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Thread: Russian Anti-gay laws and violence, and the Olympic (Winter) Games.

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    Speaker of Truth Senior Member Moros's Avatar
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    Default Russian Anti-gay laws and violence, and the Olympic (Winter) Games.

    It is sadly already a bit old news and I was surprised not to find a topic about this yet. But Russia who legalised LGB relationships in the '90ies has recently scrapped that law and replaced it with, what is called by journalists, draconian measures. Making outing illegal, spreading gay-propaganda illegal (this includes wearing rainbows or holding hands), adoption by same sex parents and by countries that allow same sex adoptions,... Even worse seem to be the hyped violence the LGB community currently suffers by Neo-nazi organistations (http://www.spectrumhr.org/hot-news-1...secutegayteens), who set up dates with gay boys and men that end up in being real torture sessions. Or the mass,raping of Lesbians to "convert them". All with the somewhat, but not really (http://www.spectrumhr.org/hot-news-1...nceagainstgays), secret approval of the government.

    This is the same country where the Olympic (winter) games will be held shortly. In which LGB's are participating and which LGB's will be watching world wide. It reminds me a bit about the human rights debate about China when they held the olympics.

    Some are asking for a boycot. Such as the always eloquent Stephen Fry (http://www.stephenfry.com/2013/08/07...n-and-the-ioc/), Which wouldn't be the only boycot, as some American bars are already scrapping Russian Wodka. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-23506425).

    And while The Olympic committee first guaranteed it would not be a problem during and at the games, the Russian ministers have multiple times confirmed they will enforce the law. The rule for foreigners would be at least 15 days of prison, deportation and banishment from Russia.

    See also:
    http://www.spectrumhr.org/hot-news-1
    http://www.coe.int/t/Commissioner/So...ological_E.pdf (pre change of law)
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-23603870
    http://edition.cnn.com/2013/08/02/op...y-russia-games
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...n_3676311.html
    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-0...a-reports.html
    http://www.lgbtqnation.com/2013/08/russian-sports-minister-says-russia-will-enforce-anti-gay-law-during-olympics/
    http://www.lgbtqnation.com/2013/08/russias-interior-ministry-says-anti-gay-law-will-be-enforced-during-olympics/

    (I know some website may not be seen as being from highest possible picking order, when it comes to journalism. But much of the information reached me by dutch websites, thus I quickly had to find different English sites that contained the information needed)



    So what should the IOC do? What would be the best approach? And are there way or things the EU and US should do to help? I'd gladly hear you opinions as I'm, while shocked and disgusted, not really sure what the best course of action would be.
    Last edited by Moros; 08-15-2013 at 16:11.

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    Upstanding Member rvg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Russian Anti-gay laws and violence, and the Olympic (Winter) Games.

    Quote Originally Posted by Moros View Post
    So what should the IOC do? What would be the best approach? And are there way or things the EU and US should do to help? I'd gladly hear you opinions as I'm, while shocked and disgusted, not really sure what the best course of action would be.
    I don't think the IOC should do anything at all: Russians aren't stupid, they have no interest in sabotaging and de-legitimizing their very own games.
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    Default Re: Russian Anti-gay laws and violence, and the Olympic (Winter) Games.

    The IOC won't do anything on their own, and neither will FIFA for 2018. For the simple reason that both organizations are incredibly corrupt and only care about money. The only way they will take action is if their bottom line is severely endangered.
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    Default Re: Russian Anti-gay laws and violence, and the Olympic (Winter) Games.

    the light-blues, they're worse than the Jews!

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    Master of useless knowledge Senior Member Kitten Shooting Champion, Eskiv Champion Ironside's Avatar
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    Default Re: Russian Anti-gay laws and violence, and the Olympic (Winter) Games.

    Quote Originally Posted by rvg View Post
    I don't think the IOC should do anything at all: Russians aren't stupid, they have no interest in sabotaging and de-legitimizing their very own games.
    So they will only sabotage and de-legitimize their own law? I mean I can totally see a homosexual medal winner openly kiss as a challenge in this case.

    It's already some minor rumbling about this in the WC in Athletics atm.
    We are all aware that the senses can be deceived, the eyes fooled. But how can we be sure our senses are not being deceived at any particular time, or even all the time? Might I just be a brain in a tank somewhere, tricked all my life into believing in the events of this world by some insane computer? And does my life gain or lose meaning based on my reaction to such solipsism?

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    Upstanding Member rvg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Russian Anti-gay laws and violence, and the Olympic (Winter) Games.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironside View Post
    So they will only sabotage and de-legitimize their own law? I mean I can totally see a homosexual medal winner openly kiss as a challenge in this case.

    It's already some minor rumbling about this in the WC in Athletics atm.
    Russia is notorious for selectively applying/enforcing her laws, forgetting about existing laws, inventing laws on the fly, retroactively applying new laws, etc. It's a complete mess, but it allows the Russian state to do whatever it wants, and what it wants in this particular case is success. Both in as a host and as a participant.
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    Default Re: Russian Anti-gay laws and violence, and the Olympic (Winter) Games.

    It's a bully play, and a power play.
    For those with no interest: Not a hill to die on
    For those with an interest: I spent 4 stinkin' years getting ready for this! Do I really wanna...

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    Master of useless knowledge Senior Member Kitten Shooting Champion, Eskiv Champion Ironside's Avatar
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    Default Re: Russian Anti-gay laws and violence, and the Olympic (Winter) Games.

    Quote Originally Posted by rvg View Post
    Russia is notorious for selectively applying/enforcing her laws, forgetting about existing laws, inventing laws on the fly, retroactively applying new laws, etc. It's a complete mess, but it allows the Russian state to do whatever it wants, and what it wants in this particular case is success. Both in as a host and as a participant.
    The law is feeding mostly the same element that wants a Russia looking strong. They certainly won't be happy about it.

    But I might be underestimate how much the Russian population accepts double messages or accepts pragmatism above rethoric.
    We are all aware that the senses can be deceived, the eyes fooled. But how can we be sure our senses are not being deceived at any particular time, or even all the time? Might I just be a brain in a tank somewhere, tricked all my life into believing in the events of this world by some insane computer? And does my life gain or lose meaning based on my reaction to such solipsism?

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    Upstanding Member rvg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Russian Anti-gay laws and violence, and the Olympic (Winter) Games.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironside View Post
    The law is feeding mostly the same element that wants a Russia looking strong. They certainly won't be happy about it.

    But I might be underestimate how much the Russian population accepts double messages or accepts pragmatism above rethoric.
    Putin doesn't give a crap about what the Russian population thinks. This is his Olympics, so it'll go without a hitch. If that means putting an idiotic law on hold, the idiotic law will be put on hold. Not officially of course. Russia may be full of frothing sheeple, but Putin ain't one of those. At this point all he cares about is prestige, his personal prestige. Successful trouble-free Olympics == prestige.
    "And if the people raise a great howl against my barbarity and cruelty, I will answer that war is war and not popularity seeking. If they want peace, they and their relatives must stop the war." - William Tecumseh Sherman

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    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
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    Default Re: Russian Anti-gay laws and violence, and the Olympic (Winter) Games.

    Winter Olympics is dominated by EU particularly Northern Europe.

    Scandinavian countries and Finland are the strongest per head of population.

    So if any of those are serious about equal rights and anti-facist they should boycott the Winter Olympics.
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    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
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    Default Re: Russian Anti-gay laws and violence, and the Olympic (Winter) Games.

    Winter Olympics is dominated by EU particularly Northern Europe.

    Scandinavian countries and Finland are the strongest per head of population.

    So if any of those are serious about equal rights and anti-facist they should boycott the Winter Olympics.
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    Default Re: Russian Anti-gay laws and violence, and the Olympic (Winter) Games.

    Quote Originally Posted by Papewaio View Post
    So if any of those are serious about equal rights and anti-facist they should boycott the Winter Olympics.
    Putin can't lose.
    Boycott confirms Russia as isolated and strengthens Putin's grip
    Trouble-free Olympics burnishes Putins' prestige

    He wins no matter how you slice it. Maybe you could have teams parade with the rainbow flag; Russia has to enforce the law leading to expelling or disqualifying nations, or quietly swallow and ignores the insult.
    The IOC looks like jerks no matter what happens.
    Last edited by HopAlongBunny; 08-16-2013 at 00:12.
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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Russian Anti-gay laws and violence, and the Olympic (Winter) Games.

    I see no reason for a boycot. I am not against gay-rights but that rainbow stuff is extremily annoying. It's not illegal to be gay in Russia, that there are a lot of incidents of gays getting attacked by idiots has nothing to do with the Olympic Games.

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    Ni dieu ni maître! Senior Member a completely inoffensive name's Avatar
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    Default Re: Russian Anti-gay laws and violence, and the Olympic (Winter) Games.

    Russia is already at a demographic disadvantage. Extreme amounts of alcoholism and a declining population does not really bode well for an aspiring global power. If they want to alienate LGBTs and create even more drain on their human resources that's fine.

    Putin is not a dictator of an empire, he is a dictator of a bunch of resource rich land. Where would Russia be if the EU no longer needed its natural gas?
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    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: Russian Anti-gay laws and violence, and the Olympic (Winter) Games.

    I sincerely hope we will see a lot of athletes with rainbow colours somewhere on their gear.

    The Russian attitude towards gays is completely unacceptable and barbaric.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

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    Upstanding Member rvg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Russian Anti-gay laws and violence, and the Olympic (Winter) Games.

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore View Post
    The Russian attitude towards gays is completely unacceptable and barbaric.
    You are mistaking indifference for hostility.
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    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: Russian Anti-gay laws and violence, and the Olympic (Winter) Games.

    Quote Originally Posted by rvg View Post
    You are mistaking indifference for hostility.
    I don't believe I am mistaking anything.

    Indifference when gay people are tortured fits the "completely unacceptable and barbaric"-label neatly. Indifference which results in gays have reduced rights in society also fits well.

    I read an interview with the Russian ambassador to Norway about a week ago. It was utterly hilarious. He acted like he didn't know that what he said is what we found unacceptable(making it illegal to portray gays positively), and kept saying "nono, you don't understand" all the time. Not sure if he's a robot or an idiot though.


    Russia isn't a society with "traditional, christian values" like they love to say. This law makes it perfectly clear that Russia in 2013 is a backwards country with barbaric and retarded values.
    Last edited by HoreTore; 08-16-2013 at 00:55.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

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    Upstanding Member rvg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Russian Anti-gay laws and violence, and the Olympic (Winter) Games.

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore View Post
    I don't believe I am mistaking anything.

    Indifference when gay people are tortured fits the "completely unacceptable and barbaric"-label neatly. Indifference which results in gays have reduced rights in society also fits well.
    Who is torturing them?

    I read an interview with the Russian ambassador to Norway about a week ago. It was utterly hilarious. He acted like he didn't know that what he said is what we found unacceptable(making it illegal to portray gays positively), and kept saying "nono, you don't understand" all the time. Not sure if he's a robot or an idiot though.
    What did you expect? He's an ambassador.


    Russia isn't a society with "traditional, christian values" like they love to say. This law makes it perfectly clear that Russia in 2013 is a backwards country with barbaric and retarded values.
    You speak out of utter ignorance. You are equating Russian values with Russian laws; nothing could be further from the truth.
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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Russian Anti-gay laws and violence, and the Olympic (Winter) Games.

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore View Post
    I sincerely hope we will see a lot of athletes with rainbow colours somewhere on their gear.

    The Russian attitude towards gays is completely unacceptable and barbaric.
    More concerned about the attitude towards gays people from a certain religion have within our own borders. You can be gay in Russia as long as you don't want to make a point out of it and keep your head down a bit, that's not perfect but making all too much noise about it is kinda hypocrite.

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    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
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    Default Re: Russian Anti-gay laws and violence, and the Olympic (Winter) Games.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    You can be gay...as long as you don't want to make a point... and keep your head down a bit, that's not perfect but(t).
    Selective quoting... Couldn't resist.
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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Russian Anti-gay laws and violence, and the Olympic (Winter) Games.

    Quote Originally Posted by Papewaio View Post
    Selective quoting... Couldn't resist.

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    smell the glove Senior Member Major Robert Dump's Avatar
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    Default Re: Russian Anti-gay laws and violence, and the Olympic (Winter) Games.

    I don't see what the problem is since there are no gay athletes

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    Master of useless knowledge Senior Member Kitten Shooting Champion, Eskiv Champion Ironside's Avatar
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    Default Re: Russian Anti-gay laws and violence, and the Olympic (Winter) Games.

    Quote Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name View Post
    Putin is not a dictator of an empire, he is a dictator of a bunch of resource rich land. Where would Russia be if the EU no longer needed its natural gas?
    Good question. We're seeing the answer in real time due to the US fracking gas, that's severly price cutting the Russian one.
    We are all aware that the senses can be deceived, the eyes fooled. But how can we be sure our senses are not being deceived at any particular time, or even all the time? Might I just be a brain in a tank somewhere, tricked all my life into believing in the events of this world by some insane computer? And does my life gain or lose meaning based on my reaction to such solipsism?

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    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: Russian Anti-gay laws and violence, and the Olympic (Winter) Games.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    More concerned about the attitude towards gays people from a certain religion have within our own borders. You can be gay in Russia as long as you don't want to make a point out of it and keep your head down a bit, that's not perfect but making all too much noise about it is kinda hypocrite.
    Gays in Russia are lured on dates which quickly turn into torture sessions, which is then published on the internet, uncensored. Are you suggesting that going on a date means "making a point of it"?

    I don't see much of a difference between the attitude of the resurgent christian values in russia, and the attitudes of muslim immigrants in western europe, by the way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Major Robert Dump View Post
    I don't see what the problem is since there are no gay athletes

    Chic Filet should be a sponsor.
    Half the norwegians are gay...
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

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    Forum Lurker Member Sir Moody's Avatar
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    Default Re: Russian Anti-gay laws and violence, and the Olympic (Winter) Games.

    I with Horetore here - the stories coming out of Russia are terrifying and the fact their government is actively ignoring these attacks (and worse actively telling the victims not to bother reporting them) very much earns them the "barbaric" moniker

    we aren't just talking "good ole fashioned gay beatings" either - we are talking murders, "corrective" rapes, brutal maiming and torture - and still the Police and Government refuse to step in and curb the violence...

    as to the Olympics... changing the venue or boycotting the event wouldn't change anything - better to take part and have the Worlds media shine a light on Russia...

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    Upstanding Member rvg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Russian Anti-gay laws and violence, and the Olympic (Winter) Games.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Moody View Post
    I with Horetore here - the stories coming out of Russia are terrifying and the fact their government is actively ignoring these attacks (and worse actively telling the victims not to bother reporting them) very much earns them the "barbaric" moniker

    we aren't just talking "good ole fashioned gay beatings" either - we are talking murders, "corrective" rapes, brutal maiming and torture - and still the Police and Government refuse to step in and curb the violence...
    Can you provide a link to the aforementioned "murders", "corrective rapes" and the like? The OP link doesn't feature any violence, sexual or otherwise.
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    Forum Lurker Member Sir Moody's Avatar
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    Default Re: Russian Anti-gay laws and violence, and the Olympic (Winter) Games.

    here is a link to an amalgamation of some stories which saves me tracking down all the links

    http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2013/08/08...russia-so-far/

    Unfortunately there are no links to the "corrective rape" stories from actual new sources - some quotes of gay right activists claiming it happens and Stephen Fry made a point of it to the BBC but no actual cases in the news - then again you wouldn't expect there to be since rape is under reported as is even over here

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    Upstanding Member rvg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Russian Anti-gay laws and violence, and the Olympic (Winter) Games.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Moody View Post
    here is a link to an amalgamation of some stories which saves me tracking down all the links

    http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2013/08/08...russia-so-far/

    Unfortunately there are no links to the "corrective rape" stories from actual new sources - some quotes of gay right activists claiming it happens and Stephen Fry made a point of it to the BBC but no actual cases in the news - then again you wouldn't expect there to be since rape is under reported as is even over here
    So... there's a mention of one (1) murder and no corrective rapes. That's just an isolated incident, nothing more.
    "And if the people raise a great howl against my barbarity and cruelty, I will answer that war is war and not popularity seeking. If they want peace, they and their relatives must stop the war." - William Tecumseh Sherman

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    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: Russian Anti-gay laws and violence, and the Olympic (Winter) Games.

    Quote Originally Posted by rvg View Post
    So... there's a mention of one (1) murder and no corrective rapes. That's just an isolated incident, nothing more.
    Sounds like you need to research the "Occupy Pedophilia"-group a bit.

    A linky: http://www.theatlantic.com/internati...llying/278294/
    Last edited by HoreTore; 08-16-2013 at 14:52.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

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    Upstanding Member rvg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Russian Anti-gay laws and violence, and the Olympic (Winter) Games.

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore View Post
    Sounds like you need to research the "Occupy Pedophilia"-group a bit.
    I don't need to research anything. The evidence presented so far is rather wanting. One guy dead, a few guys beaten up by local drunks and a few people on the internet claiming how they're being repressed and of course the ever present Internet Tough Guys ready to rape pillage and burn...
    Yeah, perfect reasons for the athletes all over the world to cripple their sports careers over some unsubstantiated hearsay.
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