the claim god ordered destruction of entire villages, people, kill all inside etc
debate is god a moral monster? Paul Copan & Norman Bacrac
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idCch7fjO1k
Sports players says they slaughtered the other team, that is hyperbole.
“all destroyed” and “all killed “ “men,woman child,young old” is
typical language of day and not literal.
conquest of Canaan uses
hyperbolic language such as “all”
common in bible example, jesus says of the generation he was on earth in human form that it was a evil and adulterers generation and all were bad, yet other times he calls individuals righteous .
The sweeping words like “all,” “young and old,” and “man and woman,” however, are stock expressions for totality —
even if women and children were not present. The expression “men and women” or similar phrases appear to be stereotypical for describing all the inhabitants of a town or region,
“without predisposing the reader to assume anything further about their ages or even their genders.”
Christopher C.J. Wright, Old Testament Ethics for the People of God (Downers Grove, Illinois: InterVarsity, 2004), 474–75; Iain Provan, V. Philips Long, Tremper Longman III, A Biblical History of Israel (Louisville: Westminster John Knox Press, 2003), 149.
stereotypical language of ancient near east,
attacks likely on military forts and garrisons, no archeological evidence for people civilians in territories such as jericho or Ai these were military forts
p 175 is god a moral monster paul copan
"without predisposing the reader to assume anything further
about age or gender use of woman young old is stereotypical expression for the destruction of all human life
in the fort"
p 176 is god a moral monster paul copan.
the term [ir] cities were used as outpost whole
civilian populations lived in countryside. letters between pharaoh and Canaanite leaders show them to be distinct from each other.
p176 is god a moral monster paul copan
This stereotypical ancient Near East language of “all” people describes attacks on what
turn out to be military forts or garrisons containing combatants — not a general population that includes women and children. We have no archaeological evidence of civilian populations at Jericho or Ai (6:21; 8:25).8 The word “city [‘ir]” during this time in Canaan was where the (military) king, the army, and the priesthood resided. So for Joshua, mentioning “women” and “young and old” turns out to be
stock ancient Near East language that he could have used even if “women” and “young and old” were not living there. The language of “all” (“men and women”) at Jericho and Ai is a “stereotypical expression for the destruction of all human life in the fort, presumably
composed entirely of combatants.” The text does not require that “women” and “young and old” must have been in these cities — and this same situation could apply to Saul’s battling against the Amalekites.
Furthermore, people in Canaan commonly used the associated term melek (“king”)during this time for a military leader who was responsible to a higher ruler off-site. (The civilian population typically lived in the hill country.) According to the best calculations based on Canaanite inscriptions and other archaeological evidence (i.e., no artifacts or “prestige” ceramics),
Jericho was a small settlement of probably 100 or fewer soldiers. This is why all of Israel could circle it seven times and then do battle against it on the same day!10 Also, we should keep in mind that the large numbers used in warfare accounts in the Old Testament are a little tricky; they simply may not be as high as our translations indicate. The Hebrew word ‘eleph (commonly rendered, “thousand”) can also mean “unit” or “squad” without specifying the exact number.
Richard S. Hess, “The Jericho and Ai of the Book of Joshua,” in Critical Issues in Early Israelite History, eds. Richard S. Hess, Gerald A. Klingbeil, and Paul J. Ray, Jr. (Winona Lake, Indiana: Eisenbrauns, 2008), 39.
Josh 13 1-6 15.63 17.12 judges 1 19-34 shows not all were killed.Many foreigners lived among Israel and participated in covenant ceremony josh 8 33,35. There is no mention of any woman or children being killed, other ancient near eastern documents mention this from the time period if it happened.
http://www.amazon.com/God-Behaving-B.../dp/0830838260
“a careful reading of the text in its literary context makes it
implausible to interpret it as claiming Yahweh ordered extermination”
Nicholas waterstorff “reading joshua” in divine evil? The moral character of the god of Abraham NY oxford U press 2010 p 252-53
OT scholar K lawson younger compares joshua-judges with other ANE language, and concluded the language is
“highly figurative” .
Holy War in the Bible: Christian Morality and an Old Testament Problem Heath A. Thomas#(Editor),#Jeremy Evans#(Editor),#Paul Copan#(Editor) p 215
Same language as the mesha stele “are clearly part of the totalitarianism rhetoric of the holy war,rather than historical correctness”
p224 Holy War in the Bible: Christian Morality and an Old Testament Problem
saying all were killed,woman children etc causes
“the fallacy of misplaced literalism.. the misconstruction of a statement in evidence so that it carries a literal meaning when a symbolic or hyperbolic or figurative meaning is intended”.
Hoffeirer, Israel in Egypt p 42 James K hoffmeirer.
“monumental hyperbole”
John Goldingay city and nation in old testament theology vol 3 isreal life downers grove 2 inter varsity press 2000 p570.
Later in bible the same language is used of Judah's destruction in Babylon exile in Jeremiah,clearly
not literal but literary exaggeration.
Bible teaches not all were killed,not woman,men,child,animals etc.
p 201-239 for arguments not all were wiped out.
http://www.amazon.com/Holy-War-Bible...r+in+the+bible
all the Canaanites were not wiped out judges 2.3 1.21 27-28,numbers 31 woman children not killed found later in geologies.
battles reported in bible do not mention any non combatants killed.
Josh 13 1-6 15.63 17.12 judges 1 19-34
shows not all were killed.Many foreigners lived among Israel and participated in covenant ceremony josh 8 33,35. There is no mention of any woman or children being killed, other ancient near eastern documents mention this from the time period if it happened.
http://www.amazon.com/God-Behaving-B.../dp/0830838260
god commands in 10.40 11.20 to totally destroy yet in judges 2.1 same command given, told as to destroy shrines.
biblical account cannot and does not intend to be taken literal,to many examples in judges/joshua that explain different p 201-239.
Joshua reads he
killed all and left no survivors, yet in hebron, debir, hill country-
yet later they are still there.11.23 states he took whole land yet 13.1 still large areas to be taken.
Cannanites still around after battles “until this day” 15.63 16.10 17 12-13 judges 1.19,21 27-35
how many were killed?estimates.
In Joshua 12, the victory list is given as 31 kings (generally petty kings of city-states) this would be around 70,000 people (assuming they all stayed around--a very dubious assumption in light of the international fear of Israel at the time).
But this 70,000 is against a base of close to 2 million people! (Israel was approximately 1.6 million at the time, and these nations are said to be 'more numerous' than Israel in a number of places--e.g. Deut 7.1,7.) This amounts to approximately
3.5% of the 'target population'. The Israelites were specifically told to execute those who remained in the cities (Deut 20.16) and those who hid in the Land--and therefore did NOT migrate out--Deut 7.20
Other estimates put the total Canaanite population at 45,000 before they fled, based on archeology.
Bible and spade 25.3 2012 p59
Furthermore, people in Canaan commonly used the associated term melek (“king”)during this time for a military leader who was responsible to a higher ruler off-site. (The civilian population typically lived in the hill country.) According to the best calculations based on Canaanite inscriptions and other archaeological evidence (i.e., no artifacts or “prestige” ceramics),
Jericho was a small settlement of probably 100 or fewer soldiers. This is why all of Israel could circle it seven times and then do battle against it on the same day!10 Also, we should keep in mind that the large numbers used in warfare accounts in the Old Testament are a little tricky; they simply may not be as high as our translations indicate.
The Hebrew word ‘eleph (commonly rendered, “thousand”) can also mean “unit” or “squad” without specifying the exact number.
Richard S. Hess, “The Jericho and Ai of the Book of Joshua,” in Critical Issues in Early Israelite History, eds. Richard S. Hess, Gerald A. Klingbeil, and Paul J. Ray, Jr. (Winona Lake, Indiana: Eisenbrauns, 2008), 39.
Re: responding to common objections to bible part 4
Originally Posted by Sigurd
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