House votes to continue NSA spying on citizens

[Montmorency]

You're making my case for me. The premise of Democracy is accountability to the people. We are watching that erode one Patriot Act, NDAA, Drone Strike, or bit of corporate subversion at a time. The whole damned thing needs to be brought before the people, it has gone far enough.

Unfortunately for you, at this point the people will plump for the system, or at least not nearly enough are disgruntled to your level for profound changes to occur.

[rvg]

You're making my case for me. The premise of Democracy is accountability to the people. We are watching that erode one Patriot Act, NDAA, Drone Strike, or bit of corporate subversion at a time. The whole damned thing needs to be brought before the people, it has gone far enough.

I'm not sure what's your beef with drone strikes, but as far as bringing the whole thing "before the people", what makes you think that "the people" will use it wisely and to a more beneficial net effect than the state would?

There is a legislative/corporate alliance that includes the Defense industry and the Intelligence Apparatus, and it is every bit the monster that Eisenhower warned us about. The crap has to go, or the government has to admit that democracy is not the future. The alternative is an entire generation of people like me who fully understand that this is a load of crap we're being fed.

If a man is not for sale, he's not for sale no matter what. Look at John McCain for instance. I disagree with him on a great deal of issues, but the man has honor and integrity and he managed to keep them throughout the decades in the Senate. Elect people with integrity, you get a government with integrity. Otherwise, garbage in -- garbage out.

[Montmorency]

Eh, well - if congressional aides are said to pretty much do all the work for their superiors, perhaps we might just leave it all to them?

[rvg]

I have a beef with Awlaki getting killed. The man was never charged with anything, and we will never know if just anyone can in fact be killed by a Drone at the President's whim. There is literally no way to know, because the entire criteria are classified with the rest of the program.

And you think that if the people held the trigger to that hellfire missile, they would not have pulled that trigger?

The whole thing needs to be put before the people because it is the people who own this boat. Congress has become an institution, not a governing body. The entire system needs to be re-evaluated, and I wouldn't even know where to start. I just know it needs to happen. What we have is not good government, it is good graft.

Here's a thought... if "the people" get to run everything, who will be held accountable for when things go wrong? The people aren't gonna flagellate themselves, they'll forgive themselves and pretend like nothing happened.

[rvg]

That's not the point. I think any laws that pertain to killing US citizens should be openly debated before being acted upon. In this case the government took it upon itself to draft secret laws and then kill the guy, without ever having a public debate on the implications. The people were cut out of the deal and urged to cheer about it. That's tin-foil-hat-shit that is all too real.

If that's your pet peeve, I understand. To me it made little difference, I'd kill that bastard if he were American, Saudi, Russian or Papuan. It made little difference to me. If the government tries something like that on someone who does NOT publicly declare himself to be the enemy, yeah, I'll have a problem with that. As far as Awlaki goes, he's precisely where he belongs.

All I'm arguing for is open government. The occasional referendum is essential to that.

How occasional? What kinds of issues in your opinion would be worthy of a referendum?

[rvg]

Pay attention! They circumvented the constitution and the American people are taking it as a matter of course. We have fallen, hard. Its not a pet peeve. If you have any basic understanding of law at all, you understand the power of precedent. Our bureaucracy runs on it, and always has.

I understand and I do not care. Rules are good, but we can't be slaves to those rules 100% of the time and regardless of what's going on. Between feeling righteous and having Awlaki alive vs feeling less righteous and having him dead I'd choose the latter every time.

Congress is what needs a referendum. The military industrial complex needs a referendum. Congress no longer represents the will of the people, and I think the people deserve a chance to demonstrate that fact in a fair referendum of some sort. Gerrymandering and other sorts of corruption have rendered the normal methods obsolete or, rather, defeated at the hands of politicians.

You offer no specifics. You want to take the power, but you aren't stating for what purpose. How are you different from the government?

[rvg]

He'd be dead either way. The problem is that the checks and balances were ignored to make it happen. He wasn't exactly Bin Laden. The precedent of how Awlawki came to be killed is way more important than the fact that he was killed.

The precedent is: if you declare yourself to be the enemy of the US and actively aid enemies of the US, you get to die in a huge explosion. I like that kind of precedent.

I don't want shit. Nobody does. Congress should have all the power it was designed to have, and it should be doing the peoples' work with that power. That's not what is going on. Do you know the percentage of congressmen that go on to be lobbyists when they are done in Congress? Over 50%. Did you know insider trading rules don't apply to Congress? The whole damned thing is a giant, unwieldy, embarassing, and expensive conflict of interest. It needs to be reformed, not replaced. Not just congress, but the whole apparatus of government.

Will if be staffed by a race of altruistic supermen? No matter what system gets put in place, it will be abused. Every time. Guaranteed. The current system would work just fine if we have the will to send good people to Washington. Not partisan hacks, but actual decent people who care about this country. Change that, and you won't have to change anything else, the system will work like a charm just the way it is.

[rvg]

Until it isn't just enemies of the state.

If that day comes I'll say "Cube, you were right, let's get our guns."

Did you know that chaining yourself to a tree can get you over 30 years in prison as an environmental "terrorist"? Did you know that legislation was pushed for in large part by Haliburton, in order to safeguard their natural gas exploitation of public land, under special exemptions from long-standing environmental law?

Has anyone been sentenced to 30 years for that?

Did you know that the private prison industry houses many illegal immigrants, and has also been instrumental in lobbying for tougher laws on immigration? This crap is so broken.

Sure, the industry is looking out for itself. What's there to do, send those guys to state prisons? Release them? Give them citizenship? There are no easy solutions.

I agree, but you are refusing to see how borked the system is. No honest man can survive in Washington. Even your buddy McCain sold out years ago.

I see its borkedness, but its borkedness must be taken in the context of the big picture. Certain changes can be made, but they must be slow, gradual and well thought out. I firmly believe that if people truly lose their patience with some aspect of our life, they will change that aspect fairly quickly and fairly radically. I also do not think that any specific American problem has reached its boiling point just yet.

[Xiahou]

First the NSA, now the DEA...

A secretive U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration unit is funneling information from intelligence intercepts, wiretaps, informants and a massive database of telephone records to authorities across the nation to help them launch criminal investigations of Americans.

Although these cases rarely involve national security issues, documents reviewed by Reuters show that law enforcement agents have been directed to conceal how such investigations truly begin - not only from defense lawyers but also sometimes from prosecutors and judges.

The undated documents show that federal agents are trained to "recreate" the investigative trail to effectively cover up where the information originated, a practice that some experts say violates a defendant's Constitutional right to a fair trial. If defendants don't know how an investigation began, they cannot know to ask to review potential sources of exculpatory evidence - information that could reveal entrapment, mistakes or biased witnesses.

Justice schmustice, right?

[Fisherking]

from your link:





One current federal prosecutor learned how agents were using SOD tips after a drug agent misled him, the prosecutor told Reuters. In a Florida drug case he was handling, the prosecutor said, a DEA agent told him the investigation of a U.S. citizen began with a tip from an informant. When the prosecutor pressed for more information, he said, a DEA supervisor intervened and revealed that the tip had actually come through the SOD and from an NSA intercept.

But they don't listen to the call, right? Right, and SFTW is the tooth fairy! And GC is actually head of the RNC. Any more lies from these people?

[Xiahou]

Not to be outdone, the FBI wants in on the action too...

The U.S. government is quietly pressuring telecommunications providers to install eavesdropping technology deep inside companies' internal networks to facilitate surveillance efforts.

FBI officials have been sparring with carriers, a process that has on occasion included threats of contempt of court, in a bid to deploy government-provided software capable of intercepting and analyzing entire communications streams. The FBI's legal position during these discussions is that the software's real-time interception of metadata is authorized under the Patriot Act.

Attempts by the FBI to install what it internally refers to as "port reader" software, which have not been previously disclosed, were described to CNET in interviews over the last few weeks. One former government official said the software used to be known internally as the "harvesting program."

Carriers are "extra-cautious" and are resisting installation of the FBI's port reader software, an industry participant in the discussions said, in part because of the privacy and security risks of unknown surveillance technology operating on an sensitive internal network.

It's "an interception device by definition," said the industry participant, who spoke on condition of anonymity because court proceedings are sealed. "If magistrates knew more, they would approve less." It's unclear whether any carriers have installed port readers, and at least one is actively opposing the installation.

Someone pass me a tinfoil hat please....

[Husar]

Might be time to get rid of my smart phone and go back to a dumb one.

That's not going to stop anything. Doesn't really matter whether you say it, SMS it or write it publicly on Facebook. If they capture all of it, then they get your message anyway.

What really surprises me is that some of you people are against it. Given that this is legal due to the patriot act, you don't sound very patriotic. Why do you hate freedom and aid terrorists?

[rvg]

That's not going to stop anything. Doesn't really matter whether you say it, SMS it or write it publicly on Facebook. If they capture all of it, then they get your message anyway.

What really surprises me is that some of you people are against it. Given that this is legal due to the patriot act, you don't sound very patriotic. Why do you hate freedom and aid terrorists?

There's only one thing left to do: Each and every one of us has to send out at least one terrorist phonecall/SMS per day. Maybe mention to close family members something about blowing up a school or something along those lines. If the entire population gets flagged and has to be monitored, the whole surveillance system will implode.

[rvg]

Why worry? If needed, the system can be easily overwhelmed with false positives and become totally useless. On that note, is my shipment of TNT ready yet?

[Fisherking]

Oh yes, by all means!

But remember the kid in Texas. It was an obvious joke but they locked him up and through away the key.

Making jokes or trying to overwhelm the system will get you in a lot of trouble. These people make the Stasi look like the good guys.

[TheLastDays]

These people make the Stasi look like the good guys.

Oh some of them weren't that bad. I used to go fishing with that one guy...

Anyway I mean I don't plan to do anything illegal that I'd have to hide and still I don't think this is right. Wanting my privacy doesn't have anything to do with being a terrorist.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Hooray, add another apathetic cog in the machine.

[Fisherking]

No, the answer is not to give up. It doesn’t matter that you are tying to have a low profile either, or have no bad intent.

You are missing what is happening!


In your neighborhood there is a dangerous paranoid. He thinks everyone is out to get him and that everyone is a terrorist. He thinks it is his job to eliminate all those terrorists to save the world. This makes everyone a target. Any tiny innocent thing can set this guy off.

But you can’t call the police because they believe him.

That Him, just happens to be the Federal Government and all of its agencies.

You are all, defacto bad people!

The Nut Job has to be stopped and put some place where they won’t hurt anyone. But it is not going to be easy!

[rvg]

Oh yes, by all means! But remember the kid in Texas. It was an obvious joke but they locked him up and through away the key.

That's because it was just him. Add a million more and the system becomes useless.

[Strike For The South]

5 years ago the same people bemoaning the government now were actively cheering it on and throwing out the traitor line at any opportunity. I feel less than nothing for you people.

This is what the nation state does, in fact if the United States wasn't doing this I would think the bureaucrats are getting lazy. The correct way to change this is to organize, and elect representatives whom will change the law and afford the same protections to phone and e-traffic that the post gets (which was a big battle in its day) This is nothing new, correspondence has always been a privacy vs security battle.

The real "Orwellian" thing here is this melodrama on the internet. People confirm their biases, bitch, throw around words like stasi and bemoan the state of things to make themselves feel important. You know what's important? Voting, excersising your rights as a citizen.

I'm just waiting for some obese, mouth breathing, tea party ass to pump a postal worker full of lead because he's a government employee. There is nothing worse in this life than people with short memories.

[Noncommunist]

That's because it was just him. Add a million more and the system becomes useless.

But for that to work, everyone would need to be confident that everyone else is doing it. Otherwise, many would be less willing to stick their neck out for fear that others wouldn't and only the brave idiots get in trouble. Not quite prisoners dilemma but stag hunt where free riding doesn't really offer much of an advantage but confidence is still needed for everyone to get on board.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stag_hunt

[Fisherking]

Since you seem to be talking about me, your memory is quite screwed up if you think I took the government side on these issues, ever. I said the patriot act was a mistake when they did it, as was homeland security. Look at the other stuff coming out about DEA and FBI phone surveillance.

Yes we need to get rid of the people in there and their parties to go with them! The only difference between the two is the brand of lies they tell.

Come back when you are sober.

[rvg]

But for that to work, everyone would need to be confident that everyone else is doing it. Otherwise, many would be less willing to stick their neck out for fear that others wouldn't and only the brave idiots get in trouble. Not quite prisoners dilemma but stag hunt where free riding doesn't really offer much of an advantage but confidence is still needed for everyone to get on board.

Not necessary. There are plenty of ways to word the inquiries so that they would both flag the system and yet firmly remain under the 1st amendment's protection.

[Kadagar_AV]

Uh... Sorry to say so, but wasn't this known in the 90's? The whole Echelon thingy...

It's 2013 now, no one has stopped them, and of course they have refined the technology used.

I think the lack of moral uproar is due to everyone knowing USA is ****** up. It's not new, nor is it news.

*and some people wonder why I paint USA as the devil*

[Fisherking]

Not necessary. There are plenty of ways to word the inquiries so that they would both flag the system and yet firmly remain under the 1st amendment's protection.

Unless http://www.aclu.org/technology-and-l...tion-free-zone

http://www.aclu.org/know-your-rights...-free-zone-map

Your in Michigan, right? Guess what…

[rvg]

Unless http://www.aclu.org/technology-and-l...tion-free-zone

http://www.aclu.org/know-your-rights...-free-zone-map

Your in Michigan, right? Guess what…

How does this apply to the 1st amendment? Government stupidity with regards to hunting the illegals is a whole different beast.

[Xiahou]

I'm just waiting for some obese, mouth breathing, tea party ass to pump a postal worker full of lead because he's a government employee. There is nothing worse in this life than people with short memories.

Yeah, because there's a lot of evidence for the violent tendencies of tea partiers. If only they could be more like those nice OWS guys....

By the way, how are things in fantasy land?

You know what's important? Voting, excersising your rights as a citizen.

You think it would have been any different under President Romney?

[TheLastDays]

You think it would have been any different under President Romney?

Mitt Romney oder ohne?

Different, maybe but that doesn't necessarily mean better...

[Montmorency]

The state can do whatever surveillance stuff they want, as long as they get the rent-seeking monkey(s) off their back.

[Papewaio]

Just think of all your electronic communication as postcards from now on. Able to be viewed by any agency government or company who carry it between transmission and receiver.

=][=

I don't know how they flag meta data. It might be key words it might be deeper ie can parse sentences.

But if I was going to trip wires I'd use day glo paint and no threats.

Subject: Tin Hats, Terrorism, Al Qaeda and Government Surveillance
Contents:

I don't like:
Terrorists
Al Qaeda
Lack of privacy
People cutting in line
Wars against nominative statements
Bin Laden, Bin Full or Bin Juice and rubbish night is a couple of days away

I like:
Turkish Kebabs
Lebanese charcoal chicken
Egyptian Pyramids
The Afghan - Aussie Train
Pakistan cricket team
Tunisian Twitter