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Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla:
He rigs elections
Yes, that is a vice but also not proven.He rigs elections
Given the current state of our media (let's just say "Captain Sum Ting Wong" here) these allegations might as well be completely false.
According to our media the muslim brotherhood and the syrian rebels were also fighting the same fight as the french revolutionaries.
Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla:
has his opponents arrested
Yes, but Snowden is wanted and quite a few opponents of the US president are currently in gitmo.has his opponents arrested
Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla:
charged with blatant lies and convicted by school teachers tanding in as judges
According to our trustworthy news organizations and their thorough, unbiased research.charged with blatant lies and convicted by school teachers tanding in as judges
Apart from that, at least they do get a trial unlike the people in gitmo.
Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla:
he has Russian Citizens in other countries assassinated in ways that make it obvious who orchestrated the assassination.
Like I said, at least he is relatively honest and direct, these people knew he was out to get them and why.he has Russian Citizens in other countries assassinated in ways that make it obvious who orchestrated the assassination.
Unlike the USA, which abducts and kills people all over the world, sometimes accepting to blow up a whole wedding party as well.
When Putin kills his opponents he does at least not cause great "collateral damage" that he explains away as "yeah, but I'm the good guy anyway..."
Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla:
The US is a bad ally - Russia is an ideaological enemy we happen not to be at war with.
Given what I just described, the USA seems more like an ideological enemy than Russia. How you can equate Putin with Russia after saying he rigs elections is also quite strange. If he represents the Russian population as a whole then the elections can't have been rigged.The US is a bad ally - Russia is an ideaological enemy we happen not to be at war with.
I can only recommend you take a more objective look instead of ignoring all the recent human rights abuses of the USA just because they were traditionally better and historically on our side.
Originally Posted by Papewaio:
PVC how much has the UK government spoken out against the US spying?
I assume that they are in cahoots and the only difference is that a UK Snowden would be a dead one.
Yeah - pretty sure we're in cahoots - quite possible we would assassinate a leak before he leaked - but then the last time that happened it was Blair in charge, and I'm not convinced he isn't actually a psychopath - so maybe we'd just arrest and gag him.PVC how much has the UK government spoken out against the US spying?
I assume that they are in cahoots and the only difference is that a UK Snowden would be a dead one.
Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name:
If it takes helping Russia to prevent the US from becoming Russia 2.0, why should we not do it? If the system is not able to correct itself internally, the people must provide an external force to correct it.
Because helping Russia might encourage a degeneration in the US. We would be rewarding Russia for being a much worse place while facilitating Russian geo-political goals which are even more mercenary than American ones.If it takes helping Russia to prevent the US from becoming Russia 2.0, why should we not do it? If the system is not able to correct itself internally, the people must provide an external force to correct it.
Refuse to deal with the US, perhaps, but don't cleave to Russia instead.
Maybe the rest of Europe should back Germany to become a Great Power again?
After all, why not?
...You mean they aren't already in all but name?
Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla:
Because helping Russia might encourage a degeneration in the US. We would be rewarding Russia for being a much worse place while facilitating Russian geo-political goals which are even more mercenary than American ones.
How is that true? It sounds like it comes straight out of a Cold War propaganda book. Since the Cold War ended, how many countries were invaded blackmailed and violently overthrown by the USA and how many by Russia? The Russians stand by their ally Assad while the US give the islamist rebels weaponry only to keep Russia and its allies down; like they didn't learn a thing from Afghanistan...Because helping Russia might encourage a degeneration in the US. We would be rewarding Russia for being a much worse place while facilitating Russian geo-political goals which are even more mercenary than American ones.
Maybe you could finally post some facts about why the USA are the lesser evil instead of quoting statements from propaganda leaflets.
Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla:
Maybe the rest of Europe should back Germany to become a Great Power again?
After all, why not?
Nice try, but I won't bite.Maybe the rest of Europe should back Germany to become a Great Power again?
After all, why not?
Germany is making steps towards Russia anyway, ever since the Cold War actually ended and our last chancellor was a good friend of Putin and called him a flawless democrat.
Originally Posted by Husar:
Nice try, but I won't bite.
Germany is making steps towards Russia anyway, ever since the Cold War actually ended and our last chancellor was a good friend of Putin and called him a flawless democrat.
Seems out of character for a German Chancellor to misread a facist socialist as a flawless democrat... Look what happened last time that was incorrect.Nice try, but I won't bite.
Germany is making steps towards Russia anyway, ever since the Cold War actually ended and our last chancellor was a good friend of Putin and called him a flawless democrat.
Germans spy agencies have put their hands up to say they are spying in a similar method to the US. China certainly is and Russia imprisons political protestors in Gulags.
So I would recalibrate on if US, Russia or Germany have any moral high ground on spying on its own people. Germany has at least some very good recent reasons not to do so, but despite this it seems they too have been caught in the metadata barrel.
Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube:
Maybe the answer is to question all spying? That is where the moral high-ground is to be had.
Daniel Ellsberg saying stuff and a Bush crony saying stuff
a video response on you link suggests how EU countries could respond - I've got nothing to hide.Maybe the answer is to question all spying? That is where the moral high-ground is to be had.
Daniel Ellsberg saying stuff and a Bush crony saying stuff
https://www.youtube.com/v/Pz5wb6LXZLs&hl=en_US&fs=1&
Originally Posted by The Lurker Below:
I've got nothing to hide.
But if you wanted to, could you?I've got nothing to hide.
Originally Posted by Papewaio:
Seems out of character for a German Chancellor to misread a facist socialist as a flawless democrat... Look what happened last time that was incorrect.
Germans spy agencies have put their hands up to say they are spying in a similar method to the US. China certainly is and Russia imprisons political protestors in Gulags.
So I would recalibrate on if US, Russia or Germany have any moral high ground on spying on its own people. Germany has at least some very good recent reasons not to do so, but despite this it seems they too have been caught in the metadata barrel.
I never claimed anyone has moral highground, I just said some are more honest about it than others.Seems out of character for a German Chancellor to misread a facist socialist as a flawless democrat... Look what happened last time that was incorrect.
Germans spy agencies have put their hands up to say they are spying in a similar method to the US. China certainly is and Russia imprisons political protestors in Gulags.
So I would recalibrate on if US, Russia or Germany have any moral high ground on spying on its own people. Germany has at least some very good recent reasons not to do so, but despite this it seems they too have been caught in the metadata barrel.
About our own secret service I'm horribly confused because the press seems to be as well.
First people think of course they knew, then they say they knew about prism, then it turns out there is also a prism in Afghanistan that is separate and maybe they knew only about that.
As for them doing it themselves I first heard that they released money to start such a program shortly after prism was revealed and/or they strongly wanted such a program, now some say they already have it. If they already have it, why did they want money to get it?
I'm not claiming anything, just saying all the info seems shady, at least Putin said right away that he is doing the same thing, no confusion there.
As for the "gulags", are they worse than gitmo? Are they even comparable to the actual gulags during the worst communist years? Or do people just say that because it sounds horrible and they can't get over how harsh russians and their weather are?
Originally Posted by Husar:
I never claimed anyone has moral highground, I just said some are more honest about it than others.
About our own secret service I'm horribly confused because the press seems to be as well.
First people think of course they knew, then they say they knew about prism, then it turns out there is also a prism in Afghanistan that is separate and maybe they knew only about that.
As for them doing it themselves I first heard that they released money to start such a program shortly after prism was revealed and/or they strongly wanted such a program, now some say they already have it. If they already have it, why did they want money to get it?
I'm not claiming anything, just saying all the info seems shady, at least Putin said right away that he is doing the same thing, no confusion there.
As for the "gulags", are they worse than gitmo? Are they even comparable to the actual gulags during the worst communist years? Or do people just say that because it sounds horrible and they can't get over how harsh russians and their weather are?
So - wait- the Germans ARE doing it too?I never claimed anyone has moral highground, I just said some are more honest about it than others.
About our own secret service I'm horribly confused because the press seems to be as well.
First people think of course they knew, then they say they knew about prism, then it turns out there is also a prism in Afghanistan that is separate and maybe they knew only about that.
As for them doing it themselves I first heard that they released money to start such a program shortly after prism was revealed and/or they strongly wanted such a program, now some say they already have it. If they already have it, why did they want money to get it?
I'm not claiming anything, just saying all the info seems shady, at least Putin said right away that he is doing the same thing, no confusion there.
As for the "gulags", are they worse than gitmo? Are they even comparable to the actual gulags during the worst communist years? Or do people just say that because it sounds horrible and they can't get over how harsh russians and their weather are?
Anyway - as regards Russia and Putin vs the US.
The US has the same prejudice against Muslims now that it had against the Japanese during WWII.
Russia has a perpetual prejudice against everyone and a history of autocracy. Russia is not our friend, never has been, never will be. The US has behaved very badly over the last decade, but the underlying ideas are still there and they still see us in a better light than they do Muslims, especially dark Muslims.
If we're being honest - the US will treat us better - at the very least they'll not cut us while they ravage us - Russia, all bets are off.
Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla:
Because helping Russia might encourage a degeneration in the US. We would be rewarding Russia for being a much worse place while facilitating Russian geo-political goals which are even more mercenary than American ones.
Refuse to deal with the US, perhaps, but don't cleave to Russia instead.
Maybe the rest of Europe should back Germany to become a Great Power again?
After all, why not?
You will need to properly flesh out that first statement there. A handful of activists over the past few years have embarrassed the US, under the guise that the US government has abandoned its principles and the Constitution. And thus the US government will proceed to become Russia 2.0 even faster?Because helping Russia might encourage a degeneration in the US. We would be rewarding Russia for being a much worse place while facilitating Russian geo-political goals which are even more mercenary than American ones.
Refuse to deal with the US, perhaps, but don't cleave to Russia instead.
Maybe the rest of Europe should back Germany to become a Great Power again?
After all, why not?
Long term the EU will need to invest in non-US computer companies.
The result of this could be a very real long term damage to the one part of the US economy that has been growing stronger.
The result of this could be a very real long term damage to the one part of the US economy that has been growing stronger.
Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla:
So - wait- the Germans ARE doing it too?
I don't know, reports seem contradictory. You can't even expect our government to be as clear as Putin.So - wait- the Germans ARE doing it too?
The West can't even keep up with Putin in terms of government transparency.
We always know that everything in Russia is the fault of Putin, we even know which mysterious killings are the fault of Putin, but we have no idea what our own governments are doing and what not. What kind of sad and pathetic state is that where we seem to be more clear about what's happening everywhere else in the world but have no clue about what our own governments are actually doing?
Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla:
Anyway - as regards Russia and Putin vs the US.
The US has the same prejudice against Muslims now that it had against the Japanese during WWII.
Russia has a perpetual prejudice against everyone and a history of autocracy. Russia is not our friend, never has been, never will be. The US has behaved very badly over the last decade, but the underlying ideas are still there and they still see us in a better light than they do Muslims, especially dark Muslims.
If we're being honest - the US will treat us better - at the very least they'll not cut us while they ravage us - Russia, all bets are off.
More Russians = barbarians rhetoric? And how can you know what Russia will be in the future? Have you switched from christianity to shamanism? I expect more from the USA than being a kinder variety of plundering hordes, at least as long as they say that we shouldn't be anti-American because they stand in for freedom and democracy.Anyway - as regards Russia and Putin vs the US.
The US has the same prejudice against Muslims now that it had against the Japanese during WWII.
Russia has a perpetual prejudice against everyone and a history of autocracy. Russia is not our friend, never has been, never will be. The US has behaved very badly over the last decade, but the underlying ideas are still there and they still see us in a better light than they do Muslims, especially dark Muslims.
If we're being honest - the US will treat us better - at the very least they'll not cut us while they ravage us - Russia, all bets are off.
And ACIN, that the USA has become what it is is not the fault of some activists and it's not Russia 2.0 either.
However the government and the general populace seem to have no problem to go nuclear and abandon all their "strongly held" principles at the sight of a scary-looking rat and that's a dangerous trend.
I wish the EU was stronger and people got behind it, then we don't have to play the silly argument game of "Let's suck up to USA or Russia!" which is fundamentally a dumb idea, considering that the EU together has bigger GDP and power than either the USA or Russia. They should be sucking up to the EU.
Originally Posted by Tiaexz:
I wish the EU was stronger and people got behind it, then we don't have to play the silly argument game of "Let's suck up to USA or Russia!" which is fundamentally a dumb idea, considering that the EU together has bigger GDP and power than either the USA or Russia. They should be sucking up to the EU.
IF the U.S. response was to let the EU then become international police officer and quit spending my taxes on fighter planes and spend my taxes on infrastructure instead, I'd say that'd be fantastic! GO!I wish the EU was stronger and people got behind it, then we don't have to play the silly argument game of "Let's suck up to USA or Russia!" which is fundamentally a dumb idea, considering that the EU together has bigger GDP and power than either the USA or Russia. They should be sucking up to the EU.
pretty absurd IF
Originally Posted by The Lurker Below:
IF the U.S. response was to let the EU then become international police officer and quit spending my taxes on fighter planes and spend my taxes on infrastructure instead, I'd say that'd be fantastic! GO!
pretty absurd IF
Thing is, the US spends far more on the military then what it needs to. So you could still cut it and play 'International Police'. Though America is more in the position of "International Godfather".IF the U.S. response was to let the EU then become international police officer and quit spending my taxes on fighter planes and spend my taxes on infrastructure instead, I'd say that'd be fantastic! GO!
pretty absurd IF
Originally Posted by Tiaexz:
I wish the EU was stronger and people got behind it, then we don't have to play the silly argument game of "Let's suck up to USA or Russia!" which is fundamentally a dumb idea, considering that the EU together has bigger GDP and power than either the USA or Russia. They should be sucking up to the EU.
I'll join that sentiment, assuming that the EU you speak of is not headed by the current gaggle of politicians that, by comparison, make even the national level political parties seem like they have our best interests at heart.I wish the EU was stronger and people got behind it, then we don't have to play the silly argument game of "Let's suck up to USA or Russia!" which is fundamentally a dumb idea, considering that the EU together has bigger GDP and power than either the USA or Russia. They should be sucking up to the EU.
Originally Posted by The Lurker Below:
IF the U.S. response was to let the EU then become international police officer and quit spending my taxes on fighter planes and spend my taxes on infrastructure instead, I'd say that'd be fantastic! GO!
pretty absurd IF
And where it is written that the world needs a policeman? Rest of the world has pretty much gotten used to the idea that not everything can be "your way". Germans imports almost all of it oil. Do they go on a conquering spree when the prices go up? No, they suck it up and move on.IF the U.S. response was to let the EU then become international police officer and quit spending my taxes on fighter planes and spend my taxes on infrastructure instead, I'd say that'd be fantastic! GO!
pretty absurd IF
Originally Posted by Greyblades:
I'll join that sentiment, assuming that the EU you speak of is not headed by the current gaggle of politicians that, by comparison, make even the national level political parties seem like they have our best interests at heart.
The Eu isn't so bad. From my point of view it has three problems:I'll join that sentiment, assuming that the EU you speak of is not headed by the current gaggle of politicians that, by comparison, make even the national level political parties seem like they have our best interests at heart.
1) National parties send only third grade politicians or politicians that failed in national parliaments. They get promoted to the EU, where they cannot cause too much trouble.
2) Local politicians: It is always a good strategy bashing the EU if citizens are unhappy with something. One example is the water issue. People at Germany were very upset abut this. However, the program was innitiated by the national governments (incl. ours) and they had several opportunities to stop it. Once the people got upset, our local politicians were upset too putting blame on the EU.
3) EU has no real power, it is still dominated by the national governemnts. There are only some fields were they have competence to pass laws and they use these far too much.
“Though America is more in the position of "International Godfather".” Really ?
“The Eu isn't so bad” Was not that bad. But now, unelected bodies dictate what is good or not, adoption of treaties against the will of population, liberal dictatorship (dictasoftship) (dictablanda not dictadura) imposing economical rules and hardship on the European Populations to save the Riches… I think the European Construction was supposed to unify the populations of the continent, not to oppress them
“The Eu isn't so bad” Was not that bad. But now, unelected bodies dictate what is good or not, adoption of treaties against the will of population, liberal dictatorship (dictasoftship) (dictablanda not dictadura) imposing economical rules and hardship on the European Populations to save the Riches… I think the European Construction was supposed to unify the populations of the continent, not to oppress them
Originally Posted by Fisherking:
Governments spying on other governments is typical and normal.
Governments spying on businesses and stealing technologies are normal for defense but not normal when not defense related. Windmills have no defensive applications that I am aware of and passing stolen technologies to corporations to profit from is more outrageous.
Governments monitoring all of the telephone calls of an entire nation is not normal spying. Be it their own nation or another.
welcome to the DGSE, mon amis.Governments spying on other governments is typical and normal.
Governments spying on businesses and stealing technologies are normal for defense but not normal when not defense related. Windmills have no defensive applications that I am aware of and passing stolen technologies to corporations to profit from is more outrageous.
Governments monitoring all of the telephone calls of an entire nation is not normal spying. Be it their own nation or another.
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