responding to common objections to bible part 4

[total relism]

Why should I defend a claim I never made? Show me where I claimed the bible teaches genocide. What do you even put into that?
I only showed you that the God of Abraham,Isaac and Jacob as recorded in Deuteronomy commanded genocide specifically for those groups of people. You can't circumvent that unless you are willing to throw out Deuteronomy from the Bible.
The walls of text on how the people of Canaan were evil and deserved it is irrelevant.

sig, i am trying to help, but your embarrassing yourself to anyone who read my op or my last post to you. First the claim was not that the bible teaches to go genocide, i am sorry if that was unclear in my wording of last post [my fault i guess]. But what i meant was, that the bible does not teach genocide true,but that the Deuteronomy passage [and others like it] did not teach isreal or tell isreal to commit genocide as you claim in those passages. As i said from your qoute

"" no question it says kill all inside, men woman child etc leave none alive correct? than please read my op and tell me how after, you can still claim the bible teaches genocide from those passages.". I was referring to just the kind of passages you sited that you say teach genocide.

what proves that you still dont read my responses or op, and that leads to your false claims is statement's like these you still make.

"The walls of text on how the people of Canaan were evil and deserved it is irrelevant."


yes indeed i did this in part of my op. However had you kept reading i deal with not just the justification of the conquest, but the way and what was ordered what happened during, such as were men woman killed? all in town killed? were inocent civilians targeted? did god order killings of entire towns etc



so last post i asked you to read my post to you under spoiler,than give me a response how you could still maintain that those passages teach as you said

"I only showed you that the God of Abraham,Isaac and Jacob as recorded in Deuteronomy commanded genocide specifically for those groups of people."


now you pretend with a false asumtion, that under the spolier you pretend to have read it says

"The walls of text on how the people of Canaan were evil and deserved it is irrelevant."

yet had you even taken the time to read title over them, they are not even a topic in my last post to you [most relevant material from op]. So please try and read post or even full op, before responding to me, is that to much to ask for people to do before posting responses?.


so i will post again, please read this time with response, nothing to do with justification of orders,or Canaanite sins.



what was isreal told to do?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

No were in ot does offensive military initiative with purpose of conversion or Territory expansion.
upon entering the land Israel simply asked for safe passage and were than attacked first by Canaanites numbers 21.1 21 21-24 21.33 20 14-17

Israel was required to make peace offerings to cities in cannan from a distance dt 20 10-16.
later Israel and Canaanites lived side by side in peace 1 sam 7.14.
The nations in cannan were given 4 options
1] leave- some left
2] war
3] join isreal
4]make peace treaty
any Canaanite city could surrender and would be shown mercy,josh 2, rahab and family were saved Canaanites joined Israel 6.23. some Canaanites were absorbed into Israel rahab and 1 chronicles 21.15,18,28. In Joshua 8 Canaanites are welcomed into the people of god.
http://www.paulcopan.com/new/
Abraham the father of Israel, was a pagan worshiping Canaanite before his conversion. Josh 24.2 acts 7.2.
In matt 15 Jesus ministers to a Canaanite woman. Jesus genealogy shows he descended from a Canaanite rahab.

Drive out not kill
Isreal was to drive out Canaanites not annihilate num 21.32 33.52 dt 9.1 11.23 18.14 19.1 ex 23.28 lev 10.24 num 33.52 etc just as adam and eve were “driven out” of the garden of Eden gen 4.14
If Israel did not drive them out they would join in there religion sacrificing child etc num 33.55.
Talking with Paul Copan about Genocide in Old Testament
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4lap_BdOJQo
http://www.paulcopan.com/new/

Deuteronomy#12.29-30:
#
The LORD your God will cut off before you the nations you are about to invade and dispossess. But#when you have driven them out and settled in their land,#and after they have been destroyed before you, be careful not to be ensnared by inquiring about their gods, saying, "How do these nations serve their gods? We will do the same."


Note that some inhabitants would be driven out, implying that they would continue to live and be allowed to settle elsewhere. Some would be destroyed. The Biblical references show that the primary purpose was to drive the Canaanites out of the land, not annihilate all the people.#

4 “Do not think in your heart, after the LORD your God has cast them out before you, saying, ‘Because of my righteousness the LORD has brought me in to possess this land’; but it is because of the wickedness of these nations that the LORD is driving them out from before you.
Deuteronomy 9:4

Judgment falls on Canaanites.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

war was limited in time/space/area.
The war was limited in time and space and area.,lasting primarily one generation. The goal of the conquest was to remove the Canaanites from the land not to kill them.. Some stayed and fought so were killed. The war was against Canaanite religion not its people Deuteronomy 12.23.

conquest was limited in time and space, Israel was not to continue on in war.
So Joshua took the entire land,#just as the#Lord#had directed Moses, and he gave it as an inheritance#to Israel according to their tribal divisions.#Then the land had rest#from war.
Joshua 11.23

most important,nothing to do with justification of conquest.
men woman children? all killed?entire town killed?how many were killed?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

men woman children?All killed?
Reason conquest hyperbole and other parts literal p 238-239-Holy War in the Bible: Christian Morality and an Old Testament Problem

biblical theology teaches, god is loving and would not unjustly command killing innocent people.
When god destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah in genesis he said he would not destroy it until all good people were out.

We know god does not kill innocent blood

`Thus says the#LORD, "Do justice and righteousness, and deliver the one who has been robbed from the power of his oppressor. Also do not mistreat or do violence to the stranger, the orphan, or the widow; and do not shed innocent blood in this place.
Jeremiah 22.3

These six#things#the#Lord#hates,
Yes, seven#are#an abomination to Him:
17#A proud look,
A lying tongue,
Hands that shed innocent blood,
proverbs 6 16-17

hyperbole language/attacks on military forts,not civilian populations,describe total destruction/victory in battle.
Multiple examples of similar not literal battle counts p 216-217

watch how fast atheist run from the claim god ordered destruction of entire villages, people, kill all inside etc
debate is god a moral monster? Paul Copan & Norman Bacrac
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idCch7fjO1k

Sports players says they slaughtered the other team, that is hyperbole.

“all destroyed” and “all killed “ “men,woman child,young old” is typical language of day and not literal.

conquest of Canaan uses hyperbolic language such as “all”common in bible example, jesus says of the generation he was on earth in human form that it was a evil and adulterers generation and all were bad, yet other times he calls individuals righteous .

The sweeping words like “all,” “young and old,” and “man and woman,” however, are stock expressions for totality — even if women and children were not present. The expression “men and women” or similar phrases appear to be stereotypical for describing all the inhabitants of a town or region, “without predisposing the reader to assume anything further about their ages or even their genders.”
Christopher C.J. Wright, Old Testament Ethics for the People of God (Downers Grove, Illinois: InterVarsity, 2004), 474–75; Iain Provan, V. Philips Long, Tremper Longman III, A Biblical History of Israel (Louisville: Westminster John Knox Press, 2003), 149.


stereotypical language of ancient near east, attacks likely on military forts and garrisons, no archaeological evidence for people civilians in territories such as jericho or Ai these were military forts
p 175 is god a moral monster paul copan

"without predisposing the reader to assume anything further about age or gender use of woman young old is stereotypical expression for the destruction of all human life in the fort"
p 176 is god a moral monster paul copan.

the term [ir] cities were used as outpost whole civilian populations lived in countryside. letters between pharaoh and Canaanite leaders show them to be distinct from each other.
p176 is god a moral monster paul copan

This stereotypical ancient Near East language of “all” people describes attacks on what turn out to be military forts or garrisons containing combatants — not a general population that includes women and children. We have no archaeological evidence of civilian populations at Jericho or Ai (6:21; 8:25).8 The word “city [‘ir]” during this time in Canaan was where the (military) king, the army, and the priesthood resided. So for Joshua, mentioning “women” and “young and old” turns out to be stock ancient Near East language that he could have used even if “women” and “young and old” were not living there. The language of “all” (“men and women”) at Jericho and Ai is a “stereotypical expression for the destruction of all human life in the fort, presumably composed entirely of combatants.” The text does not require that “women” and “young and old” must have been in these cities — and this same situation could apply to Saul’s battling against the Amalekites.
Furthermore, people in Canaan commonly used the associated term melek (“king”)during this time for a military leader who was responsible to a higher ruler off-site. (The civilian population typically lived in the hill country.) According to the best calculations based on Canaanite inscriptions and other archaeological evidence (i.e., no artifacts or “prestige” ceramics), Jericho was a small settlement of probably 100 or fewer soldiers. This is why all of Israel could circle it seven times and then do battle against it on the same day!10 Also, we should keep in mind that the large numbers used in warfare accounts in the Old Testament are a little tricky; they simply may not be as high as our translations indicate. The Hebrew word ‘eleph (commonly rendered, “thousand”) can also mean “unit” or “squad” without specifying the exact number.
Richard S. Hess, “The Jericho and Ai of the Book of Joshua,” in Critical Issues in Early Israelite History, eds. Richard S. Hess, Gerald A. Klingbeil, and Paul J. Ray, Jr. (Winona Lake, Indiana: Eisenbrauns, 2008), 39.

Josh 13 1-6 15.63 17.12 judges 1 19-34 shows not all were killed.Many foreigners lived among Israel and participated in covenant ceremony josh 8 33,35. There is no mention of any woman or children being killed, other ancient near eastern documents mention this from the time period if it happened.
http://www.amazon.com/God-Behaving-B.../dp/0830838260

“a careful reading of the text in its literary context makes it implausible to interpret it as claiming Yahweh ordered extermination”
Nicholas waterstorff “reading joshua” in divine evil? The moral character of the god of Abraham NY oxford U press 2010 p 252-53

OT scholar K lawson younger compares joshua-judges with other ANE language, and concluded the language is “highly figurative” .
Holy War in the Bible: Christian Morality and an Old Testament Problem Heath A. Thomas#(Editor),#Jeremy Evans#(Editor),#Paul Copan#(Editor) p 215

Same language as the mesha stele “are clearly part of the totalitarianism rhetoric of the holy war,rather than historical correctness”
p224 Holy War in the Bible: Christian Morality and an Old Testament Problem


saying all were killed,woman children etc causes
“the fallacy of misplaced literalism.. the misconstruction of a statement in evidence so that it carries a literal meaning when a symbolic or hyperbolic or figurative meaning is intended”.
Hoffeirer, Israel in Egypt p 42 James K hoffmeirer.

“monumental hyperbole”
John Goldingay city and nation in old testament theology vol 3 isreal life downers grove 2 inter varsity press 2000 p570.

Later in bible the same language is used of Judah's destruction in Babylon exile in Jeremiah,clearly not literal but literary exaggeration.


Bible teaches not all were killed,not woman,men,child,animals etc.
p 201-239 for arguments not all were wiped out.
http://www.amazon.com/Holy-War-Bible...r+in+the+bible

all the Canaanites were not wiped out judges 2.3 1.21 27-28,numbers 31 woman children not killed found later in geologies.
battles reported in bible do not mention any non combatants killed.

Josh 13 1-6 15.63 17.12 judges 1 19-34 shows not all were killed.Many foreigners lived among Israel and participated in covenant ceremony josh 8 33,35. There is no mention of any woman or children being killed, other ancient near eastern documents mention this from the time period if it happened.
http://www.amazon.com/God-Behaving-B.../dp/0830838260

god commands in 10.40 11.20 to totally destroy yet in judges 2.1 same command given, told as to destroy shrines.

biblical account cannot and does not intend to be taken literal,to many examples in judges/joshua that explain different p 201-239.

Joshua reads he killed all and left no survivors, in hebron, debir, hill country- yet later they are still there.11.23 states he took whole land yet 13.1 still large areas to be taken.Cannanites still around after battles “until this day” 15.63 16.10 17 12-13 judges 1.19,21 27-35


how many were killed?estimates.
In Joshua 12, the victory list is given as 31 kings (generally petty kings of city-states) this would be around 70,000 people (assuming they all stayed around--a very dubious assumption in light of the international fear of Israel at the time).
But this 70,000 is against a base of close to 2 million people! (Israel was approximately 1.6 million at the time, and these nations are said to be 'more numerous' than Israel in a number of places--e.g. Deut 7.1,7.) This amounts to approximately 3.5% of the 'target population'. The Israelites were specifically told to execute those who remained in the cities (Deut 20.16) and those who hid in the Land--and therefore did NOT migrate out--Deut 7.20

Other estimates put the total Canaanite population at 45,000 before they fled, based on archeology.
Bible and spade 25.3 2012 p59

Furthermore, people in Canaan commonly used the associated term melek (“king”)during this time for a military leader who was responsible to a higher ruler off-site. (The civilian population typically lived in the hill country.) According to the best calculations based on Canaanite inscriptions and other archaeological evidence (i.e., no artifacts or “prestige” ceramics), Jericho was a small settlement of probably 100 or fewer soldiers. This is why all of Israel could circle it seven times and then do battle against it on the same day!10 Also, we should keep in mind that the large numbers used in warfare accounts in the Old Testament are a little tricky; they simply may not be as high as our translations indicate. The Hebrew word ‘eleph (commonly rendered, “thousand”) can also mean “unit” or “squad” without specifying the exact number.
Richard S. Hess, “The Jericho and Ai of the Book of Joshua,” in Critical Issues in Early Israelite History, eds. Richard S. Hess, Gerald A. Klingbeil, and Paul J. Ray, Jr. (Winona Lake, Indiana: Eisenbrauns, 2008), 39.