Sunny Gib

[InsaneApache]

Camaroon is sending in the Navy. What they do when they get there is another matter. They'll probably just sit in port watching the Guardia shooting at British jet skiers and fishermen. I wonder what would happen if they took some pot shots back at them...

Seriously, this is getting silly now.

[Fisherking]

You could have provided a link, http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-23627655

So people know what you are on about.

If Spain has a claim on Gibraltar then Germany and Austria have claims to most of the rest of Europe. Then Turkey would want to lay claim to most of the Mid East. This is dumb.

[Fragony]

Who needs that rock, silly indeed. But anything that hurts the EU I cheer for, the more conflict over silly things the better

[Papewaio]

Ah fascism. When you can't manage an economy create a distraction.

[Rhyfelwyr]

What is going on these days between the likes of the Falklands and Gibraltar?

I think the economic crisis must have something to do with it - when you can't get legitimacy by providing a decent quality of life, some good old-fashioned jingoism gets the people behind you.

[rvg]

Spaniards clamor to get Gibraltar, but would they give Ceuta to the Moroccans? No? Oh sorry then, no Gibraltar.

[Fisherking]

Gibraltar has said if the UK doesn’t want them then make them independent, they no way want to be part of Spain.

If Spain wants them they need to invade. You know how well that will go over.

[HoreTore]

Does Spain still have a core on Gibraltar? If so, at least the CB is free.

Same culture group, so the core is never lost.

[InsaneApache]

The state that our armed forces are in, particularly the navy, I think we'd probably lose.

http://www.globalfirepower.com/count...pare+Countries

Just so you know, Camoron has sent an aircraft carrier. The downside is, it has no aircraft on it. The up side is, that we sold them.

To the Spanish.

You couldn't make it up.

[HopAlongBunny]

It sounds to me like Gibraltar does not wish to be treated as mere chattel: very disturbing...

[Greyblades]

The state that our armed forces are in, particularly the navy, I think we'd probably lose.

http://www.globalfirepower.com/count...pare+Countries

Doesnt seem so bad, we outdo them in pretty much everything.

[caravel]

The state that our armed forces are in, particularly the navy, I think we'd probably lose.

http://www.globalfirepower.com/count...pare+Countries

Just so you know, Camoron has sent an aircraft carrier. The downside is, it has no aircraft on it. The up side is, that we sold them.

To the Spanish.

You couldn't make it up.

Stop moaning and remember that "we're all in this together"...

Or as it's more commonly referred to "well that's another fine mess..."

[Husar]

What's a Gibraltar and what kind of animals do you sacrifice on one?

Also the whole Spain vs. UK in a war scenario is so bad, it can only come from the UK side...

Don't forget that Germany and France would be with Spain since Spain would be finally bankrupted during such a war and we'd want to save our investments...

I wouldn't mind watching the FFL storm Buckingham Palace on TV though.

[Papewaio]

How did the last two attempts go?

[Greyblades]

What's a Gibraltar and what kind of animals do you sacrifice on one?

Also the whole Spain vs. UK in a war scenario is so bad, it can only come from the UK side...

Don't forget that Germany and France would be with Spain since Spain would be finally bankrupted during such a war and we'd want to save our investments...

I wouldn't mind watching the FFL storm Buckingham Palace on TV though.

You'd think that they'd be better off telling the Spanish to stop picking fights they can't win.

Thos will end the same way the latest Falkland issue ended, a lot of hot air and both populations losing interest.

[Husar]

How did the last two attempts go?

Last two attempts at what?
The French alredy conquered Britain once but it didn't work so well the other way around.

[Fisherking]

Try again. Normans didn’t think of themselves as French and the French didn’t think of them as French until they discovered Nationalism.

[Greyblades]

Last two attempts at what?
The French alredy conquered Britain once but it didn't work so well the other way around.

When England invaded France we took over half the country and France took 100 years to shift. When France invaded england their invading army took over all the country, declared themselves English then proceeded to tell the French king to jump off a bridge. I think that counts as a draw really.

[Husar]

Why try again? It may not even be what Pape was trying to say. I merely said the island isn't really invulnerable despite what the natives like to think.

[Greyblades]

The island is formidable, it's people are even more so, when combined in one purpose we are indomitable. It doesnt really mean much here though, Gibraltar is not British mainland.

This is really not going anywhere, both of our nations cannot afford a war with each other and the rest of nato arent going to just let us have it out. This is a game of political dick swinging that wont go anywhere, mainly because if it does the instigator will be ganged up on anyway.

[Fisherking]

I think the Dutch conquest is a better example, the story about him being invited was fabricated after the fact. All he had to do was hold Parliament at sword point for a while and they caved in.

But they remade the facts of that invasion to suit their ideals and ideas of invulnerability.

The Spanish have backed off now after throwing a tantrum over a reef and one boats fishing rights.

Not only does Gibraltar not want to be Spanish but the Spanish who work there don’t want it to be either. Then their economy would be just as bad as it is on the other side of the border.

[Pannonian]

How did the last two attempts go?

The British stomped the FFL the last time there was a fight.

[Brenus]

“When England invaded France we took over half the country and France took 100 years to shift”: England never invaded France. The King of England was French. Just read a book of History about Feudalism and the Duke of Normandy being the King of England, etc. I am too tired to do a long paragraph, sorry.

“Normans didn’t think of themselves as French” Oh? The Duke of Normandy didn’t have the duty of Homage to the King of France? Rollon, after de defeat of the Vikings in front of Chartres, signed the Treaty of St Clair sur Epte with the King of France Charles III le Simple and accept to be the Vassal of the King of France. William Long Sword, his son, will carry on.
So, they adopt French as language, adapt the Religion of France, were within the political system of France (in fact they were French long before the part where I born was French), but, hey, they were not French.

“If Spain has a claim on Gibraltar then Germany and Austria have claims to most of the rest of Europe. Then Turkey would want to lay claim to most of the Mid East. This is dumb.” What? Germany didn’t exist when the English took Gibraltar to the Spanish!

[Greyblades]

“When England invaded France we took over half the country and France took 100 years to shift”: England never invaded France. The King of England was French. Just read a book of History about Feudalism and the Duke of Normandy being the King of England, etc. I am too tired to do a long paragraph, sorry.

I know, you silly person, I am fully aware of england's history, I also know that England gained posession of large parts of france several times through conquest and diplomacy, and we were kicked out of all of france (save calais) after 100 years of on and off war. I think you have a problem when even I think you should lighten up.

What? Germany didn’t exist when the English took Gibraltar to the Spanis

It's equivelance, if Britain should hand over Gibraltar its setting up a rather bad precident that leads to thoughts like giving land over to the former owners, If this goes through the germans could say "While we're turning back historical land ownership, regardless of the occupant's wishes, we think that France should hand over Alsace-Lorraine to the fatherland, previous agreements be damned, and they should be happy about doing so." Or the turks could say "the balklands should go back to being part of our nation because it used to be ours."

[Pannonian]

It's equivelance, if Britain should hand over Gibraltar its setting up a rather bad precident that leads to thoughts like giving land over to the former owners, If this goes through the germans could say "While we're turning back historical land ownership, regardless of the occupant's wishes, we think that France should hand over Alsace-Lorraine to the fatherland, previous agreements be damned, and they should be happy about doing so." Or the turks could say "the balklands should go back to being part of our nation because it used to be ours."

Legal and geographical arguments lead to all kinds of complications and hypocrisies as as the claiming state demands that the argument applies in one situation but not another. The most consistent and least hypocritical argument is self-determination, which AFAIK is one of the founding principles of the UN. That argument is pretty clearcut in the cases of Gibraltar and the Falklands, with 99% in favour of the status quo.

[Papewaio]

Last two attempts were the World Wars.

To convince EU mainland to side with Spain vs UK would probably end with the invaders capitals as glass craters.

Why?

First you would have to convince all EU nations that breaking treaties for land grabs was legitimate.

Spain ceded Gibralter as part of a treaty more than ninty nine years ago. Therefore it's UKs

Second all EU nations would have to ignore the right to self determination. I'm sure he former eastern bloc nations such as Poland would love that idea.

France would have to be convinced that some of its border areas with Spain weren't up for grabs next, likewise Netherlands would have to be convinced in the the new militant order it wouldn't be subordinated to Spain.

Greece would also have to agree with this idea.

So now you have a new EU mainland all united to war on UK and even stating they will storm Buckingham Palace.

I'm sure Russia would be happy to wait this out and watch as UK gets taken out and so would the USA. Except neither would want a fully militarized, veteran EU that is willing to invade its own states. US would not want to give up its lone superpower status to such a state. Russia would be nervous that it would be carved up next.

And why wouldn't it think so? If individual EU nations can be invaded because of broken treaties?

China probably wouldn't want to have a militant EU getting in the way of its rise. China would not want to support one of its competitors (German) over its main markets US and UK. It would happily supply arms in a leand lease to maintain the status quo. Australia would be supplying the raw materials to China and backing up its long term allies of US and UK.

US would be very worried about the US warheads in EU going to a facist EU state and would have to quickly mobilize. Hasty decisions would lead to hasty consequences. US and Russia's best options to prevent a long war ending in nuclear war would be to have a quick series of nuclear strikes. The EU leading capitals would be no more.

So to stop such a hasty action. The EU mainland would have to give some mighty concessions to US, Russia and China. Not to mention what India may want.

Of course this all unravels before a worthy alliance forms in the EU, the moment France says get stuffed. Than you have all permanent UN Security Council members telling the wannabe invaders to stand down.

I don't see Germany has the necessary weapons: historical behaviour in creating a united Europe unless its against Germany, nor does it have the diplomatic nuance to pull this off. First to get Greece to agree they would have to forget all debts with them... Probably costing more than the Spanish ones.

So even if they pulled off the alliance it would cost them. Even if they declared war on UK it would trigger an unholy alliance of the remaining nuclear armed security council who would be very nervous.

[HoreTore]

Oh look, two conservative leaders unable to resolve anything without turning it into a silly penis-competition with the armed forces.

What a shocker!

Is the right capable of handling anything like civilized and intelligent beings, or is it simply in their nature to waste everyones time on silly things like this?

[rvg]

The rock will stay British. Any discussion over its fate is an utter waste of time. Any saber rattling over it is an exercise in futility.

[Brenus]

“I also know that England gained posession of large parts of france several times through conquest and diplomacy”: It wasn’t THE problem: The problem was the Duke of Normandy was the King of England… Then, when Philipp the Fair’s sons, all Kings of France, died, what left was his Daughter, Isabelle, married to the English King. She claimed the throne on behalf of her son. It was mainly a domestic dispute (her uncle claimed that the throne couldn’t go through females, and the war started –plus few back-stabs and feuds)…

“If this goes through the germans could say "While we're turning back historical land ownership, regardless of the occupant's wishes, we think that France should hand over Alsace-Lorraine to the fatherland” Yes, that would be tricky if only Germany would have existed in the XVII century… But I understand what if the French asked the Anglo-Normande Islands…

“First you would have to convince all EU nations that breaking treaties for land grabs was legitimate.” This has been done before: Remember Kosovo?

“Second all EU nations would have to ignore the right to self determination” This has been done before: Bosnia and Croatia where Serbs Minorities clearly didn’t want to be part of the newly formed States.

“The EU leading capitals would be no more.” So the Russian and US one, I am afraid. France has an INDEPENDENT Nuclear Strike Capacity. So you can forget Moscow and Washington doing something (in case of Fascist United Europe). I can eve predict that USA will prevent UK to use their missiles…

Ok, have to go to work…

[Papewaio]

Of course I know France like most of the permanent security council members have nuclear weapons.

Very hard to forget when it uses state sponsored terrorism to stop peaceful protests.