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Thread: How should European countries react on the NSA activities?

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    Humanist Senior Member Franconicus's Avatar
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    Default How should European countries react on the NSA activities?

    I know that our government will propably do noting substantially. It either finds it unimportant to defend the constitutions or is scared from the USA.

    But what should it do?

    Here are my proposals:

    1) We should stop to exchange any kind of data with the US immediately. This would show that spying on friends does not increase the National security.
    2) We should ask the United Nations to debate this issue and to pass a resolution to protect data from internet, mobiles etc. I am aware that the US may block any resolution, but I would like to see the discussion.
    3) We should start criminal proceedings against those involved in these programs. This means that we should try to get Snowden as an witness. I know that we would propably not be able to sentence anybody, but the inverstigation would bring things to the light and those responcible would not be able to travel to Europe any longer.
    4) We should tighten our laws against the storage of data and we should punish any (American) company that does not follow these laws. Sentence Microsoft, Google and others with some billion charges and see what will happen. If we cannot get the US agencies, we can get the auxs.

    In case the US government still insist on their programs and does not appologize and guarantees to respect our laws:

    5) Stop any meetings about the economic treaty with the US.
    how could we have an agreement if one side does not respect our laws?
    6) Quit the NATO. NATO was planned to be a defensive alliance to protect the free world. Only time one of the allies was attacked was the US in 9/11. Currently we are involved in a war to defend our American allies. Obviously we have to accept the fact that the Americans behave hostile and are more threatening us and our way of life than some fanatic moslems.

    Of course the governemnt will do nothing like this. Most likely it will wait until elections are done and change our laws so that the American acticities are legal.

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    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: How should European countries react on the NSA activities?

    7) Invite Russia to advance our relations and become better friends.

    8) start a health offensive and throw out cheap american food producers.

    9) vote a minority party into office, even if it's the communists I don't really care at this point since the big ones are obviously just about hot air.


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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: How should European countries react on the NSA activities?

    The Dutch government is so intrusive that I don't even care what the NSA does. I hope that it at least serves a purpose instead of our government's obsession with databases on just about everything. Nowhere are you as much spiead upon as here, and oddly enough nowhere are you more likely to get away with crime despite all these eyes everywhere
    Last edited by Fragony; 07-16-2013 at 09:44.

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    Humanist Senior Member Franconicus's Avatar
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    Default Re: How should European countries react on the NSA activities?

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    7) Invite Russia to advance our relations and become better friends.

    8) start a health offensive and throw out cheap american food producers.

    9) vote a minority party into office, even if it's the communists I don't really care at this point since the big ones are obviously just about hot air.
    7) I thought about Russia or China, but what would that be good for? None of these shares our values of democracy and freedom. I think Russia and China are closer to Washington from the idiologicaly point of view.
    Of course we can go on trading, like we used to do.

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    Moderator Moderator Fisherking's Avatar
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    Default Re: How should European countries react on the NSA activities?

    Germany is the most spied on country in Europe, by the US.

    Outrage is good. Government outrage would be better.

    You have more leverage than any other EU country also. Their most strategic bases are here. Forbidding access to German air space until they stop would get their attention real quick.

    It is not over politically but I doubt the German Government will get tough with them.


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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: How should European countries react on the NSA activities?

    Your government cooperated

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    Standing Up For Rationality Senior Member Ronin's Avatar
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    Default Re: How should European countries react on the NSA activities?

    things to do - for European government officials:

    A) Stop pretending you are surprised and outraged - everyone spies on everyone else, that's the game, yes even allies, I understand a certain level of public outrage soap-opera will be produced but it's annoying to sit through 2-3 weeks of news reports of people acting like offended virgins.
    B) what you should be pissed about is that they succeeded and that it took an internal mole for you to find out
    C) Talk to your people responsible for preventing this /slash doing the same thing back, fire some incompetents, beef up efforts and get back in the game.
    "If given the choice to be the shepherd or the sheep... be the wolf"
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    Moderator Moderator Fisherking's Avatar
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    Default Re: How should European countries react on the NSA activities?

    Governments spying on other governments is typical and normal.

    Governments spying on businesses and stealing technologies are normal for defense but not normal when not defense related. Windmills have no defensive applications that I am aware of and passing stolen technologies to corporations to profit from is more outrageous.

    Governments monitoring all of the telephone calls of an entire nation is not normal spying. Be it their own nation or another.


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    Formerly Wigferth Ironwall Senior Member Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: How should European countries react on the NSA activities?

    I agree with Ronin, the Germans spy on the US - they just haven't been caught yet. As far as backing Russia against the US - bad idea. Putin is a Tyrant, he does everything the US government does and more.

    Even suggesting we should favour Russia over the US makes you sound like a child having a tantrum - the idea has no logical argument for it.
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."


  10. #10
    Standing Up For Rationality Senior Member Ronin's Avatar
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    Default Re: How should European countries react on the NSA activities?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fisherking View Post
    Governments spying on other governments is typical and normal.

    Governments spying on businesses and stealing technologies are normal for defense but not normal when not defense related. Windmills have no defensive applications that I am aware of and passing stolen technologies to corporations to profit from is more outrageous.

    Governments monitoring all of the telephone calls of an entire nation is not normal spying. Be it their own nation or another.
    what defines "normal" spying is:

    the Advantage you can gain from doing it
    divided by:
    The effort/resources you have to invest into doing it.

    and my friend, the introduction and massification of digital communication has dropped the value of the divisor in that calculation to near zero.
    It can easily be done.....so it will be done.
    "If given the choice to be the shepherd or the sheep... be the wolf"
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    Moderator Moderator Fisherking's Avatar
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    Default Re: How should European countries react on the NSA activities?

    Quote Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla View Post
    I agree with Ronin, the Germans spy on the US - they just haven't been caught yet. As far as backing Russia against the US - bad idea. Putin is a Tyrant, he does everything the US government does and more.

    Even suggesting we should favour Russia over the US makes you sound like a child having a tantrum - the idea has no logical argument for it.
    Nope! Germany has no history of spying on the US. In fact Germany has alerted the US of others trying to spy on them.

    Allies I can say that spied on the US or attempted to were fairly quickly found out. Israel and France are two examples.

    The actions taken by the US Government at the time was to deny entry of sensitive areas to those nationals, employees of companies based in those countries or their subsidiaries. That gets enforced. If it is a highly sensitive area only US nationals are permitted there. Even naturalized citizens are at times excluded.

    The Germans may conduct electronic surveillance with US knowledge on the US, but that is just like the UK. It is not technically spying.

    And just because it is easy is no excuse for doing it and now is an opportunity to stop it.


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    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: How should European countries react on the NSA activities?

    Disgusting how some here talk about Putin.

    Putin is just like Obama, he's just more open and honest about it. And that's exactly why he makes a better ally, because he said right away that every nation does this and it's not really surprising. The advantage of the Russian is his honesty compared to the American who smiles into your face and plots against you behind your back. If the Russian has a problem with you he will tell you or hit you on the nose but then you can talk about it and drink vodka together.

    The American will never let you know, then storm your house at night, abduct you to a secret prison and torture you without any solid evidence. Maybe the Russian is only making very slow progress towards freedom but the American is making fast progress away from it...

    The only redeeming case being the Zimmerman case of course, where America truly showed how stalking a guy in the night and then shooting him the face if he doesn't like it is the American way to deal with perceived problems.
    Did I say redeeming? I mean just compare it to this, so far they've stalked us in the night, maybe the reason our politicians are silent is because they don't want to get shot...


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    Forum Lurker Member Sir Moody's Avatar
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    Default Re: How should European countries react on the NSA activities?

    Government on Government is all fine and dandy and you would have to be naive to think they don't spy on each other (I do find it odd how much attention the Germans have garnered from the US however), but Governments stealing Corporate designs and passing them onto their own Corporations sets a MASSIVELY bad precedent ... and if you care about that sort of thing shows how interlinked Government is with the Corporate world...

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    Moderator Moderator Fisherking's Avatar
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    Default Re: How should European countries react on the NSA activities?

    I was with you until you brought up Zimmerman. That is a different thread. Germany is blessed with a low crime rate. Even their bad areas are better than most US suburbs and the only reason it made news was because the shooter was thought to be white because of a German last name.


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    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: How should European countries react on the NSA activities?

    The Zimmerman comparison was the crown jewel of my post and has nothing to do with the Zimmerman thread. It only serves to compare the actions that are normal for individual Americans to those that are normal for the American government because the latter is a reflection of the former.


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    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
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    Default Re: How should European countries react on the NSA activities?

    What USA is doing is not nice. Someone ransacking your communications because you are a foreigner. So the threshold to spy on someone is rather low.

    Thing is UK-Australia-New Zealand & Canada are all part of the same spy group and use some similar technologies. US holding the keys to the Internet (DNS) means they are in a rather unique position.

    However not only those five are involved. China actively monitors not just their citizens metadata but their content. Russia's internal police probably are only hampered by cash flow.

    France and Germany have both been outed as running similar programs. The highest horse on this is a Shetland pony.

    It's not country vs country as much as country vs their own citizens and others. The spying is aimed at Joe Citizen and is used how? Apparently for data theft, tracking of crimes, commercial gain... But all done so opaquely no one can be sure what the real benefits or costs are. But just imagine the ability to abuse such a system by an individual, a contracted company or the government itself. Afterall weren't journalists spied upon to look for whistle blowers... Is this what the patriot act was supposed to combat?

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    Apr 04-Nov 11 Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Re: How should European countries react on the NSA activities?

    You people are ignorant children.
    “I was not designed to be forced. I will breathe after my own fashion. Let us see who is the strongest.” -Thoreau

    Sometimes chicken, sometimes feathers.


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    Moderator Moderator Fisherking's Avatar
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    Default Re: How should European countries react on the NSA activities?

    Quote Originally Posted by Strike For The South View Post
    You people are ignorant children.
    And Ridicule is the weapon of choice when people here something they don’t like but have no logical means to refute it.


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  19. #19
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: How should European countries react on the NSA activities?

    Quote Originally Posted by Strike For The South View Post
    You people are ignorant children.
    I have evidence that says we are not, the facts speak against you.


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    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: How should European countries react on the NSA activities?

    How we should react?

    Roll over and pretend we didn't see anything. Ask them to go gently on us on the second round, knowing that we'll be ignored.


    May not be ideal, but at least it's what actually going to happen.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

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    Humanist Senior Member Franconicus's Avatar
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    Default Re: How should European countries react on the NSA activities?

    Quote Originally Posted by Strike For The South View Post
    You people are ignorant children.
    So could you please enlighten us, master?

    How we should react?

    Roll over and pretend we didn't see anything. Ask them to go gently on us on the second round, knowing that we'll be ignored.


    May not be ideal, but at least it's what actually going to happen.
    It will, but it shouldn't.
    America is still number one superpower, but it is rapidly eroding. This makes it extremely dangerous.
    We should not let them pull us down. We have enough alternatives.

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    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
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    Default Re: How should European countries react on the NSA activities?

    First off ICANN should be distributed to each country and not held by a single one.

    Being a private or non profit does not mean it is immune to being abused.

    Second clean up the EU backyard first.

    Third Real Politik ... Either do something significant either diplomatically or arrest another blond wigged spy OR ask for more grease (money) and take one for the team.

  23. #23

    Default Re: How should European countries react on the NSA activities?

    European countries (and others) should take the information, learn from it and evaluate a few things. Things like how much do you want to bet the farm on the USA being & remaining successful, at the potential risk of alienating far more forthcoming partners? These others don't do it out of the goodness of their hearts either, get up to a lot of mischief as well, but they do have something on offer besides a lecture on how we should do more to fund the US dumping ground for unwanted military messes and passive/aggressive pet dog otherwise known as NATO.

    Additionally there are domestic issues to sort out. Lot's of them, and you know being pointed at the facts and specifics instead of vague hand wavy "everyone does it" can only help to have a proper debate here.
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    Formerly Wigferth Ironwall Senior Member Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: How should European countries react on the NSA activities?

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    Disgusting how some here talk about Putin.

    Putin is just like Obama, he's just more open and honest about it. And that's exactly why he makes a better ally, because he said right away that every nation does this and it's not really surprising. The advantage of the Russian is his honesty compared to the American who smiles into your face and plots against you behind your back. If the Russian has a problem with you he will tell you or hit you on the nose but then you can talk about it and drink vodka together.

    The American will never let you know, then storm your house at night, abduct you to a secret prison and torture you without any solid evidence. Maybe the Russian is only making very slow progress towards freedom but the American is making fast progress away from it...

    The only redeeming case being the Zimmerman case of course, where America truly showed how stalking a guy in the night and then shooting him the face if he doesn't like it is the American way to deal with perceived problems.
    Did I say redeeming? I mean just compare it to this, so far they've stalked us in the night, maybe the reason our politicians are silent is because they don't want to get shot...
    Disgusting how some people defend Putin.

    He's a Populist Tyrant.

    He rigs elections, has his opponents arrested, charged with blatant lies and convicted by school teachers tanding in as judges, he has Russian Citizens in other countries assassinated in ways that make it obvious who orchestrated the assassination.

    The US is a bad ally - Russia is an ideaological enemy we happen not to be at war with.
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."

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    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
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    Default Re: How should European countries react on the NSA activities?

    PVC how much has the UK government spoken out against the US spying?

    I assume that they are in cahoots and the only difference is that a UK Snowden would be a dead one.

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    Ni dieu ni maître! Senior Member a completely inoffensive name's Avatar
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    Default Re: How should European countries react on the NSA activities?

    Quote Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla View Post
    Disgusting how some people defend Putin.

    He's a Populist Tyrant.

    He rigs elections, has his opponents arrested, charged with blatant lies and convicted by school teachers tanding in as judges, he has Russian Citizens in other countries assassinated in ways that make it obvious who orchestrated the assassination.

    The US is a bad ally - Russia is an ideaological enemy we happen not to be at war with.
    If it takes helping Russia to prevent the US from becoming Russia 2.0, why should we not do it? If the system is not able to correct itself internally, the people must provide an external force to correct it.
    In all these papers we see a love of honest work, an aversion to shams, a caution in the enunciation of conclusions, a distrust of rash generalizations and speculations based on uncertain premises. He was never anxious to add one more guess on doubtful matters in the hope of hitting the truth, or what might pass as such for a time, but was always ready to take infinite pains in the most careful testing of every theory. With these qualities was united a modesty which forbade the pushing of his own claims and desired no reputation except the unsought tribute of competent judges.
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    Ni dieu ni maître! Senior Member a completely inoffensive name's Avatar
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    Default Re: How should European countries react on the NSA activities?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube View Post
    Obama ain't no Putin. We're quite a few steps removed from that.
    Sure, but are you suggesting that we must wait until we have a president who is literally Putin before we act?
    In all these papers we see a love of honest work, an aversion to shams, a caution in the enunciation of conclusions, a distrust of rash generalizations and speculations based on uncertain premises. He was never anxious to add one more guess on doubtful matters in the hope of hitting the truth, or what might pass as such for a time, but was always ready to take infinite pains in the most careful testing of every theory. With these qualities was united a modesty which forbade the pushing of his own claims and desired no reputation except the unsought tribute of competent judges.
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    Default Re: How should European countries react on the NSA activities?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube View Post
    No, but I think premature action is the worst thing possible. We don't live in the 1700s, revolution isn't really possible in the way that so many right-wing separatists want. It would be a massacre, and it would be brief. I think we have two choices: Nip this in the bud by reforming our political institutions peacefully and deliberately, or accept that we are not going to be a Republic for much longer. Revolution is just the worst possible solution, and by far the least likely to accomplish anything.
    I don't really see anyone asking for a revolution. I only see people who take the wisdom of Abraham Lincoln to heart:
    Quote Originally Posted by Abraham Lincoln
    As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes." When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty — to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be take pure, and without the base alloy of hypocrisy
    The only difference between that statement and one which would be made today is that we no longer fight for the notion that we are to be all equal, we fight for the notion that we are to be not equally starved in our rights to privacy and property.
    In all these papers we see a love of honest work, an aversion to shams, a caution in the enunciation of conclusions, a distrust of rash generalizations and speculations based on uncertain premises. He was never anxious to add one more guess on doubtful matters in the hope of hitting the truth, or what might pass as such for a time, but was always ready to take infinite pains in the most careful testing of every theory. With these qualities was united a modesty which forbade the pushing of his own claims and desired no reputation except the unsought tribute of competent judges.
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    Ni dieu ni maître! Senior Member a completely inoffensive name's Avatar
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    Default Re: How should European countries react on the NSA activities?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube View Post
    You called to 'act.' That can only be interpreted in a few ways, regardless of whether or not they have been pondering the wisdom of honest Abe.
    Strange, I feel that 'act' is one of the most generous and vague terms to throw out there. Acting comes in all forms, revolution, peaceful protesting, civil disobedience, even inaction is an act in of itself.
    In all these papers we see a love of honest work, an aversion to shams, a caution in the enunciation of conclusions, a distrust of rash generalizations and speculations based on uncertain premises. He was never anxious to add one more guess on doubtful matters in the hope of hitting the truth, or what might pass as such for a time, but was always ready to take infinite pains in the most careful testing of every theory. With these qualities was united a modesty which forbade the pushing of his own claims and desired no reputation except the unsought tribute of competent judges.
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    Default Re: How should European countries react on the NSA activities?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube View Post
    So which one of those is helped by reflecting on Abe's wisdom?

    Because, personally, I find his stance regarding the secession of the South to be far more telling than any other stance he took.
    I am not advocating a particular method of changing the system. I am simply asking you that perhaps Snowden is simply putting into action what Lincoln claims he himself should do in a similar position. What is inherently wrong with aiding the enemy if you yourself believe that the government has abandoned (or is abandoning) everything which it claims to stand for?

    Please elaborate the second part of that post.
    In all these papers we see a love of honest work, an aversion to shams, a caution in the enunciation of conclusions, a distrust of rash generalizations and speculations based on uncertain premises. He was never anxious to add one more guess on doubtful matters in the hope of hitting the truth, or what might pass as such for a time, but was always ready to take infinite pains in the most careful testing of every theory. With these qualities was united a modesty which forbade the pushing of his own claims and desired no reputation except the unsought tribute of competent judges.
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