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Thread: New Video Shows Crippling Bugs That Have Plagued the Series Removed!

  1. #1
    In the shadows... Member Vuk's Avatar
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    Default New Video Shows Crippling Bugs That Have Plagued the Series Removed!

    And if you believe that, I got a bridge to sell you. Seriously though, how many would have preferred that video to "New Video Showing Off New Unit Camera!"? Pardon the sarcasm CA, but maybe you could answer me a question. Why, 8 games into the series, have you not addressed a number of core bugs that appear in every game you put out yet? Heck, you haven't even tried. The redundant orders bug, the bugs with path-finding in cities, the weapon switching bugs, the skirmishing not working bugs, the cavalry circling around a unit to attack it from the front when you have positioned them on the flank bug, etc, etc.
    These are critically important bugs, and they have been here at least since RTW. TW: RII will be the fifth game since them and they still have not been fixed! (there hasn't even been any noticeable improvement)
    Pardon my being blunt, but I am exasperated and losing faith. I have bought every game you have ever put out (as well as all your expansion and all or most of your rip-off DLC), but it has gotten to the point where I am having trouble finding reasons to do that. Gosh, if you fixed the darn bugs and released the bug fix as a DLC pack I would buy it!
    Some of those bugs wouldn't be that difficult to address. If you spent less time poorly implementing crap like your baggage train system, you would have found plenty of time to squash those bugs. Every game you are putting out is the same as the one before it, but with better visuals and a few cheap gimmicks tacked on. How about you actually improve that core darned game before moving on to the gimmicks and new game-play devices? You have had 5 chances to do it and failed every time! WTH gives?

    *Rant Over*
    I would appreciate it CA if you could have one of your guys answer this question for the community, because I know that I am not by any means the only one who feels this way.
    Hammer, anvil, forge and fire, chase away The Hoofed Liar. Roof and doorway, block and beam, chase The Trickster from our dreams.
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  2. #2

    Default Re: New Video Shows Crippling Bugs That Have Plagued the Series Removed!

    I remember hearing something about improved pathfinding in cities to cope with their new Bigger and Better urban battles (which I don't see the point of). I've given up on skirmish and accepted that it will always be useless.

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    Dux Nova Scotia Member lars573's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Video Shows Crippling Bugs That Have Plagued the Series Removed!

    Once again 8 games into the series and some people can't get it through their thick skulls that something working in a way I don't like IS NOT A BUG. A bug is something that was unintended and the result of errors in the games coding. You'd think that after 5 games you'd get that what your complaining about is no error, it's intentional.
    If you havin' skyrim problems I feel bad for you son.. I dodged 99 arrows but my knee took one.

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    Strategist and Storyteller Member Myth's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Video Shows Crippling Bugs That Have Plagued the Series Removed!

    Hey, I'm happy that the cavalry disengage from melee thing was fixed as that was by far the most annoying for me.

    Skirmishing works just fine for a feature that is supposed to be inferior to actual micromanagement of the ranged units. You don't have any evidence of how weapon switching and pike formations work so I don't even know why are you so mad.

    PS. TDS was complete fail compared to TDP and TMA, how come you have Deadly Shadows models and quotes in your signature?
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    These are: (1) The Moral Law; (2) Heaven; (3) Earth;
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    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Video Shows Crippling Bugs That Have Plagued the Series Removed!

    Quote Originally Posted by quadalpha View Post
    I remember hearing something about improved pathfinding in cities
    Yep, they've specifically mentioned this in various interviews.
    "Those are my principles, and if you don't like them ... well, I have others." — Groucho Marx

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    In the shadows... Member Vuk's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Video Shows Crippling Bugs That Have Plagued the Series Removed!

    Quote Originally Posted by lars573 View Post
    Once again 8 games into the series and some people can't get it through their thick skulls that something working in a way I don't like IS NOT A BUG. A bug is something that was unintended and the result of errors in the games coding. You'd think that after 5 games you'd get that what your complaining about is no error, it's intentional.
    Intended? Why would they intend your cavalry (other units too, but it is the worst when they do it) to circle around to the front and attack when you have positioned them on the flank? Why is it that that does not always happen, but only some times randomly? They intended to have your units randomly disobey your attack orders and go out of their way to attack an enemy unit's front? Really? Sorry mate, but that sounds like tosh to me. Did they also intend for your pike men to randomly, rapidly switch back and forth between pikes and swords after you tell them to attack in a phalanx formation or pike-wall? For skirmishers to randomly switch back and forth from swords to javelin when in throwing range of an enemy and only finally wind back to throw their javelin when the enemy is almost on them? Did they intend for units (esp skirmishers) to pull 90% of their men back and leave 10% behind to draw the entire unit into combat after being given a retreat order manually or being placed in skirmish mode? Did they intend your units when told to attack an enemy around a corner in a city to try to draw a diagonal through the building and have most of your men get caught up on the corner so that they drip-feed themselves to the enemy one at a time? Is that also their intention then? How about on a battlefield when a tree or rock is in the way, and rather than circling around it or splitting up around it half your unit gets caught on it? In real life unit commanders or individual men figure out how best to micromanage their movements. Their general doesn't have to hold every individual man's hand and teach him how to move! Don't tell me that is intentional, and quit posting your condescending tosh in my thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Myth View Post
    Hey, I'm happy that the cavalry disengage from melee thing was fixed as that was by far the most annoying for me.

    Skirmishing works just fine for a feature that is supposed to be inferior to actual micromanagement of the ranged units. You don't have any evidence of how weapon switching and pike formations work so I don't even know why are you so mad.

    PS. TDS was complete fail compared to TDP and TMA, how come you have Deadly Shadows models and quotes in your signature?
    I was very happy as well to find out that they made cavalry be able to disengage, but that was one major problem out of many across 8 games. And you are wrong about skirmishing. They sometimes do the same thing even when you give the order manually. And why would they bother implementing a deliberately broken feature to increase micromanagement anyway?

    And you are wrong about my signature. The artwork and the quotes are from the first two games. None of it is from TDP.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemur View Post
    Yep, they've specifically mentioned this in various interviews.
    Yeah, they've mentioned it, but their gameplay videos do not confirm what they say. If it is better, it is not better by a lot. Every game that comes out they tell us that they are gonna be fixing all these bugs, but they never do.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV View Post
    In a racial conflict I'd have no problem popping off some negroes.

  7. #7
    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Video Shows Crippling Bugs That Have Plagued the Series Removed!

    Quote Originally Posted by Vuk View Post
    gameplay videos do not confirm what they say [improvements in city map pathfinding].
    Have we seen a video yet that includes city streets & navigation? (I confess I have not watched every single video that has come out.)

    -edit-

    Also, who am I kidding? The only TW game I ever successfully resisted at launch was Napoleon.

    Whatever does or doesn't get fixed/improved:

    Last edited by Lemur; 08-12-2013 at 16:17.
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    In the shadows... Member Vuk's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Video Shows Crippling Bugs That Have Plagued the Series Removed!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemur View Post
    Have we seen a video yet that includes city streets & navigation? (I confess I have not watched every single video that has come out.)
    We have. The "Total War_ Rome II - Interview with Pawel Wojs" for instance. Watch 5:13-5:25 for an excellent example of the pointless and avoidable bottlenecks I was talking about. The cavalry all try to cut a diagonal through the building instead of wheeling their formation more and the second unit ends up drip feeding into the enemies.
    Hammer, anvil, forge and fire, chase away The Hoofed Liar. Roof and doorway, block and beam, chase The Trickster from our dreams.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV View Post
    In a racial conflict I'd have no problem popping off some negroes.

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    In the shadows... Member Vuk's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Video Shows Crippling Bugs That Have Plagued the Series Removed!

    Hammer, anvil, forge and fire, chase away The Hoofed Liar. Roof and doorway, block and beam, chase The Trickster from our dreams.
    Vigilance is our shield, that protects us from our squalid past. Knowledge is our weapon, with which we carve a path to an enlightened future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV View Post
    In a racial conflict I'd have no problem popping off some negroes.

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    Now sporting a classic avatar! Member fallen851's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Video Shows Crippling Bugs That Have Plagued the Series Removed!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemur View Post
    Have we seen a video yet that includes city streets & navigation? (I confess I have not watched every single video that has come out.)

    -edit-

    Also, who am I kidding? The only TW game I ever successfully resisted at launch was Napoleon.

    Whatever does or doesn't get fixed/improved:

    Well, the only Total War game I've ever bought was Rome (will probably buy MTW II when EB II gets completely finished). So they can work for my dollars. And I'd like to buy Rome II if it an improvement. Doesn't seem like one though.
    "It's true that when it's looked at isolated, Rome II is a good game... but every time I sit down to play it, every battle, through every turn, I see how Rome I was better. Not unanimously, but ultimately." - Dr. Sane

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    In the shadows... Member Vuk's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Video Shows Crippling Bugs That Have Plagued the Series Removed!

    I usually wait till I can snag their games for $10-15 if they do not stand out to me as great games. I did this with Shogun 2 for instance because I am not a fan of the setting, with MIITW because I was broke, and with Napoleon because it seemed like a rip-off. I am gonna do the same with RII-TW because I am really hard on money and because I am not at all impressed with what I see. Roma Surrectum II is still the greatest Total War game made IMHO (yes, I now it is a mod and not technically a full game). That is where I get my RTW fix. Anyway, in some ways its graphics look much better than TW:RII.
    Hammer, anvil, forge and fire, chase away The Hoofed Liar. Roof and doorway, block and beam, chase The Trickster from our dreams.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV View Post
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    Senior Member Senior Member Barkhorn1x's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Video Shows Crippling Bugs That Have Plagued the Series Removed!

    Quote Originally Posted by Vuk View Post
    I see what you mean. But it has been far worse; ETW for instance.
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    Senior Member Senior Member ReluctantSamurai's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Video Shows Crippling Bugs That Have Plagued the Series Removed!

    Why is it that that does not always happen, but only some times randomly? They intended to have your units randomly disobey your attack orders and go out of their way to attack an enemy unit's front? Really? Sorry mate, but that sounds like tosh to me.
    Sounds like real-life battle situations to me. When do a generals troops ever follow orders exactly? A little randomness on the battlefield makes things more interesting, IMHO.

    Are there still problems with things like pathfinding, etc, etc, etc....of course. TW has come a loooong way from the truly bugged times of ETW and my hat is off to the devs for making a concerted effort to get back on track since Shogun 2.

    My advice? If you don't like what CA is doing, don't buy their games.
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  14. #14

    Default Re: New Video Shows Crippling Bugs That Have Plagued the Series Removed!

    Quote Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai View Post
    Sounds like real-life battle situations to me. When do a generals troops ever follow orders exactly? A little randomness on the battlefield makes things more interesting, IMHO.
    Odd argument. Could be applied to Windows crashing ('Working as designed! When does everything in life ever happen the way you want it to?').

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    In the shadows... Member Vuk's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Video Shows Crippling Bugs That Have Plagued the Series Removed!

    Quote Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai View Post
    Sounds like real-life battle situations to me. When do a generals troops ever follow orders exactly? A little randomness on the battlefield makes things more interesting, IMHO.

    Are there still problems with things like pathfinding, etc, etc, etc....of course. TW has come a loooong way from the truly bugged times of ETW and my hat is off to the devs for making a concerted effort to get back on track since Shogun 2.

    My advice? If you don't like what CA is doing, don't buy their games.
    No, this is not realistic. Sure, people disobey orders some times, but why would men when put in a tactically advantageous position and often under enemy fire take a bunch of time to place themselves in a tactically disadvantageous situation before charging? I really doubt something like that has every happened in the history of warfare. Sure troops disobey sometimes, but I doubt they would ever disobey like this.
    Also, it happens far too often even if it was intended. When you play with 90+% cavalry armies, it can be a game breaker.
    I'm happy they improved as well, but as I said, these bugs have existed long before ETW and can be devastating to a player's gameplay experience. It is not being ungrateful to wonder why they have not been dealt with all this time.

    Quote Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai View Post
    My advice? If you don't like what CA is doing, don't buy their games.
    No offense, but this is ridiculous. If someone puts out the best car in the world, but they keep repeating mistakes, should you just stop buying their cars? No, you should make a stink to try to get them fixed.
    TW is the best strategy game out there - hands down, no competition. If I were to stop buying CA's games I would have to give up one of my favorite gaming genres. It is not that simple.
    Like I said, I'll buy it, but only when I can get it for ~$10.
    There is nothing wrong with reaching out to the developers and making your concerns known RS. You act like it is somehow unreasonable for me to be upset about this, but it is not. All I want is CA to respond to my concerns. Even if they don't think it is worth their time, I would at least prefer a "Sod-off, we don't care."
    Ignoring the community sends the worst possible message.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV View Post
    In a racial conflict I'd have no problem popping off some negroes.

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    Senior Member Senior Member ReluctantSamurai's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Video Shows Crippling Bugs That Have Plagued the Series Removed!

    I really doubt something like that has every happened in the history of warfare.
    Actually, it has. There are numerous examples I can think of (others can chime in with their favorite), but the one era I am most familiar with (WWII) has a classic example....the opening of Operation Barbarossa.

    No offense, but this is ridiculous. If someone puts out the best car in the world, but they keep repeating mistakes, should you just stop buying their cars? No, you should make a stink to try to get them fixed.
    No, it's not. If said car-maker doesn't put out a car to your satisfaction, even after repeated pleas, the smart buyer buys something else

    Ignoring the community sends the worst possible message
    While I am no expert on CA consumer relations, my own personal experience, and from what I can read says that they haven't
    Last edited by ReluctantSamurai; 08-13-2013 at 00:43.
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    In the shadows... Member Vuk's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Video Shows Crippling Bugs That Have Plagued the Series Removed!

    Quote Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai View Post
    Actually, it has. There are numerous examples I can think of (others can chime in with their favorite), but the one era I am most familiar with (WWII) has a classic example....the opening of Operation Barbarossa.
    On a tactical level troops were positioned on their enemy's flank and were told to charge, and instead circled to the front and charged? You'll have to source that for me, because I am not buying that.

    Quote Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai View Post
    No, it's not. If said car-maker doesn't put out a car to your satisfaction, even after repeated pleas, the smart buyer buys something else
    Even if all the other cars are less to your satisfaction? Should you just walk instead maybe?


    Quote Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai View Post
    While I am no expert on CA consumer relations, my own personal experience, and from what I can read says that they haven't
    No, they have been good with listen to the fans on some things, I'll give them credit there. On other things though, they have been really bad.
    Hammer, anvil, forge and fire, chase away The Hoofed Liar. Roof and doorway, block and beam, chase The Trickster from our dreams.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV View Post
    In a racial conflict I'd have no problem popping off some negroes.

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    Senior Member Senior Member ReluctantSamurai's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Video Shows Crippling Bugs That Have Plagued the Series Removed!

    You'll have to source that for me, because I am not buying that
    I am not going to get into a pissing contest over sources, etc. Military history is rife with examples of commanders disobeying direct orders; of units leaving superior positions for what ever the reason; of units not being able to carry out the orders they were given because they were incapable of doing so (lack of readiness, lack of experience, lack of leadership, etc)...and so on. Feel free to browse the internet at your leisure to find such instances. Whether intended or not, units in RTW that do not do exactly what you direct them to do is not unlike real battle situations. I get just as frustrated as you when directing a battle where my units behave in a wayward fashion. But I take it as a challenge. So in the words of Gunny Highway : "Improvise...Adapt".

    Even if all the other cars are less to your satisfaction?
    Obviously, the RTW series has enough going for it to keep you coming back for more despite your distaste for its' "bugs".
    High Plains Drifter

  19. #19

    Default Re: New Video Shows Crippling Bugs That Have Plagued the Series Removed!

    Quote Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai View Post
    I am not going to get into a pissing contest over sources, etc. Military history is rife with examples of commanders disobeying direct orders; of units leaving superior positions for what ever the reason; of units not being able to carry out the orders they were given because they were incapable of doing so (lack of readiness, lack of experience, lack of leadership, etc)...and so on. Feel free to browse the internet at your leisure to find such instances. Whether intended or not, units in RTW that do not do exactly what you direct them to do is not unlike real battle situations. I get just as frustrated as you when directing a battle where my units behave in a wayward fashion. But I take it as a challenge. So in the words of Gunny Highway : "Improvise...Adapt".
    This is a bit silly. The point is not that CA intended to simulate real-world errors (unless you are asserting this?) but that a feature that clearly should work one way is dysfunctional. There are games that do simulate chain of command and screw-ups along the way, but TW is not one of them.

  20. #20

    Default Re: New Video Shows Crippling Bugs That Have Plagued the Series Removed!

    The flanking cavalry going around the unit to attack it from the front really ought to be a bug mainly because no disobedient Hipparch would do that, unlike an AI that tries to properly engage another unit. What these sorts of people do is:
    Attack(and give up an advantageos or concealed position) without orders. This means they just storm ahead and don't do any fancy manoeuvring. While there actually is a trait for that in some TW games, I never actually seen that happen. :(
    Not attack(against the supreme commanders order). easily explained.
    Go rouge(aka following the colonels own agenda) and do unplanned things. No this does not mean that they just do what the commander ordered in a fancy(and stupid)way it means doing something else.
    Desert
    Start recreative activities, like play ball, cards or bake bread.

    But they do not go around a hostile formation to attack it head on. They may attack a tad too late, too early, another unit or not at all or they might just "reveal" their position by general stupid/cockyness, but they don't...

    Also skirmishers in antiquity don't go:" OH NOES they got lame leg Laomedon! we don't leave anyone behind! Let's just stand here and watch how they kill him" This again is OBVIOUSLY an unitAI issue. Because the unit is not the individual soldiers but the whole mob, the unit thinks it's engaged and thus all of them stop to fight(or in case of skirmishers, die).

    I can understand why one would defend the devs and personally I dislike endless complaining. but this obviously isn't a feature, it's a bug.
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  21. #21
    In the shadows... Member Vuk's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Video Shows Crippling Bugs That Have Plagued the Series Removed!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ca Putt View Post
    The flanking cavalry going around the unit to attack it from the front really ought to be a bug mainly because no disobedient Hipparch would do that, unlike an AI that tries to properly engage another unit. What these sorts of people do is:
    Attack(and give up an advantageos or concealed position) without orders. This means they just storm ahead and don't do any fancy manoeuvring. While there actually is a trait for that in some TW games, I never actually seen that happen. :(
    Not attack(against the supreme commanders order). easily explained.
    Go rouge(aka following the colonels own agenda) and do unplanned things. No this does not mean that they just do what the commander ordered in a fancy(and stupid)way it means doing something else.
    Desert
    Start recreative activities, like play ball, cards or bake bread.

    But they do not go around a hostile formation to attack it head on. They may attack a tad too late, too early, another unit or not at all or they might just "reveal" their position by general stupid/cockyness, but they don't...

    Also skirmishers in antiquity don't go:" OH NOES they got lame leg Laomedon! we don't leave anyone behind! Let's just stand here and watch how they kill him" This again is OBVIOUSLY an unitAI issue. Because the unit is not the individual soldiers but the whole mob, the unit thinks it's engaged and thus all of them stop to fight(or in case of skirmishers, die).

    I can understand why one would defend the devs and personally I dislike endless complaining. but this obviously isn't a feature, it's a bug.
    Thank you. Exactly my point.
    As far as defending the devs, do so when appropriate. When someone is raising a legitimate concern and asking the devs to way in, don't tell the person that their concern is illegitimate because you like the devs. :P That is exactly what several people in this thread have done so far.
    Hammer, anvil, forge and fire, chase away The Hoofed Liar. Roof and doorway, block and beam, chase The Trickster from our dreams.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV View Post
    In a racial conflict I'd have no problem popping off some negroes.

  22. #22

    Default Re: New Video Shows Crippling Bugs That Have Plagued the Series Removed!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ca Putt View Post
    Also skirmishers in antiquity don't go:" OH NOES they got lame leg Laomedon! we don't leave anyone behind! Let's just stand here and watch how they kill him" This again is OBVIOUSLY an unitAI issue. Because the unit is not the individual soldiers but the whole mob, the unit thinks it's engaged and thus all of them stop to fight(or in case of skirmishers, die).

    I can understand why one would defend the devs and personally I dislike endless complaining. but this obviously isn't a feature, it's a bug.
    No Peltast Left Behind

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  23. #23

    Default Re: New Video Shows Crippling Bugs That Have Plagued the Series Removed!

    Not trying to be a Debbie downer, but where is this " New Video Shows Crippling Bugs That Have Plagued the Series Removed"....I know this is my first post, but stop complaining about a game that is not even out yet

  24. #24
    In the shadows... Member Vuk's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Video Shows Crippling Bugs That Have Plagued the Series Removed!

    I am not complaining about TW:RII. I am complaining about a bad attitude from the developers when it comes to them prioritizing gimmicks meant to make more money over making a better gameplay experience.
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  25. #25

    Default Re: New Video Shows Crippling Bugs That Have Plagued the Series Removed!

    Ya agree with ya man. I've played almost all the total war games and really hoping with this new large scale budget, that they will create something amazing

  26. #26

    Default Re: New Video Shows Crippling Bugs That Have Plagued the Series Removed!

    I remember the original rome pathfinding... :(

  27. #27
    Provost Senior Member Nelson's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Video Shows Crippling Bugs That Have Plagued the Series Removed!

    Quote Originally Posted by Vuk View Post
    I am not complaining about TW:RII. I am complaining about a bad attitude from the developers when it comes to them prioritizing gimmicks meant to make more money over making a better gameplay experience.
    I am confident that the “gimmicks” to which you refer are in place precisely to enhance the game play experience. Maybe not your or my idea of the best experience, but one calculated to appeal to a wide audience.

    And really, railing against any business for trying to make money serves only to deny CA’s raison d'être. Whatever else CA might do, they MUST earn money.
    Time flies like the wind. Fruit flies like bananas.

  28. #28
    In the shadows... Member Vuk's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Video Shows Crippling Bugs That Have Plagued the Series Removed!

    Quote Originally Posted by Nelson View Post
    I am confident that the “gimmicks” to which you refer are in place precisely to enhance the game play experience. Maybe not your or my idea of the best experience, but one calculated to appeal to a wide audience.

    And really, railing against any business for trying to make money serves only to deny CA’s raison d'être. Whatever else CA might do, they MUST earn money.
    Yes, they must, but the obsessive focus on maximizing short-term profit at the expense of long-term profit is not wise. If they took the time to fix just one of the bugs I mentioned every game since Rome, they would all be gone now, and they would have taking a minimum amount of time away from adding new content and features. In the long-term, having a better (and constantly improving) foundation to build their games on is gonna stop them from getting stale (let's face it, there are only so many eras they can do) and will bring more old fans who have given up on the series back into the fold. It will also help make sure that new gamers who buy their games will continue to buy their games.
    Hammer, anvil, forge and fire, chase away The Hoofed Liar. Roof and doorway, block and beam, chase The Trickster from our dreams.
    Vigilance is our shield, that protects us from our squalid past. Knowledge is our weapon, with which we carve a path to an enlightened future.

    Everything you need to know about Kadagar_AV:
    Quote Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV View Post
    In a racial conflict I'd have no problem popping off some negroes.

  29. #29

    Default Re: New Video Shows Crippling Bugs That Have Plagued the Series Removed!

    It's a perfectly valid criticism to point out that CA might have lost sight of the basics while adding more bells and whistles. It really started happening with RTW's 3d map.

  30. #30
    Senior Member Senior Member ReluctantSamurai's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Video Shows Crippling Bugs That Have Plagued the Series Removed!

    and will bring more old fans who have given up on the series back into the fold. It will also help make sure that new gamers who buy their games will continue to buy their games.
    Judging by pre-sale orders (which some place at 6X that of Shogun II), I'd say that both the former and the latter have already happened

    It's a perfectly valid criticism to point out that CA might have lost sight of the basics while adding more bells and whistles. It really started happening with RTW's 3d map
    Well, you can always fire up a game of the original STW or MTW
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