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Thread: House votes to continue NSA spying on citizens

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    Moderator Moderator Fisherking's Avatar
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    Default House votes to continue NSA spying on citizens

    In a 205-217 vote, lawmakers rejected an effort to restrict the National Security Agency's (NSA) ability to collect electronic information.

    The NSA's chief had lobbied strongly against the proposed measure.

    The vote saw an unusual coalition of conservatives and liberal Democrats join forces against the programme.

    Obama spoke out to kill the amendment. Meantime you here about royal baby and other pap.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-23445231

    Who voted how: http://techcrunch.com/2013/07/24/a-l...op-nsa-spying/

    Skipping the vote was as bad as voting against it! 12 of those.
    Last edited by Fisherking; 07-25-2013 at 07:07.


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    Default Re: House votes to continue NSA spying on citizens

    I think this is good news actually. The story has not gotten much traction lately due to garbage like the royal baby. If libertarian and liberal organizations banded together to push for this again and brought it back to the spotlight, there is a good chance it can get passed. It's rare for a bill of this nature to pass the first time around.
    In all these papers we see a love of honest work, an aversion to shams, a caution in the enunciation of conclusions, a distrust of rash generalizations and speculations based on uncertain premises. He was never anxious to add one more guess on doubtful matters in the hope of hitting the truth, or what might pass as such for a time, but was always ready to take infinite pains in the most careful testing of every theory. With these qualities was united a modesty which forbade the pushing of his own claims and desired no reputation except the unsought tribute of competent judges.
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    Moderator Moderator Fisherking's Avatar
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    Default Re: House votes to continue NSA spying on citizens

    The amendment didn’t stop the NSA collecting any data, they just had to show cause before it could be asked for and targeted individuals.

    So it was not exactly crippling the war on terror.

    Those voting against or skipping the vote don’t give a damn about the laws or rights of individuals.


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    Default Re: House votes to continue NSA spying on citizens

    Quote Originally Posted by Fisherking View Post
    The amendment didn’t stop the NSA collecting any data, they just had to show cause before it could be asked for and targeted individuals.

    So it was not exactly crippling the war on terror.

    Those voting against or skipping the vote don’t give a damn about the laws or rights of individuals.
    It just means they fell in line this time. As I said FIsherking ,these type of laws don't usually pass on the first try. There has been no big push from the public towards this bill, and yet it still almost passed. If a coalition can be made fast and lobby hard, it can be done. Calling the nays a bunch of names and calling it a dead bill/amendment only serves to hurt us.
    In all these papers we see a love of honest work, an aversion to shams, a caution in the enunciation of conclusions, a distrust of rash generalizations and speculations based on uncertain premises. He was never anxious to add one more guess on doubtful matters in the hope of hitting the truth, or what might pass as such for a time, but was always ready to take infinite pains in the most careful testing of every theory. With these qualities was united a modesty which forbade the pushing of his own claims and desired no reputation except the unsought tribute of competent judges.
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    Moderator Moderator Fisherking's Avatar
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    Default Re: House votes to continue NSA spying on citizens

    I provided a link to the vote for a reason. You can at least see how your rep voted. Pressuring them to change their minds, or just reinforce their positions is your right.

    I have seen some people spin this as a party issue blaming Republicans.

    Obama wanted it to fail and said so. You can see that the party leadership of both parties was on the side to defeat the amendment. People making it partisan just are not looking.

    The Parties are not your friends, no matter which side you have chosen.


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    Moderator Moderator Fisherking's Avatar
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    Default Re: House votes to continue NSA spying on citizens

    Mine, a Democrat voted No, just like the Administration and the party asked him to.

    Gutless Weasel! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derek_Kilmer

    At least he’s not a lawyer.


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    Default Re: House votes to continue NSA spying on citizens

    My hometown's (where I am still registered) representative voted Nay.

    But I am not surprised, my hometown literally rests under the shadow of Reagan's body. It's a Republican Mecca and it doesn't matter how corrupt or incapable the Republican candidate is, he wins.
    In all these papers we see a love of honest work, an aversion to shams, a caution in the enunciation of conclusions, a distrust of rash generalizations and speculations based on uncertain premises. He was never anxious to add one more guess on doubtful matters in the hope of hitting the truth, or what might pass as such for a time, but was always ready to take infinite pains in the most careful testing of every theory. With these qualities was united a modesty which forbade the pushing of his own claims and desired no reputation except the unsought tribute of competent judges.
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    Moderator Moderator Fisherking's Avatar
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    Default Re: House votes to continue NSA spying on citizens

    It won’t come up again either. Not unless it is a full bill.

    The Defense bill passed shortly after the vote on the amendment failed.

    This was not a party issue, it was a party line issue, and the party line won over the people. Both parties opposed the amendment and I think anyone who stood up to them should be thanked.


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    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Default Re: House votes to continue NSA spying on citizens

    Quote Originally Posted by Fisherking View Post
    You can at least see how your rep voted. Pressuring them to change their minds, or just reinforce their positions is your right.
    My rep (Paul Ryan, R) voted against it, no surprise there. I've contacted him many times, I suppose I will again. Not like he listens, however. His district (and mine) is safely gerrymandered, and he's something of an authoritarian.

    Congress, eh? Whatcha gonna do?

    A new NBC News/Wall Street Journal polls finds that in addition to setting new milestones for futility, Congress is also more hated than it's ever been. A full 83 percent of respondents say they disapprove of the job Congress is doing, the highest number for that question since the poll began tracking the number.

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    Default Re: House votes to continue NSA spying on citizens

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemur View Post
    Congress, eh? Whatcha gonna do?
    Repeal the 17th Amendment and prohibit listing a candidate's party identification on the ballot. That's where I'd start.
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    Moderator Moderator Fisherking's Avatar
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    Default Re: House votes to continue NSA spying on citizens

    So, on the day the vote failed, we get a report of this:

    Feds tell Web firms to turn over user account passwords


    http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-57...unt-passwords/


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    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: House votes to continue NSA spying on citizens

    Passwords? That seems a bit redundant considering they wanted the SSL Master Keys so they can decrypt all communication to and from websites.

    http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/355146

    Of course passwords might be more useful in case they already have a suspect.

    It's also funny because our minister of the interior said early on that we should just encrypt our communication if we don't like it. Now it turns out the NSA was whining about people encrypting their communication for a while because then they can't access it but they really should.


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    Moderator Moderator Fisherking's Avatar
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    Default Re: House votes to continue NSA spying on citizens

    Encrypted communications are a priority for the NSA, in the US or elsewhere. They made a claim a few weeks back that there was only one instance when they could not decrypt them, and they were whining about that one, but I suspect that was misinformation, and it was broken too.

    The have keys for most of that software too.


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    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: House votes to continue NSA spying on citizens

    I'm not sure they have them, wouldn't make much sense to ask for them in that case.

    Either way I thought about the issue and just wanted to throw out an idea:

    How about the information continues to be collected but it not accessible by secret agencies. Instead, the agencies have to gain information through an ethics commission that consists of experts from all relevant fields, such as technology, law and ethics/philosophy which are elected by the scientific community. We already have similar commissions in medical fields and while they're not perfect, they seem to provide a relatively (considering there will always be humans involved) good way to balance interests and provide a relatively unbiased approach to subjects. And they would be elected by a community that attempts to be objective and does not favor either extreme of the available options.

    I'm not saying it's going to or should happen, but what do you think about such an approach?


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    Moderator Moderator Fisherking's Avatar
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    Default Re: House votes to continue NSA spying on citizens

    Their oversight by judges is phony. They look only at the laws with permit them to spy (patriot act and Defense bill, while not considering the Constitution. That is no protection at all.

    The idea of a regulatory panel is sound, it is just likely that it will be co-opted.

    Anything done in secret is likely to turn out the same and the government wishes to keep it all secret.


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    Moderator Moderator Fisherking's Avatar
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    Default Re: House votes to continue NSA spying on citizens

    Lawmakers Who Upheld NSA Phone Spying Received Double the Defense Industry Cash

    http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/201...oney-nsa-vote/

    follow the money, remember money is only speech, the only speech that get action, it would seem.


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    Moderator Moderator Fisherking's Avatar
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    Default Re: House votes to continue NSA spying on citizens

    Remarkably unremarkably this story was not picked up by TV news of any viewpoint.

    Just a few bloggers picking up on the original Wired story.

    Just Party politics as usual and if both do it, it must be ok.

    I see the silence as acceptance of the corruption and this is just vote selling.

    No one here seems to care either.


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    ridiculously suspicious Member TheLastDays's Avatar
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    Default Re: House votes to continue NSA spying on citizens

    I was actually going to say something about the fact that the announcement of the UK getting "opt out porn filters" instead of "opt in" caused a much bigger uproar (at least on this forum) than this story... It's sad but then again I'm not sure what to say about this. I'm not American and I've always had a hard time understanding the politics of your country.
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    Default Re: House votes to continue NSA spying on citizens

    Quote Originally Posted by Fisherking View Post
    No one here seems to care either.
    I think we're just too used to corruption. My first thought when I saw your post was "that's not surprising".

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    Apr 04-Nov 11 Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Re: House votes to continue NSA spying on citizens

    No one here seems to care either.
    Get off the cross honey, jesus needs it
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    Moderator Moderator Fisherking's Avatar
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    Default Re: House votes to continue NSA spying on citizens

    Unfortunately, you are right, it is not at all surprising.

    However, it is corrupt. And it would be a huge scandal if it were clearly one party or the other.

    In stead we are faced with a stone wall of silence! I have not found a single example of network coverage.

    This is the clearest example we have had in a very long time of those willing to cast votes for the people or those completely co-opted by the Political- Military- Industrial Complex. The Constitution and individual rights vs. the Patriot Act and the Security State. And who is reporting it? Wired Magazine and a few bloggers.

    So much for a free press. Just a bunch of party mouthpieces supporting the corrupt establishment.

    Silence is acceptance. Silence condones the corruption. Not speaking out is silent agreement.

    If you can’t be bothered, then why get upset with Gun Lobbies, Church Lobbies, or any other? Why get upset with race and justice?

    Why bother with politics at all?
    Last edited by Fisherking; 07-31-2013 at 20:26. Reason: spelling


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    Default Re: House votes to continue NSA spying on citizens

    It's interesting.
    Today on CNN I saw an Oregon Senator fielding questions.
    More interesting than what he had to say, was the fact he had been active working against the abuses of the NSA for quite some time.
    So why has it never surfaced until now?
    Ja-mata TosaInu

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    Default Re: House votes to continue NSA spying on citizens

    Ah, "voice in the wilderness" sort. Explains the lack of media attention.
    So I guess it is another reason to thank Snowden for pushing the issue public.
    You'd think that the media would have been all over this "if only they knew"; which they apparently did.
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    Default Re: House votes to continue NSA spying on citizens

    XKeyscore: NSA tool collects 'nearly everything a user does on the internet'

    A top secret National Security Agency program allows analysts to search with no prior authorization through vast databases containing emails, online chats and the browsing histories of millions of individuals, according to documents provided by whistleblower Edward Snowden.

    The NSA boasts in training materials that the program, called XKeyscore, is its "widest-reaching" system for developing intelligence from the internet.

    The latest revelations will add to the intense public and congressional debate around the extent of NSA surveillance programs. They come as senior intelligence officials testify to the Senate judiciary committee on Wednesday, releasing classified documents in response to the Guardian's earlier stories on bulk collection of phone records and Fisa surveillance court oversight.

    The files shed light on one of Snowden's most controversial statements, made in his first video interview published by the Guardian on June 10.

    "I, sitting at my desk," said Snowden, could "wiretap anyone, from you or your accountant, to a federal judge or even the president, if I had a personal email".

    US officials vehemently denied this specific claim. Mike Rogers, the Republican chairman of the House intelligence committee, said of Snowden's assertion: "He's lying. It's impossible for him to do what he was saying he could do."

    But training materials for XKeyscore detail how analysts can use it and other systems to mine enormous agency databases by filling in a simple on-screen form giving only a broad justification for the search. The request is not reviewed by a court or any NSA personnel before it is processed.

    XKeyscore, the documents boast, is the NSA's "widest reaching" system developing intelligence from computer networks – what the agency calls Digital Network Intelligence (DNI). One presentation claims the program covers "nearly everything a typical user does on the internet", including the content of emails, websites visited and searches, as well as their metadata.

    Analysts can also use XKeyscore and other NSA systems to obtain ongoing "real-time" interception of an individual's internet activity.

    Under US law, the NSA is required to obtain an individualized Fisa warrant only if the target of their surveillance is a 'US person', though no such warrant is required for intercepting the communications of Americans with foreign targets. But XKeyscore provides the technological capability, if not the legal authority, to target even US persons for extensive electronic surveillance without a warrant provided that some identifying information, such as their email or IP address, is known to the analyst.

    One training slide illustrates the digital activity constantly being collected by XKeyscore and the analyst's ability to query the databases at any time....

    Contains slides and everything of what the NSA does.
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    Upstanding Member rvg's Avatar
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    Default Re: House votes to continue NSA spying on citizens

    According to the slides the data is stored for no more than 30 days simply because they cannot physically store long term this volume of information. That's not scary at all actually.
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    Default Re: House votes to continue NSA spying on citizens

    I think GCHQ was 3 Months, but yes, there are physical limits.
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    Upstanding Member rvg's Avatar
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    Default Re: House votes to continue NSA spying on citizens

    Quote Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube View Post
    That's not the point. The point is that these are secret laws, secret courts, secret protocols, and the oversight committees that oversee them are in the defense industry's pocket. It doesn't matter how benign the rules are when nobody has to follow them.
    So that basically means that the US government operates like just about any other government.
    "And if the people raise a great howl against my barbarity and cruelty, I will answer that war is war and not popularity seeking. If they want peace, they and their relatives must stop the war." - William Tecumseh Sherman

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    Upstanding Member rvg's Avatar
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    Default Re: House votes to continue NSA spying on citizens

    Quote Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube View Post
    Whatever. We can do better than a Congress full of a spineless tools,
    Indeed...

    a supreme court full of equally spineless tools,


    and a president who can't keep his lies and promises straight.
    Meh. Maybe he knows something that he can't share with us as far as why this program should keep on going.

    If you're not outraged, you're part of the problem.
    It would be akin to getting outraged over the fact that the world is not perfect.
    "And if the people raise a great howl against my barbarity and cruelty, I will answer that war is war and not popularity seeking. If they want peace, they and their relatives must stop the war." - William Tecumseh Sherman

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    ridiculously suspicious Member TheLastDays's Avatar
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    Default Re: House votes to continue NSA spying on citizens

    Quote Originally Posted by rvg View Post
    Meh. Maybe he knows something that he can't share with us as far as why this program should keep on going.


    It would be akin to getting outraged over the fact that the world is not perfect.
    Outrage is maybe not the answer but indifference isn't either. But the first statement is nonsense if you believe in true democracy.

    Now don't get me wrong I don't believe democracy is the holy grail but if one believes in it (and the US believe that they are a democratic nation, no?) how can there be anything the people should not know? How can the people rule the country if they don't know what's going on?
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    Upstanding Member rvg's Avatar
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    Default Re: House votes to continue NSA spying on citizens

    Quote Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube View Post
    If the Supreme Court wasn't spineless and/or totally corrupt, Money would not equal speech in the most literal and democratically offensive way possible. No love for the supremes.
    Can you back up this claim with something specific?


    Which would be part of the problem. The President serves a 4-8 year term, so if every incoming president suddenly is faced with the facts of our secretive and perpetually growing national security apparatus, and that truth is enough to compromise said president's values, then I blame the apparatus. Obviously there's crap going on that shouldn't be going on, and we can't know about it because why, again? If its too damned sneaky and evil for the public to know about, then its a bad ing idea and should be done away with.
    A state with no state secrets? Unlikely.

    Not really. We've been spinning the wheels in this country for decades, and complacency is the enemy. Only the most ignorant bastard living under a rock is unaware of how corrupt our government is, and only a self-hating ignorant bastard is okay with it. I hope my generation tears this crap down, but more likely we'll just watch and laugh, like previous generations.
    You're letting the emotions get the best of you over something that's as old as the civilization itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheLastDays View Post
    Outrage is maybe not the answer but indifference isn't either. But the first statement is nonsense if you believe in true democracy.
    True democracy died with the ancient Athens.

    Now don't get me wrong I don't believe democracy is the holy grail but if one believes in it (and the US believe that they are a democratic nation, no?) how can there be anything the people should not know? How can the people rule the country if they don't know what's going on?
    People aren't entitled to know everything. Joe Blow down the road doesn't need to know specific details about the U.S. nuclear capability.
    Last edited by rvg; 08-01-2013 at 19:40.
    "And if the people raise a great howl against my barbarity and cruelty, I will answer that war is war and not popularity seeking. If they want peace, they and their relatives must stop the war." - William Tecumseh Sherman

    “The market, like the Lord, helps those who help themselves. But unlike the Lord, the market does not forgive those who know not what they do.” - Warren Buffett

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