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Thread: responding to common objections to bible part 5

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    Default responding to common objections to bible part 5

    Continuing a series responding to the top 15 or so most common objections to the bible.


    My first was how could a loving god send people to hell
    https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showth...people-to-Hell


    second was what about those who have never heard of bible/jesus
    https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showth...sus&highlight=


    third thread was
    3 -does the bible allow slavery?
    4-why is there death and suffering if god is all loving?/the reason for the gospel
    5-does the bible command rape? was rape allowed?
    6- why does god not show himself today?
    7- has the bible been translated accurately?
    https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showth...tions-to-bible


    part 4 was
    8-Did Jesus claim to be divine?does the bible teach he was god?did man or the councils create Jesus's divinity after he died?
    9- conquest of Canaan, did god order genocide? did god order the killings of entire towns? did god order the killings of woman and children?did god order the death of innocent life?. What was the reason for judgment on the Canaanites?.
    10- Did god harden Pharaoh heart? only to punish him for it?.
    https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...o-bible-part-4



    11 Sins of the fathers punish the children? are children or later generations punished for the sins of the fathers?.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their fathers; each is to die for his own sin.
    Deut. 24:16

    The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him.
    Ezekiel 18:20

    if they continue in fathers sins, they will be punished.

    they continue in fathers sins will cause judgment, otherwise god would relent. example 1 sam 15 3 and 5 god says he will punish amalakites for what happened in Egypt long before [fathers]. Yet they continued in fathers sin judges 3.12 6 3-5,33 7.12 10.12 etc
    1 sam 30 1 sam 15.18 show they are presently wicked.


    A key to understanding this business is a concept called vicarious punishment that is found in the law codes of the ANE. Greenberg [Chr.SPPS, 295] offers these examples:

    A creditor who has maltreated the distrained sin of his debtor that he dies, must lose his own son. If a man struck the pregnant daughter of another so that she miscarried and died, his own daughter must be put to death. A seducer must deliver his wife to the seduced girl's father for prostitution. In another class are penalties which involve the substitution of a dependent for the offerer -- the Hittite laws compelling a slayer to deliver so many persons to the kinsmen of the slain, or prescribing that a man who has pushed another into a fire must give over his son...
    Now it is precisely this kind of punishment, which was prescribed in every law code in the Near East, that Deut. 24:16 is intended to forbid. The verse is not a universal motto, but a time-specific law intended as a direct counter to the practices listed above. "The proper understanding of this requires...that it be recognized as a judicial provision, not a theological dictum." [Chr.SPPS, 296, 298]
    http://www.tektonics.org/lp/paydaddy.html


    many today support abortion because of rape, that is punishing the child for the sins of the father.





    12- OT death penalty laws
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    -The OT laws are not gods perfect plan,but for a specific time and people coming from a ancient near eastern culture. Matt 19.8
    -Courts were to rule rightly with jew or gentile Deuteronomy 1 16-17
    -Isreal joined a covenant they were free to leave at any time,first 100-200 years there were no punishments for any laws broken. God never made anyone follow him,they could always leave the camp if they did not want to follow rules.
    -there are many case laws, such as if a man sells his daughter in slavery if two man fight etc these are inferior conditions.
    -we cannot apply todays western standards to OT near eastern jews.

    -death penalty is to stop murders from happening in first place
    num 35 33-34
    .

    Death penalty did not have to be carried out/ ways of forgiveness and were very rare.

    The law is full of chances for mercy forgiveness etc. but in the case of unrepentant law breakers punishment. If people were to follow the rules of love your god with all your heart and your neighbor as yourself there would be no punishments.


    At any time a witness or sanhedrian could call off a death penalty.

    There are 16 crimes that call for death penalty in OT, only in the case of premeditated murder does it say officials in Israel were forbidden to take "ransom" or "substitute" for punishment [numbers 35 30-31 genesis 9.6] . The death penalty did not have to be carried out in all cases.
    (H)e must bring as his offering for the sin he committed a female goat without defect. He is to lay his hand on the head of the sin offering and slaughter it at the place of the burnt offering. Then the priest is to take some of the blood with his finger and put it on the horns of the altar of burnt offering and pour out the rest of the blood at the base of the altar. He shall remove all the fat, just as the fat is removed from the fellowship offering, and the priest shall burn it on the altar as an aroma pleasing to the LORD. In this way the priest will make atonement for him, and he will be forgiven. (Leviticus 4:28-31, NIV)

    For the life of a creature is in the blood , and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one's life. (Leviticus 17:11, NIV)

    we should also keep in mind that a common feature of ANE law codes was to describe the maximum possible punishment while allowing for less severe sentences. See#Is the Bible an immoral book?#Notice, for example, that when Joseph discovered that Mary, his betrothed, was pregnant, he was called "just" for planning to "divorce her quietly" rather than "put her to shame" (Matthew 1:9).
    http://creation.com/bible-awful-rules

    “The death penalty was marked to show seriousness of crime” p 95-96 Is god A moral monster Paul Copan

    death penalty's were very rare,if more than 1 death penalty in 70 years was given it was called a killer court, according to tovia singer http://www.outreachjudaism.org/ the most well know Jewish apologist and debater, also goes with other jews who have said the same

    A Sanhedrin that puts a man to death once in seven years is called destructive. Rabbi Eliezer ben Azariah says that this extends to a Sanhedrin that puts a man to death even once in seventy years.
    makkot 1:10 March 11, 2008

    Tovia singeralso told me the purpose of death penalty was to atone for the sin of the person and show the gravity of the sin, just as paul copan in his book is god a moral monster.


    had to be shown guilty in court/ Very hard to convict
    There had to be two or more witnesses to the act,so it had to be more of a public display witch would spread sin to the community,also to show punishment for sin.
    Before any punishments the guilty had to be brought to court and convicted by judges,In rabbinic law, capital punishment may only be inflicted by the verdict of a regularly constituted court of three-and-twenty qualified members. There must be the most trustworthy and convincing testimony of at least two qualified eye-witnesses to the crime, who must also depose that the culprit had been forewarned of the criminality and the consequences of his project
    http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/ar...tal-punishment


    The Talmud limits the use of the death penalty to Jewish criminals who:
    (A) while about to do the crime were warned not to commit the crime while in the presence of two witnesses (and only individuals who meet a strict list of standards are considered acceptable witnesses); and
    (B) having been warned, committed the crime in front of the same two witnesses
    http://judaism.about.com/od/orthodox...ery_punish.htm


    also the OT says that god would prefer the guilty to make restitution outside of court with victim, and the victim has choice of forgiveness or justice, also Luke 12 58-59 says it is better to settle out of court than to face penalty.

    God does not want any criminal to be given death penalty/rather they stop their sin.
    "'Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked?,' says the Lord God, 'And not rather that he should turn from his way and live? For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone,' says the Lord God. 'So turn and live! Say to them, "As I live," says the Lord God, "I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways. For why will you die?"'" (Ez. 18.23,32; 33.11).


    "The Lord is not willing that any should perish but that all should reach repentance" (2Pet. 3.9).
    "He desires all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth" (1Tim. 2.4).
    God personally suffers with human sin/judgment jer 9.9 12.7-9 15 5-9 48 29-53 Ezekiel 27 3-11 26-36.
    Isiah 15.5 16 9-11 jer 9.10 17-18 31.20 48 30-36
    god suffers for humanity Isiah 15 42 23-24 48.9 57.11 63.9 jer 15.6 Ezekiel 20 21-11 24.12 mal 2.17.
    God punishing in war does not make it good,but he will for good outcome.

    sometimes the death of someone is good in certain circumstances,sep 11 the president gave orders to shoot down planes-to save lives that the terrorist could have used to kill more innocent lives. Sometimes judges give the death penalty to certain murders,but we dont call them murders we call them good just judges.
    in 1 ch 28.3 king David is not the one allowed to build the temple because he has to much blood on his hands[ he killed to many people] even though they were god ordered killings, death is still a bad thing and not normal or natural part of life.



    Reason for death penalty
    Many of the capital punishment laws were to stamp out certain sins and to stop them from spreading.
    The punishments do not effect the individuals salvation. The punishments are to cause the sinner to repent this is said over and over in the bible. Also to stop sins from happening with other people.

    18 And the judges shall make careful inquiry, and indeed, if the witness is a false witness, who has testified falsely against his brother, 19 then you shall do to him as he thought to have done to his brother; so you shall put away the evil from among you. 20 And those who remain shall hear and fear, and hereafter they shall not again commit such evil among you.
    Deuteronomy 19 18-20 this is repeated over and over in bible [other reason as well look below]

    In 2 kings 4 1-7 god does a miracle to prevent the punishment of the law on a undeserving [of the penalty] person.
    When a woman caught in adultery was brought to jesus in john 8 3-11 the scribes say the woman should be stoned, than jesus said the first with no sin through the first stone, he then forgave her, because

    always he has showed you, O man, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.
    Micah 6.8

    In perspective of modern life
    we need to consider that crimes of that time such as adultery had much bigger impacts and were considered greater crimes than today, even 50 years ago divorce was very rare and seen as a very bad thing.So some things such as adultery would be like what we consider maybe child molesters or similar.Also no adultery no punishment fulfillment of the law

    We over time as we get more sinful, accept certain crimes we originally would not, or see them as not so bad because we are sinners ourselves. Example, when I was young I said I would never smoke a cigaret, than I started smoking, well ill never smoke pot, than I started, ill never smoke as much as them, than I did, well ill never do cocaine, then I did, so you can see we all do this in many ways towards things we do wrong.
    But god does not sin he does not grow in sinfulness as we do. He is a just judge not a sinful human.

    Reasons for punishments -2 fold

    death penalty is to stop murders from happening in first place
    num 35 33-34

    My son, do not despise the LORD’s discipline,
    ###and do not resent his rebuke,
    12 because the LORD disciplines those he loves,
    ###as a father the son he delights in.
    proverbs 3. 11-12

    18 And the judges shall make careful inquiry, and indeed, if the witness is a false witness, who has testified falsely against his brother, 19 then you shall do to him as he thought to have done to his brother; so you shall put away the evil from among you. 20 And those who remain shall hear and fear, and hereafter they shall not again commit such evil among you.
    Deuteronomy 19 18-20 this is repeated over and over in bible

    while the death of anyone is not a good thing and is certainly not nice but“ nice” is not always good, being nice with no judgment can have very bad results.
    For example, crime was decreasing in the decades to the 1960s, when we punished criminals more. E.g. in America, the absolute number of murders committed in the U.S. in 1960 was less than in 1930, 1940 or 1950, even though the population was larger (murder is a particularly clear indicator of lower crime, since no one can simply dismiss this with “there was just less reported crime back then”). But then evolution-based ideas infected the justice system: this ‘root causes’ nonsense, proclaiming that the criminals were ‘victims of society’ such as poverty and racism. Yet these factors were much higher in the 1950s when there was lower crime. But the results were predictable: lower the ‘cost’ of crime, and there will be more of it. This has been thoroughly documented in Dr Thomas Sowell’s fine book
    http://www.amazon.com/Vision-Anointe...cial-HYPERLINK "http://www.amazon.com/Vision-Anointed-Self-Congratulation-Social-Policy/dp/046508995X"Policy/dp/HYPERLINK



    if law is rejected than
    And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold.
    Matthew 24:12


    Death penalty laws to harsh?
    http://jasonlisle.com/2012/01/23/god...what-standard/
    http://jasonlisle.com/2012/01/23/gods-law-too-harsh/


    what was stoning?
    The goal was for quick painless death, they did not have lethal injection in that day.
    the Talmudic method of how stoning is to be carried out differs from mob stoning. According to the Jewish Oral Law, after the Jewish criminal has been determined as guilty before the Great Sanhedrin, the two valid witnesses and the sentenced criminal go to the edge of a two story building. From there the two witnesses are to push the criminal off the roof of a two story building. The two-story height is chosen as this height is estimated by the Talmud to effect a quick and painless demise but is not so high that the body will become dismembered. After the criminal has fallen, the two witnesses are to drop a large boulder onto the criminal – requiring both of the witnesses to lift the boulder together


    what is fulfilling the law?
    fulfilling the law is to love god with all your heart and your neighbor as your self, if you love your neighbor you will not steal from them murder them etc.

    36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”
    #37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.” Matthew 22:36-40 referring to Deuteronomy 6.5 and Leviticus 19.18


    8 Do not owe anyone anything, except to love one another, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. 9 The commandments:
    ### You shall not commit adultery,
    ### you shall not murder,
    ### you shall not steal,
    ### you shall not covet,
    ### and if there is any other commandment—all are summed up by this: You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
    ### 10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor. Love, therefore, is the fulfillment of the law.
    Romans 13 8-9

    But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law
    Galatians 5 22-23

    8 Then the word of the LORD came to Zechariah, saying, 9 “Thus says the LORD of hosts:
    Execute true justice,
    ######Show mercy and compassion
    ######Everyone to his brother.
    ###### 10 Do not oppress the widow or the fatherless,
    ######The alien or the poor.
    ######Let none of you plan evil in his heart
    ######Against his brother.’
    Zechariah 7 8-10

    8 He has shown you, O mortal, what is good.
    And what does the LORD require of you?
    To act justly and to love mercy
    and to walk humbly[a] with your God.
    micah 6.8





    do the death penalty laws apply today?.
    1.### Anything proscribed as a law before Sinai, should still in effect today. This would include the judgment of capital punishment for murder as listed in Gen. 9:5-6. However, mankind has in many instances substituted some type of imprisonment in the place of capital punishment. This is not as God wants it, but it is in many cases the law of the land. Of course the death penalty is still used by many countries and states within the U.S. for murder, and this is as it should be. If the state one lives in does not have the death penalty, then as citizens we can lobby, campaign and vote for it, but cannot take the law into our own hands, of course.
    2.### The N.T. reinforces the death penalty for murder only. So capital punishment is not abolished in the N.T., but it is only this Gen. 9:5-6 instance that is carried over. All of the Levitical capital punishments are not emphasized in the N.T.#and in fact seem to be left up to civil authorities to decide the punishments. The Levitical laws were civil laws for a theocracy, we do not live under a theocracy, but a republican democracy, In Paul’s time he loved under an imperial republic yet Romans 13:4 states "For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil". The term sword is a carefully selected word by Paul. In instances of non-lethal punishment Paul would have used the words "rod" "scourge" or "cudgel", these were the recognized Roman terms for physical but non-lethal punishment. Monetary fines would have been called "security" "guarantee" or "pledge" (as in Acts 17:9 and Eph. 1:14). Therefore the use of the term "sword" means that God has granted civil authorities the power to mete out any punishment (up to and including the death penalty) for various crimes. 1 Pet. 2:13-14 seem to show governmental punishment that is non-lethal.
    3.### Acts 23:29, 25:25, 26:31 all indicate that the Roman government recognized that some crimes were deserving of capital punishment and some were clearly not. Paul also recognized this, and even stated so in Acts 25:11. It can be inferred, based on Mark 15:7 that the reason Rome had sentenced Barabbas to death was that he was a murderer. He would certainly never have been released had he been in rebellion against Rome, therefore the rebellion mentioned here must have been against fellow Jews, but because he had committed murder, he was slated for execution. 1 Pet. 4:15 seems to show a hierarchy of offenses, starting with the most heinous (and probably a listing of capital to non-capital crimes) and working to less offensive.
    4.#1 Corinthians 6:9-11
    Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,#nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.#And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.
    This clearly refers to a homosexual and their sexual practice. But notice that all sexual sin is condemned here in this passage. In addition, thieves and drunks and other sins are mentioned here, but not murder. Also notice that some (or probably better rendered “all of you at some time in the past”) participated in one or more of these sins which excluded them from the kingdom of God; but they were washed and sanctified by Christ. If these practices were not sins, there would have been no need of Paul to make this statement. But the exclusion of murder seems odd. Surely they will not inherit the kingdom of God either, right? Well the reason Paul didn’t address them is because there were none living to address. Roman law as well as Jewish law, proscribed the death penalty for murder and back then death came much quicker in the legal system. This is not to say that even murderers cannot be saved by Jesus Christ’s blood, because Paul was one, as was King David. The point is that Scripture makes clear that we must suffer for the civil penalties of our sins (as in the case of 1 Pet. 4:15 above), and if a Christian were to commit murder, he must be willing to face the death penalty. However, for all the other crimes listed, it appears that the civil penalty was imprisonment, beating or fines (or perhaps a combination).
    #
    To sum up, Levitical laws have been replaced by civic laws for every country according to Rom. 13 and 1 Pet. 2.



    13- What about the crusades,witch trials,inquisitions and other “crimes” of Christians throughout history.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    -atheist have to span the course of history to try and pick a few major things that christian [numbering in the billions] have done wrong.

    -What we must assume before saying what Christians did was wrong.

    Assumptions/things to consider before answering.

    Atheist must put themselves in place as god, as perfect judge of people living thousands of years ago, to decided what is morally correct or not.
    1] we must assume we are god, that only we can tell and know what is morally acceptable or not.
    2] we must assume their are such things as morals, “right” and “wrong” those ideas only make sense if a moral god created us.
    3]we must assume our evolved brains of completely random chemical reactions and matter can somehow have the right idea of what is right and wrong, our evolved animal brains formed by random chemical reactions and matter [dirt] that combined for a survival advantage[according to atheist]. They only “feel” killing is wrong because the random chemical reactions give them a chemical feeling that killing is wrong.
    https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showth...ity&highlight=

    is god not able to take life he has given?


    Morality makes no sense in a atheist worldview
    "if it all happens naturalistic whats the need for a god? cant I set my own rules? who owns me? I own myself".
    Jefery dahmer DVD documentary Jeffrey Dahmer the monster within

    This is inconsistent with an evolutionary worldview in which there is no logical basis for “good” or “bad.” By making such a statement, the evolutionist is actually borrowing morals from the Christian worldview and the Bible in order to claim something is “trickery.”
    Within a naturalistic, evolutionary worldview, morality is merely a matter of subjective opinion. So, whether something such as trickery or deception is wrong depends on each person—because it’s merely the result of chemical reactions in our brains.
    I could just as easily say that this email we received is deceptive and full of wishful thinking. And if I get a big enough group together, we can decide that your definition of trickery is wrong. The combined random chemical reactions in our brains form the majority, which makes you wrong—at least until another majority comes along. Without any ultimate standard, we could go back and forth all day saying this is right or that is right.
    As silly as this scenario sounds, it is one of the only arguments evolutionists have for anything that resembles morality. Absolute morals only make sense in a Christian worldview—they come from the One who knows what is good because He is the standard for good. The only One who fits that description is the God of the Bible, the Creator of the universe.

    So, for example, if the Nazis had won World War II and succeeded in brainwashing or exterminating everyone who disagreed with them, so that everybody would think the Holocaust had been good, it would still have been wrong, because God says it is wrong, regardless of human opinion. Morality is based in God, and so real right and wrong exist and are unaffected by human opinions.


    In fact you only#feel#,murder,rape etc are wrong because the#random chemical reactions in your brain make you feel that way.#Not because it truly is right or wrong. I may be like hitler and think murdering is good, what makes your random chemical reactions correct and mine wrong?.They have no right to tell another person [random chemical reactions] That thinks murder,rape,sexism are good [hitler]. That that person is wrong to do so. there is no way to now if you, and not the other person have the right chemical reactions. In fact there is no "right" reactions, or good or bad.

    #
    Atheist philosopher Richard Taylor
    The modern age, more or less repudiating the idea of a divine lawgiver, has nevertheless tried to retain the ideas of moral right and wrong, without noticing that in casting God aside they have also abolished the meaningfulness of right and wrong as well. Thus, even educated persons sometimes declare that such things as war, or abortion, or the violation of certain human rights are morally wrong, and they imagine that they have said something true and meaningful. Educated people do not need to be told, however, that questions such as these have never been answered outside of religion
    http://www.reasonablefaith.org/a-chr...ality#_ednref3


    "In a universe of blind physical forces and genetic replication, some people are going to get hurt, and other people are going to get lucky; and you won’t find any rhyme or reason to it, nor any justice. The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is at the bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil and no good. Nothing but blind pitiless indifference. DNA neither knows nor cares. DNA just is, and we dance to its music."Richard Dawkins, --Out of Eden, page 133

    “ He who does not wish to fight in this world, where permanent struggle is the law of life, has not the right to exist”.
    Hitler A Mein Kampf, english translation by James Murphy, 1939 Fredonia Classics, New York, p266 2003

    “The stronger must dominate and not mate with the weaker, which would signify the sacrafice of its own higher nature. Only the born weakling can look upon this principle as cruel,and if he does so it is mearly because he is of a feebler nature and narrower mind for if such a law did not direct the process of evolution#
    then the higher development of organic life would not be conceivable at all”.
    Hitler A Mein Kampf, english translation by James Murphy, 1939 Fredonia Classics, New York, p262 2003#


    Darwin on the poor
    “With savages, the weak in body or mind are soon eliminated; and those that survive commonly exhibit a vigorous state of health. We civilised men, on the other hand, do our utmost to check the process of elimination; we build asylums for the imbecile, the maimed, and the sick; we institute poor-laws; and our medical men exert their utmost skill to save the life of every one to the last moment. There is reason to believe that vaccination has preserved thousands, who from a weak constitution would formerly have succumbed to small-pox. Thus the weak members of civilised societies propagate their kind. No one who has attended to the breeding of domestic animals will doubt that this must be highly injurious to the race of man. It is surprising how soon a want of care, or care wrongly directed, leads to the degeneration of a domestic race; but excepting in the case of man himself, hardly any one is so ignorant as to allow his worst animals to breed.
    #Charles Darwin,#The Descent of Man


    atheist crimes
    atheist governments killings morality etc
    77 million in Communist China, 62 million in the Soviet Gulag State, 21 million non-battle killings by the Nazis, 2 million murdered in the Khmer Rouge killing fields (see also Rummel, R.J., Death by Government, New Brunswick, N.J.: Transaction Publishers, 1994).

    Even adjusting for changes in population size, atheist regimes are responsible for 100 times more death in one century than Christian rulers inflicted over five centuries.
    As for the Inquisition, much of the modern stereotype was largely made up by Spain’s political enemies, and later by anti-Christians. The Inquisition only had authority over professing Christians, and the Inquisition trials were often fairer and more lenient than their secular counterparts. Often the only penalty given was some sort of penance such as fasting. Over a period of 350 years, historians such as Henry Kamen15 estimate only between 1,500 and 4,000 people were executed for heresy.
    The Salem witch trials constitute the best-known example of religiously motivated violence. However, fewer than 25 people were killed in the trials, falling far short of the ‘perhaps hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions’ (p. 207) that the late antitheist Carl Sagan wrote about.
    Having shown that Christianity’s ‘religious crimes’ are far less horrendous than atheists would argue; he goes on to show that atheism, not religion, is responsible for mass murders. In fact, ‘atheist regimes have in a single century murdered more than one hundred million people’ (p. 214). Even adjusting for changes in population size, atheist regimes are responsible for 100 times more death in one century than Christian rulers inflicted over five centuries. However, while it can easily be shown that crimes committed in the name of Christianity are not sanctioned by its teaching, the bloodbaths of the atheist regimes are consistent with an atheist, evolutionary outlook. Indeed, atheists have no moral basis to say that anything is right or wrong



    Nazi dictator Adolf Hitler#(1889-1945) endorsed a program in Germany to breed a superior race. The scheme was based on a horrific evolutionary theory called “eugenics” that was founded by Charles Darwin's cousin, Francis Galton. The idea of eugenics was to improve the human race using principles promoted in the theory of evolution.
    The idea was simple: partition the human race into two groups, the “fit” and the “unfit.” Eugenics seemed to be a way to make sure the “fit” had children and the “unfit” did not. In Germany, the leaders of the eugenics movement got monstrous laws enacted that allowed sterilization of people regarded as “unfit,” and restriction of immigrants who were supposedly “biologically inferior.” (The United States and other countries enacted similar laws, but the Nazis took it to the extreme when Jews, blacks, and others were ruthlessly murdered to prop up the theory.)
    The German people were being seduced to accept that they could be the “master race” by exterminating the “unfit.” If evolution was right, they reasoned, and “survival of the fittest” was merely a positive, evolutionary process, then what could be wrong with hastening the deaths of the “unfit”?
    Eugenics could only become popular because the theory of evolution seemed to have quashed the need for the sovereign Creator, God, who had given humankind absolute moral laws. When you do away with moral laws, outrageous racism and crimes like compulsory sterilization, Hitler's death camps, and mass murder on a maniacal scale can no longer be said to be evil.



    Russian communist leader Leon Trotsky#(1879-1940), left, was a fanatical supporter of Marxism and Darwinism. In the Russian Civil War of 1918-20, he used the force of the Red Army to stamp out whoever he decided was an enemy of the Soviet State.
    He confiscated food from peasants, brutalized the Ukrainian army of insurgent peasants, and killed its guerrilla leader, N. I. Makhno.
    He inflicted torture and violence against Christians, mercilessly trashed churches, and led the Society of the Godless to get rid of religion.
    Trotsky was mesmerized by Charles Darwin's#Origin of Species. He said: “Darwin stood for me like a mightly doorkeeper at the entrance to the temple of the universe.” He said that Darwin's ideas “intoxicated” him. And he could not understand in the slightest how belief in God could find room in the same head as belief in Darwin's ideas.
    Like Hitler, Trotsky was a tyrant who saw Darwin's theory of evolution as scientific justification for dismissing God's moral laws. He clearly saw that the two ideas, God and evolution, were totally incompatible. His atrocities were consistent with this belief, for when you do away with the idea of the God who created you and who has given instructions for the right way to live, there is no reason to avoid despicably violent crimes. Even if this means murdering everyone who disagrees with you.


    eugenics
    ‘ …#modern eugenics thought arose only in the nineteenth century. The emergence of interest in eugenics during that century had multiple roots. The most important was the theory of evolution, for Francis Galton’s ideas on eugenics#—#and it was he who created the term “eugenics”#—#were a direct logical outgrowth of the scientific doctrine elaborated by his cousin, Charles Darwin.’
    Ludmerer, K., Eugenics,#In:#Encyclopedia of Bioethics,#Edited by Mark Lappe, The Free Press, New York, p. 457, 1978

    ‘ … struggle, selection, and survival of the fittest, all notions and observations arrived at … by Darwin … but already in luxuriant bud in the German social philosophy of the nineteenth century. … Thus developed the doctrine of Germany’s inherent right to rule the world on the basis of superior strength … [of a] “hammer and anvil” relationship between the Reich and the weaker nations.’
    Keith, A.,#Evolution and Ethics,#G.P. Putnam’s Sons, New York, p. 230, 1946



    crusades


    This is a attack on the catholic church and in part fueled the protestant reformation. As catholic historian steve weidenkompf says "The crusade movement was a catholic movement"

    "Many in today's society believe the false history presented by critics. Enforced by the media, Hollywood and other outlets, popular perception of historical events reigns supreme even when that perception is completely at odds with historical reality"
    Steve Weidenkompf The glory of the crusades


    "Medevil historians have long known that popular culture image of the crusades has nothing at all to do with the events themselves"
    Thomas Madden Professor of History and Director of the Center for Medieval and Renaissance Studies at Saint Louis University.

    Crusades justified in Bible?

    “Does religious conviction provide a powerful reason for killing? Undeniably it often does. It also often provides the sole compelling reason for refusing to kill, or for being merciful, or for seeking peace; only the profoundest ignorance of history could prevent one from recognizing this. For the truth is that religion and irreligion are cultural variables, but killing is a human constant.”#
    ―#David Bentley Hart,#Atheist Delusions: The Christian Revolution and Its Fashionable Enemies
    “Every day people are straying away from the church and going back to God. Really.
    ~Lenny Bruce, "Religions Inc.," in The Essential Lenny Bruce, ed. John Cohen, 1967

    OT wars used to justify crusades? The Fighting in bible, god was actually there,not people saying they were fighting on gods side josh 5 13-15. In OT god was fighting for isreal, not isreal for god. Wars in OT were initiated by Yahweh himself. Nowere in OT does offensive military initiative with purpose of conversion or Territory expansion.
    "In holy wars isreal did not arise to protect faith in Yahweh, but Yahweh came on the scene to defend isreal"
    Holy War in the Bible:#Christian Morality and an Old Testament Problem Heath A. Thomas#(Editor),#Jeremy Evans#(Editor),#Paul Copan#(Editor)
    For a long list of differences between crusade/Yahweh wars in bible see p 182-189Holy War in the Bible:#Christian Morality and an Old Testament Problem

    Versus used to support crusades during the time period
    By in large Crusaders did not use Joshua to justify crusades, but read in typology of the church.
    Joshua and Canaanites Jericho were said to have not been Saracens. In fact Joshua 7 was used to tell crusaders to not pillage,steal,sin while on crusade. The Call of Abraham was used to support crusades genesis 12 portraying the difficulties of crusader leaving his family for economical uncertainty,difficulty in journey with possibility of death. It was seen as spiritual journey , and love/sacrifice to god were the major themes. Alos Luke 9.23 and Maccabees [non canonical] and gospels were used. numbers 21 21-24 were used as reason for just [defensive] war, after Islam expansion.

    “ Maybe our understanding of crusades is wrong? And their motivations for it?
    Holy War in the Bible: Christian Morality and an Old Testament Problem#[Paperback]
    Heath A. Thomas#(Editor),#Jeremy Evans#(Editor),#Paul Copan#(Editor)




    What were the crusades?

    The word crusade not used until 1706, at the time they happened they were known as armed pilgrimages to the holy land. The were undertaken at great loss of life,money and earthly gain to go and risk life for fellow Christians under persecution, to retake christian lands from Muslim conquerors, to sacrifice for god and to put the holy sites back in christian control. They were controlled generally by the church and kings with rules/regulations such as no prostitution, no gambling,swearing and violators could be put to death. Often many went in small groups or alone a few larger groups that went are know known as first crusade,second crusade etc.


    Crusades were a defensive action against Muslim aggressors


    The men of Normandy had faith that what they were doing was right, faith that they fought for all humanity, faith that a just God would grant them mercy on this beachhead or on the next. It was the deep knowledge -- and pray God we have not lost it -- that there is a profound, moral difference between the use of force for liberation and the use of force for conquest. You were here to liberate, not to conquer, and so you and those others did not doubt your cause. And you were right not to doubt.
    President Ronald Reagan - June 6, 1984 POINTE DU HOC THE 40TH ANNIVERSAY OF THE NORMANDY INVASION, D-DAY

    great article gives time line of crusades, crusades were defensive act against Muslim expansions
    http://www.americanthinker.com/2005/...ic_crusad.html
    also
    how did the Muslims get into Israel anyways?
    http://www.answeringmuslims.com/2009...rspective.html

    The crusaders saw their cause as a defensive action to protect themselves from further attacks and reclaim lost christian territories taken over by Muslim expansion for the past few hundred years. With Constantinople under threat with the emperor recently killed and army destroyed by invading Muslims armies ,that would unlock all of Europe to further Islamic expansion, they west responded.
    "The crusades began as a result of Muslim conquest of Christian territories"
    The New Concise History of the Crusades Thomas F. Madden p 4

    So what is the truth about the Crusades? Scholars are still working some of that out. But much can already be said with certainty. For starters, the Crusades to the East were in every way defensive wars. They were a direct response to Muslim aggression—an attempt to turn back or defend against Muslim conquests of Christian lands. With enormous energy, the warriors of Islam struck out against the Christians shortly after Mohammed's death. They were extremely successful. Palestine, Syria, and Egypt—once the most heavily Christian areas in the world—quickly succumbed. By the eighth century, Muslim armies had conquered all of Christian North Africa and Spain. In the eleventh century, the Seljuk Turks conquered Asia Minor (modern Turkey), which had been Christian since the time of St. Paul. The old Roman Empire, known to modern historians as the Byzantine Empire, was reduced to little more than Greece. In desperation, the emperor in Constantinople sent word to the Christians of western Europe asking them to aid their brothers and sisters in the East. That is what gave birth to the Crusades. They were not the brainchild of an ambitious pope or rapacious knights but a response to more than four centuries of conquests in which Muslims had already captured two-thirds of the old Christian world. At some point, Christianity as a faith and a culture had to defend itself or be subsumed by Islam. The Crusades were that defense.

    "Urban viewed the Crusade as a pilgrimage, the aim of which was not to conquer but to# visit the place of pilgrimage and then return home. Later popes maintained the understanding of the Crusades as just, defensive wars with the central goal of the recovery of ancient Christian territory. Heroic men and women of faith, rooted in love of Christ and neighbor, undertook the Crusades as acts of self-defense and recovery of stolen property. This is the proper understanding of these important events in Church history"
    Were the Crusades Just Wars? Steve Weidenkopf is a lecturer of Church History at the Notre Dame Graduate School of Christendom College# His book, The Glory of the Crusades


    He argues that the Muslims were the aggressors; conquering the previously predominately Christian Middle East. They went on to conquer parts of Africa, Asia, part of Italy and most of Spain. All the while, they forced conversions at sword-point. Finally, more than two hundred years later Christians attempted to take back the land that was conquered by the Muslims. The First Crusade was a success, resulting in Jerusalem being in Christian possession for nearly a century. Subsequent crusades failed, but without the crusades, D’Souza argues

    ‘Western Civilization might have been completely overrun by the forces of Islam … The Christians fought to defend themselves from foreign conquest, while the Muslims fought to continue conquering Christian lands’
    (p. 206).

    From the safe distance of many centuries, it is easy enough to scowl in disgust at the Crusades. Religion, after all, is nothing to fight wars over. But we should be mindful that our medieval ancestors would have been equally disgusted by our infinitely more destructive wars fought in the name of political ideologies. And yet, both the medieval and the modern soldier fight ultimately for their own world and all that makes it up. Both are willing to suffer enormous sacrifice, provided that it is in the service of something they hold dear, something greater than themselves. Whether we admire the Crusaders or not, it is a fact that the world we know today would not exist without their efforts ll have followed Zoroastrianism, another of Islam's rivals, into extinction.
    Thomas F. Madden#is associate professor and chair of the Department of History at Saint Louis University. He is the author of numerous works, including#The New Concise History of the Crusades, and co-author, with Donald Queller, of#The Fourth Crusade: The Conquest of Constantinople. This article originally appeared in the April 2002 issue of#Crisis#and is reprinted here with permission.

    In 1071 A few years before a pope called for crusade, Islamic Turks captured the byzantine Emperor and destroyed there army. The new Emperor called other christian nations for help.
    The New Concise History of the Crusades (Critical Issues in World and International History)[Paperback] Thomas F. Madden#(Author)


    "The Crusades were born from the violent aggression of Islam, which had conquered ancient Christian territory in the Holy Land and North Africa and established a large foothold in Europe within a century of Muhammad’s death in the early seventh century. Particularly troublesome to Christian Europe was the conquering of Jerusalem in 638 by an Islamic force that sacked the city for three days and destroyed over 300 churches and monasteries. ".......The invasion of Christian territory, Muslim persecution of native Christians and pilgrims, plus the threat posed to the Christian Byzantine Empire, were all legitimate reasons to engage in defensive warfare and, and Bl. Pope Urban II cited them as justification for the First Crusade.

    Were the Crusades Just Wars? Steve Weidenkopf is a lecturer of Church History at the Notre Dame Graduate School of Christendom College# His book, The Glory of the Crusades
    http://www.catholic.com/blog/steve-w...ades-just-wars


    "Muslim Turkish invasions in the 1050's caused much if not more mayhem and destruction than the crusades were able to achieve"
    God's War: A New History of the Crusades p13


    The church called for action to fight back against Muslim expansion.

    Medieval Sourcebook:Pope#Urban II (1088-1099):#Speech at Council of Clermont, 1095
    "For your brethren who live in the east are in urgent need of your help, and you must hasten to give them the aid which has often been promised them. For, as the most of you have heard, the Turks and Arabs have attacked them and have conquered the territory of Romania [the Greek empire] as far west as the shore of the Mediterranean and the Hellespont, which is called the Arm of St. George. They have occupied more and more of the lands of those Christians, and have overcome them in seven battles. They have killed and captured many, and have destroyed the churches and devastated the empire...
    Medieval Sourcebook:Pope#Urban II (1088-1099):#Speech at Council of Clermont, 1095
    Bongars,#Gesta Dei per Francos, 1, pp. 382 f., trans in Oliver J. Thatcher, and Edgar Holmes McNeal, eds.,#A Source Book for Medieval History, (New York: Scribners, 1905), 513-17#


    Modern scenario
    If iraq invaded isreal, killed and enslaved there people in horrible ways, even the liberal west, would say america was justified to go in and help isreal [that asked for help] and take back the lands. America would not be threatened at all, while medieval Europe was by Islamic expansion into Byzantine Empire .


    Help Christian's traveling to the holy land and Christians under Islamic rule from suffering.

    "Crusading," Professor Jonathan Riley-Smith has rightly argued, was understood as an "an act of love"—in this case, the love of one's neighbor. The Crusade was seen as an errand of mercy to right a terrible wrong. As Pope Innocent III wrote to the Knights Templar, "You carry out in deeds the words of the Gospel, 'Greater love than this hath no man, that he lay down his life for his friends.'"

    another reason for the crusades were to help persecuted Christians under Muslim control and those who wished to travel to the holy lands. Muslims had made travel to the holy lands expensive and near impossible as well as dangerous with torture/murder of pilgrims, at one point 12,000 unarmed german pilgrims were slaughtered.

    "The Crusades were also a response to the severe persecution of indigenous Christians living in the occupied territories, whose lives were severely restricted and who suffered constant pressure to convert to Islam Christian pilgrims were also subjected to harassment and violence, which demanded a defensive response from Christendom. The Seljuks, who were known for their brutality, threatened pilgrims to the holy sites in Palestine. As an example, a group of 12,000 German pilgrims led by Bishop Günther of Bamberg in 1065 was massacred by the Seljuks on Good Friday, only two days' march from Jerusalem."
    Were the Crusades Just Wars? Steve Weidenkopf is a lecturer of Church History at the Notre Dame Graduate School of Christendom College# His book, The Glory of the Crusades


    Pope Innocent III wrote:
    How does a man love according to divine precept his neighbor as himself when, knowing that his Christian brothers in faith and in name are held by the perfidious Muslims in strict confinement and weighed down by the yoke of heaviest servitude, he does not devote himself to the task of freeing them? … Is it by chance that you do not know that many thousands of Christians are bound in slavery and imprisoned by the Muslims, tortured with innumerable torments?

    Pope#Urban II (1088-1099):#Speech at Council of Clermont, 1095
    #"We have heard, most beloved brethren, and you have heard what we cannot recount without deep sorrow how, with great hurt and dire sufferings our Christian brothers, members in Christ, are scourged, oppressed, and injured in Jerusalem, in Antioch, and the other cities of the East. Your own blood brothers, your companions, your associates (for you are sons of the same Christ and the same Church) are either subjected in their inherited homes to other masters, or are driven from them, or they come as beggars among us; or, which is far worse, they are flogged and exiled as slaves for sale in their own land."


    Pope#Urban II (1088-1099):#Speech at Council of Clermont, 1095
    " at least let the great suffering of those who desired to go to the holy places stir you up. Think of those who made the pilgrimage across the sea! Even if they were more wealthy, consider what taxes, what violence they underwent, since they were forced to make payments and tributes almost every mile, to purchase release at every gate of the city, at the entrance of the churches and temples, at every side journey from place to place: also, if any accusation whatsoever were made against them, they were compelled to purchase their release; but if they refused to pay money, the prefects of the Gentiles, according to their custom, urged them fiercely with blows. What shall we say of those who took up the journey without anything more than trust in their barren poverty, since they seemed to have nothing except their bodies to lose? They not only demanded money of them, which is not an unendurable punishment, but also examined the callouses of their heels, cutting them open and folding the skin back, lest, perchance, they had sewed something there. Their unspeakable cruelty was carried on even to the point of giving them scammony to drink until they vomited, or even burst their bowels, because they thought the wretches had swallowed gold or silver; or, horrible to say, they cut their bowels open with a sword and, spreading out the folds of the intestines, with frightful mutilation disclosed whatever nature held there in secret. Remember, I pray, the thousands who have perished vile deaths, and strive for the holy places from which the beginnings of your faith have come.
    August. C. Krey,#The First Crusade: The Accounts of Eyewitnesses and Participants, (Princeton: 1921), 36-40


    Pope#Urban II (1088-1099):#Speech at Council of Clermont, 1095 From the confines of Jerusalem and the city of Constantinople a horrible tale has gone forth and very frequently has been brought to our ears, namely, that a race from the kingdom of the Persians, an accursed race, a race utterly alienated from God, a generation forsooth which has not directed its heart and has not entrusted its spirit to God, has invaded the lands of those Christians and has depopulated them by the sword, pillage and fire; it has led away a part of the captives into its own country, and a part it has destroyed by cruel tortures; it has either entirely destroyed the churches of God or appropriated them for the rites of its own religion. They destroy the altars, after having defiled them with their uncleanness. They circumcise the Christians, and the blood of the circumcision they either spread upon the altars or pour into the vases of the baptismal font. When they wish to torture people by a base death, they perforate their navels, and dragging forth the extremity of the intestines, bind it to a stake; then with flogging they lead the victim around until the viscera having gushed forth the victim falls prostrate upon the ground. Others they bind to a post and pierce with arrows. Others they compel to extend their necks and then, attacking them with naked swords, attempt to cut through the neck with a single blow. What shall I say of the abominable rape of the women? To speak of it is worse than to be silent. The kingdom of the Greeks is now dismembered by them and deprived of territory so vast in extent that it can not be traversed in a march of two months ...#Let therefore hatred depart from among you, let your quarrels end, let wars cease, and let all dissensions and controversies slumber. ....#Let the rich aid the needy"
    Dana C. Munro, "Urban and the Crusaders",#Translations and Reprints from the Original Sources of European History, Vol 1:2, (Philadelphia: University of Pennsylvania, 1895), 5-8#



    "[pope] Gregory did not sell this planned expedition as holy war...but of mercy and act of charity"
    The New Concise History of the Crusades Thomas F. Madden p 4

    the reason brothers geoffrey and guy went they wrote "to exterminate wickedness and unrestrained rage of the pagans by witch innumerable Christians have already been oppressed, made captive and killed"



    liberate Jerusalem

    The second goal was the liberation of Jerusalem and the other places made holy by the life of Christ. The word crusade is modern. Medieval Crusaders saw themselves as pilgrims, performing acts of righteousness on their way to the Holy Sepulcher. The Crusade indulgence they received was canonically related to the pilgrimage indulgence. This goal was frequently described in feudal terms. When calling the Fifth Crusade in 1215, Innocent III wrote:

    “Consider most dear sons, consider carefully that if any temporal king was thrown out of his domain and perhaps captured, would he not, when he was restored to his pristine liberty and the time had come for dispensing justice look on his vassals as unfaithful and traitors … unless they had committed not only their property but also their persons to the task of freeing him? … And similarly will not Jesus Christ, the king of kings and lord of lords, whose servant you cannot deny being, who joined your soul to your body, who redeemed you with the Precious Blood … condemn you for the vice of ingratitude and the crime of infidelity if you neglect to help Him?”


    Medieval Sourcebook:Pope#Urban II (1088-1099):#Speech at Council of Clermont, 1095
    "Of holy Jerusalem, brethren, we dare not speak, for we are exceedingly afraid and ashamed to speak of it. This very city, in which, as you all know, Christ Himself suffered for us, because our sins demanded it, has been reduced to the pollution of paganism and, I say it to our disgrace, withdrawn from the service of God. Such is the heap of reproach upon us who have so much deserved it! Who now serves the church of the Blessed Mary in the valley of Josaphat, in which church she herself was buried in body? But why do we pass over the Temple of Solomon, nay of the Lord, in which the barbarous nations placed their idols contrary to law, human and divine? Of the Lord's Sepulchre we have refrained from speaking, since some of you with your own eyes have seen to what abominations it has been given over. The Turks violently took from it the offerings which you brought there for alms in such vast amounts, and, in addition, they scoffed much and often 'at Your religion advance boldly, as knights of Christ, and rush as quickly as you can to the defence of the Eastern Church "
    August. C. Krey, The First Crusade: The Accounts of Eyewitnesses and Participants, (Princeton: 1921), 33-36



    Crusading was seen as a spiritual journey/sacrifice

    "Documentary evidence predating the conquest of Jerusalem,such as letters and charters,nonetheless confirms that most crusaders were primarily inspired to set out for the holy land by personal christian devotion."
    p 336 The first crusade a new history the roots of conflict between Christianity and Islam Thomas Asbridge.

    "In short, most noblemen who joined the crusade did so from a simple and sincere love of god"
    p 13 The New Concise History of the Crusades Thomas F. Madden


    "Although Crusaders responded to the papal call to engage in armed pilgrimage for a multitude of reasons, there is one motivator that outweighed all others: faith. Medieval people were steeped in the Catholic Faith; it permeated every aspect of society and their daily life. Above all, love of God, neighbor, and self drove participation in the Crusades.........Love of God and the desire to serve him dominated the themes of Crusade preachers. Popes and preachers used the image of a Crusader denying himself and taking up the Cross in imitation of the Savior to motivate warriors. Bl. Urban II told the assembly at Clermont that “it ought to be a beautiful ideal for you to die for Christ in that city where Christ died for you......#“It is a sure sign that he burns with love for God and with zeal when for God’s sake he leaves his fatherland, possessions, houses, sons and wife to go across the sea in the service of Jesus Christ.....Urban II granted an indulgence to anyone who “for devotion alone, not to gain honor or money, goes to Jerusalem to liberate the Church of God.”
    Steve Weidenkopf is a lecturer of Church History at the Notre Dame Graduate School of Christendom College


    "The evidence for the aristocratic response to the crusade message,strongly suggest that spiritual concerns dominated the minds of Latin nobility while they took to the cross".
    P 70 The first crusade a new history the roots of conflict between Christianity and islam Thomas Asbridge.

    As one crusader said "carrying the cross so that afterword they may be carried to haven by the cross"

    odo of burgundy said "the journey to Jerusalem as a penance for my sins.... since divine mercy inspired me that owing to the enormity of my sins I should go to the sepluchure of our savior, in order that this offering of my devotion might might be more acceptable in the sight of god"

    urbonat clermat "it ought to be a beautiful ideal for you to die for Christ in that city were Christ did for you"

    eudes of chateaurout " as sigh that man loves god when he cast aside the world.... for gods sake he leaves his fatherland,possessions, houses sons and wife to go across the sea in the service of Jesus Christ"


    Pope#Urban II (1088-1099):#Speech at Council of Clermont, 1095
    Whoever, therefore, shall determine upon this holy pilgrimage and shall make his vow to God to that effect and shall offer himself to Him as a, living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, shall wear the sign of the cross of the Lord on his forehead or on his breast. When,' truly',' having fulfilled his vow be wishes to return, let him place the cross on his back between his shoulders. Such, indeed, by the twofold action will fulfill the precept of the Lord, as He commands in the Gospel, "He that taketh not his cross and followeth after me, is not worthy of me."
    Dana C. Munro, "Urban and the Crusaders",#Translations and Reprints from the Original Sources of European History, Vol 1:2, (Philadelphia: University of Pennsylvania, 1895), 5-8#

    Pope#Urban II (1088-1099):#Speech at Council of Clermont, 1095
    When now that time was at hand which the Lord Jesus daily points out to His faithful, especially in the Gospel, saying, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me," a mighty agitation was carried on throughout all the region of Gaul. (Its tenor was) that if anyone desired to follow the Lord zealously, with a pure heart and mind, and wished faithfully to bear the cross after Him, he would no longer hesitate to take up the way to the Holy Sepulchre.

    #"Brethren, we ought to endure much suffering for the name of Christ - misery, poverty, nakedness, persecution, want, illness, hunger, thirst, and other (ills) of this kind, just as the Lord saith to His disciples: 'Ye must suffer much in My name,' and 'Be not ashamed to confess Me before the faces of men; verily I will give you mouth and wisdom,' and finally, 'Great is your reward in Heaven."' And when this speech had already begun to be noised abroad, little by little, through all the regions and countries of Gaul, the Franks, upon hearing such reports, forthwith caused crosses to be sewed on their right shoulders, saying that they followed with one accord the footsteps of Christ, by which they had been redeemed from the hand of hell.
    August. C. Krey,#The First Crusade: The Accounts of Eyewitnesses and Participants, (Princeton: 1921), 28-30.#
    See also Rosalind M. Hill, ed. and trans.,#Gesta francorum et aliorum Hierosolymitanorum: The Deeds of the Franks#(London: 1962), [Latin text with English translation.]


    During the first crusade, it was items of religious nature that influenced and pushed on the pilgrims,not wealth,such as the holy lance in Antioch that completely changed the campaign as told in.T homas asbridge the first crusade a new history the roots of conflict between Christianity and Islam.


    "It was prayer,fasting and sermons that kept the crusade going at Jerusalem"
    p 34 The New Concise History of the Crusades Thomas F. Madden



    "#Priests and other clerics who will be in the Christian army, both those under authority and prelates, shall diligently devote themselves to prayer and exhortation, teaching the crusaders by word and example to have the fear and love of God always before their eyes, so that they say or do nothing that might offend the divine majesty. If they ever fall into sin, let them quickly rise up again through true penitence. Let them be humble in heart and in body, keeping to moderation both in food and in dress, avoiding altogether dissensions and rivalries, and putting aside entirely any bitterness or envy, so that thus armed with spiritual and material weapons they may the more fearlessly fight against the enemies of the faith, relying not on their own power but rather trusting in the strength of God "........."#others who have taken up the cross, and those who may still do so, to carry out their vows to the Lord "
    FOURTH LATERAN COUNCIL (1215)



    Were the Crusades a conquest?

    At the end of the first crusade only 4,000 Europeans stayed, they did not view as conquest but as armed pilgrimage, with few staying to defend Jerusalem after done
    "the first crusaders and pope, thought all land would be returned to the byzantine empire"
    p 37 The New Concise History of the Crusades Thomas F. Madden


    Crusades for wealth?

    A series of holy wars against Islam led by power-mad popes and fought by religious fanatics? Think again.
    http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/...only/52.0.html

    Popes bishops and kings started taxing to help support the crusades because no one could afford to go. Many kings spent the nations entire treasury and spent multiple years worth of income of entire country just to fund a large crusade.

    "We now know that greed cannot have been the dominate motive among the first crusaders , not least because as recent research has shown, for most participants the expedition promised to be utterly terrifying and crippling expensive."
    P 68 The first crusade a new history the roots of conflict between Christianity and Islam Thomas Asbridge.


    "cost of crusade was enormous, most had to sell lands just to go.”
    The New Concise History of the Crusades Thomas F. Madden p 12

    "This charge can be easily debunked with the simple fact that going on Crusade was an extraordinary expense—costing a knight four to five times his annual income.#From being enriched, the vast majority of Crusaders suffered financial hardship as a result of their participation. Indeed, in order to finance such an expensive undertaking, many knights and their families sold or mortgaged their land and possessions"
    Steve Weidenkopf is a lecturer of Church History at the Notre Dame Graduate School of Christendom College


    when the 4th crusade sacked Constantinople for loot the pope [ who had excommunicated the crusade]said they were after earthly treasure not heavenly treasure


    During the past two decades, computer-assisted charter studies have demolished that contrivance. Scholars have discovered that crusading knights were generally wealthy men with plenty of their own land in Europe. Nevertheless, they willingly gave up everything to undertake the holy mission. Crusading was not cheap. Even wealthy lords could easily impoverish themselves and their families by joining a Crusade. They did so not because they expected material wealth (which many of them had already) but because they hoped to store up treasure where rust and moth could not corrupt. They were keenly aware of their sinfulness and eager to undertake the hardships of the Crusade as a penitential act of charity and love. Europe is littered with thousands of medieval charters attesting to these sentiments, charters in which these men still speak to us today if we will listen. Of course, they were not opposed to capturing booty if it could be had. But the truth is that the Crusades were notoriously bad for plunder. A few people got rich, but the vast majority returned with nothing.


    Versus preachers used to support crusades at the time.
    Call of Abraham was used to support crusades genesis 12 portraying the difficulties of crusader laving his family for economical uncertainty,difficulty in journey with possibility of death.
    Holy War in the Bible: Christian Morality and an Old Testament Problem#[Paperback]
    Heath A. Thomas#(Editor),#Jeremy Evans#(Editor),#Paul Copan#(Editor)

    The church also gave money to help with cost.

    "We and our brothers, cardinals of the holy Roman church, shall pay a full tenth. [crusading costs] "
    # FOURTH LATERAN COUNCIL (1215)



    were Jews to be harmed?

    "The Jews are not to be persecuted,nor killed,nor even forced to flee"
    St Bernard of clairvaux- most famous preacher of second crusade


    Jews were only officially protected non christian group in medieval society.


    St. Bernard frequently preached that the Jews were not to be persecuted:
    Ask anyone who knows the Sacred Scriptures what he finds foretold of the Jews in the Psalm. "Not for their destruction do I pray," it says. The Jews are for us the living words of Scripture, for they remind us always of what our Lord suffered … Under Christian princes they endure a hard captivity, but "they only wait for the time of their deliverance."Popes, bishops, and preachers made it clear that the Jews of Europe were to be left unmolested. In a modern war, we call tragic deaths like these "collateral damage." Even with smart technologies, the United States has killed far more innocents in our wars than the Crusaders ever could. But no one would seriously argue that the purpose of American wars is to kill women and children.


    The crusade that Crusade that killed Jews against church decree was lead by emich- who was later denied entry past Hungary to continue crusade.
    Many faught against him, John bishop of speyer hid and saved Jews than after went and persecuted those crusaders who had killed Jews. Bishop rothard allowed Jews to enter refuge in mainz and was killed by mob for it.

    “Jews prior in germany were protected by the crown and local lords, they thrived along the rhine, some local bishops tried to protect the jews but many were killed all the same."
    p 18 The New Concise History of the Crusades Thomas F. Madden

    in mainz jews took refuge with the bishop in the palace, all were killed.
    p 18 The New Concise History of the Crusades Thomas F. Madden


    War between religions? Religious war? War of conversion?

    The war was not primarily between two religions, it was between two groups of people that happened to be of separate religions,not because they were separate by and large. The wars were because of a people group that attacked another,committed crimes such as rape murder etc and conquest tacking another groups land, than in response another people group, banned together and attacked the first group. No question there was religious nature to some motives, but had these been simply separate countries within western Europe or middle east, a war would have broken out. Many times christian in the holy lands allied with Muslims against other Christians,
    or aught to help Muslims against invading Christians and vice verse.


    [the crusaders]"even during the expedition to Jerusalem,they demonstrated a more malleable attitude towards Muslims, engaging in extensive negotiations with fatimids of Egypt, pursuing limited alliances with Muslim rulers of northern Syria like Omar of Azaz and happily formulating a series of admittedly exploitative truces with the emirs of southern Syria,Lebanon and Palestine. The evidence of this is intermittent, and to an extant our Latin sources seem keen to present the crusade as an intense and unbending religious conflict. In reality, contact may have been continuing on a completely different level. Raymond of Aguilers asserted that a Latin priest and visionary Evremar went to Muslim city of Tripoli to rest and recuperate during the latter stages of the siege of Antioch suggest that cross-cultural interaction may actually have been far more common than we know.
    P337-338 The first crusade Thomas Asbridge a new history the roots of conflict between Christianity and Islam 2004.


    " the distinction between holy war and pilgrimage was real. The crusades usually referred to themselves as "pilgrim" or "cross bearers".
    The New Concise History of the Crusades Thomas F. Madden p 10


    Muslims and christian held alliances at different times, even helping the others [both ways] fight against other Muslim or Christians.
    The New Concise History of the Crusades Thomas F. Madden

    many crusaders thought byzantine empire the true enemy of the west,not Islam
    The New Concise History of the Crusades Thomas F. Madden

    some crusaders committed rape,murder against other Christians.
    The New Concise History of the Crusades Thomas F. Madden

    king of Jerusalem Fredrick befriended and knighted Muslim emir Fakhr-ad-din.
    The New Concise History of the Crusades Thomas F. Madden

    Muslims/jews were allowed to practice their religion in crusader states,not a war of conversion.


    Jerusalem massacre during first crusade

    Many inhabitants were not killed but captured and ransomed others expelled from city. It was Common of time period after a siege that many would be killed in both Europe and Islam during the medieval time period. Records range from few hundred to 75,00 [city population only 20,00-30,000] "It is probable that anywhere from several hundred to 3,000 were slain by the crusaders" p 75 The glory of the crusades bt steve Weidenkompf. Reports of Blood flow as high as ankles? Those were biblical references to Rev 4.20 and Isiah 63.3

    Islam understanding of crusades
    The crusades were not a part of Muslim history after the retaking of the holy land, no books were written until 1899 when the first Arabic book on crusades written. For hundreds of years Muslims did not remember the crusades as a major event in Islamic history.



    Salem witch trials/ both man and woman.

    Even adjusting for changes in population size, atheist regimes are responsible for 100 times more death in one century than Christian rulers inflicted over five centuries.
    As for the Inquisition, much of the modern stereotype was largely made up by Spain’s political enemies, and later by anti-Christians. The Inquisition only had authority over professing Christians, and the Inquisition trials were often fairer and more lenient than their secular counterparts. Often the only penalty given was some sort of penance such as fasting. Over a period of 350 years, historians such as Henry Kamen estimate only between 1,500 and 4,000 people were executed for heresy.
    The Salem witch trials constitute the best-known example of religiously motivated violence. However, fewer than 25 people were killed in the trials, falling far short of the ‘perhaps hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions’ (p. 207) that the late anti theist Carl Sagan wrote about.
    Having shown that Christianity’s ‘religious crimes’ are far less horrendous than atheists would argue; he goes on to show that atheism, not religion, is responsible for mass murders. In fact, ‘atheist regimes have in a single century murdered more than one hundred million people’ (p. 214). Even adjusting for changes in population size, atheist regimes are responsible for 100 times more death in one century than Christian rulers inflicted over five centuries. However, while it can easily be shown that crimes committed in the name of Christianity are not sanctioned by its teaching, the bloodbaths of the atheist regimes are consistent with an atheist, evolutionary outlook. Indeed, atheists have no moral basis to say that anything is right or wrong


    witch trials

    #
    the Salem which trial was stopped by 3 priest that said to the governor of Massachusetts what they were doing was biblical and they were not following biblical principles on trials and evidence. The governor repented in church and called on Massachusetts for day of fasting and prayer to overt gods judgment.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dybHrSi4Now

    The Salem witch trials constitute the best-known example of religiously motivated violence. However, fewer than 25 people were killed in the trials, falling far short of the ‘perhaps hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions’ (p. 207) that the late antitheist Carl Sagan wrote about.

    20 years later the state paid restitution to the families.
    the story of Christianity volume 2. justo gonzales



    Inquisitions


    This is a attack on the catholic church and in part fueled the protestant reformation.


    medieval inquisitions


    Short history

    Started in 1184- bishops were sent to determine heretics in their area from the pope, to be done before secular law dealt with heretics [ burn at stake] as the secular law was not accurate to determine true faith. Between the years of 1200-1400 inquisitors would move from one place to another, later they would be set up in big cities and heretics would be brought to them. 1231 major Heresy in south of France that rejected Jesus divinity and humanity, but thought him a phantom. Said he did not die on the cross, purpose of life to free ourselves from bodies and highest form of worship suicide,the church reacted. First held councils and condemned the Heresy but it continued to spread rapid. Earlier pope sent missionaries to teach/preach and worked with secular rulers to help. Secular leader kills papal legate and pope calls crusade to destroy the Heresy.


    Worldview/ why heresy is bad

    Different worldview in this time period than today. Religion was everything at time and all society built around, it must be understood in their time period. Anything to disrupt belief, disrupts entire way of life. Christianity was united at the time in the catholic faith. Heresy was seen as active threat that seeked to convert. It was seen as a threat to the soul, violence follows heresy by dividing communities, secular leaders felt heresy a threat to their authority, it was a capital crime in secular law.

    For why heresy was taken so serious at the time read here
    http://www.basilica.org/pages/ebooks...rspective.html


    Purpose of the inquisitions medieval inquisitions.

    The inquisitions were formed to combat secular and church persecution of heretics. The Secular governments of the time offered no rights to the heretics and the penalty was capital punishment to be burned at stake. Mobs at time lynched heritics without trials.


    "In France, in 1430, the Inquisition was established by the authority of the Pope, as an orderly and judicial means of dealing with what was regarded as a terrible social and religious evil. Maycock writes: "In the thirteenth century the secular arm, as a rule, needed no encouragement in the vigorous prosecution of heresy. And, so far as the burning of heretics was concerned, the Inquisition was a damping factor rather than a driving force."Undoubtedly Vacandard is right when he says, 'Taking all in all, the Inquisition in its operation developed a real progress in the treatment of criminals; for it not only put an end to the vengeance of the mob, but it diminished considerably the number of others condemned to death.'
    Eustace Boylan, S.J. THE INQUISITION: IN THE LIGHT OF HISTORICAL PERSPECTIVE

    The Churches main goal was to save the soul of heretic, to protect unity of church and society. The main goal was to convert heretics, they wanted conversion not death of heretic. Inquisitors sent to show heretic why they were wrong and convert them. The inquisitors failed in there job if heretic was handed over to the state to be killed. Church was interested in saving the soul the state with punishment. Inquisitions effected only post baptism Catholics who had fallen from a major doctrine not after Jews/Muslims.


    In 1231 list of procedures for papal inquisitors to determine if heretics were in the faith. Inquisitors must be men of good faith and good morals and have theological training.


    How they operated

    Inquisitors come to a area announce they are their and give a grace period of 30-40 days, they teach/preach the faith. Were you can come confess and be brought back into the church.

    If after grace period evidence is gathered to bring to court they would be tried. Gather evidence everything said by defendant was recorded and written down, witness in defense of charged, if they are found guilty the inquisitors would try and show the heretic why they are wrong and why their soul is in danger,and try to bring them back.


    Torture

    torture originally not allowed. Allowed extensive in secular courts to bring about confession. Later when it was used it was optional,most did not want to use it. Most famous inquisitor bernard gui said not to use it it was not effective. It was very regulated on what could be done, inquisitors themselves could not use torture, they brought in secular ruler to do so under church regulated guidelines, always used to get confession/truth not a punishment. Only could be used once after all other options, a confession made in torture would be given a day of rest, than asked again if their confession was genuine.

    Catechism of the Catholic Church
    2298#In times past, cruel practices were commonly used by legitimate governments to maintain law and order, often without protest from the Pastors of the Church, who themselves adopted in their own tribunals the prescriptions of Roman law concerning torture. Regrettable as these facts are, the Church always taught the duty of clemency and mercy. She forbade clerics to shed blood. In recent times it has become evident that these cruel practices were neither necessary for public order, nor in conformity with the legitimate rights of the human person. On the contrary, these practices led to ones even more degrading. It is necessary to work for their abolition. We must pray for the victims and their tormentors.


    Punishments

    Punishments for heretics that confesses asked forgiveness were penance,fasting,wear special cloths [yellow with cross for period of time]give alms, go on pilgrimage[crusade]



    If heretic refuses

    And inquisitors cannot help, they give heretic over to the state. Death penalty from state often burn at stake.The catholic church never killed anyone, it was against cannon law to do so, they handed them over to the state.


    1227-1277 in fance 5,000 executed 100 a year.
    Bernard gui 16 years 930 judgments 42 given to state less than 5%

    most cases did not end in death of heretic.


    Spanish inquisitions

    context

    At the time there were Christians/Jews/Muslims all living in same land in southern Spain. Still had Muslim armies in southern Spain fighting against the Spanish crown. Many Muslim/Jewish converts to Catholicism. Many catholic citizens were worried that false converts would help Muslim armies invade cities and open gates to cities,give information to Muslims etc in 1478 Spanish government asked and was granted by pope to instilled inquisitions because of false rumors of false converts to help Muslims. The inquisitions Had support from the people of spain at the time, it was centered in cities outside city did not effect. Far less powerful and influncial than previously believed.


    “Really politics, the crown of Spain wanted to consolidate power in the south were the people were a threat to Spain's power.”
    The real story of the inquisitions steve weidenkopf teacher of church history at the notre dame graduate school of Christendom collage.


    "From the special problems with which Spain was confronted, and from the policy of the rulers, the Spanish Inquisitors were civil functionaries more than Church officials. "A fair way of putting the case is perhaps this" (says Eliza Atkins Stone, a Protestant writer): "The machinery of the Spanish Inquisition was mainly ecclesiastical; the Vatican had more or less voice in its management, but on the lever was always not the Papal, but the Royal hand." This much is beyond question: It began its career under the definite censure of the Holy See, and the latter, perturbed at its severity, constantly urged clemency. "
    Eustace Boylan, S.J. THE INQUISITION: IN THE LIGHT OF HISTORICAL PERSPECTIVE


    Spanish inquisitions details

    Used only on baptized christian, under royal not papal control, pope once sent letters to try and stop crimes done by the crown during Spanish inquisitions.

    They would set up area and preach/teach for a period of grace for 30-40 days for heretics to confess and be forgiven. Than trial ,evidence, if found enough evidence to bring to trial, the defendant was placed in jail, a church jail [much better conditions than secular] defendant were allowed advocates [lawyer] allowed to give list of people who hated them that might lie to get you in trouble, they would not be allowed to testify against you.


    Torture

    In secular courts it was used regularity, in inquisitions Was rarely used, it was used in less than 2% of cases. it could only be used once , it was recorded, a bishop,witnesses,doctors must all be present. Limited to 15 minutes, if a confession is made they were given a day then re-asked.


    Punishments

    fine or prison [ often house arrest or monastery house] ,sometimes had to wear a yellow shirt with cross, sometimes flogging.

    If they wont confess and are guilty

    handed over to state often burned on stake. Most all cases did not end in secular death penalty.

    "Fewer than 2% of total tried received the death penalty. During the 16th and 17th century fewer than three persons a year were but to death from Sicily to puru,a lower rate than any court in Spain or Europe, secular courts had higher rate of death penalty."
    The Spanish Inquisition: A Historical Revision#Paperbackby#Henry Kamen


    "less than three people per year were sentenced to death by the Inquisition throughout the Spanish Empire, which ranged from Spain to Sicily and Peru. Secular historians given access to the Vatican’s archives in 1998 discovered that of the 44,674 individuals tried between 1540 and 1700, only 804 were recorded as being#relictus culiae saeculari. The 763-page report indicates that only 1 percent of the 125,000 trials recorded over the entire inquisition ultimately resulted in execution by the secular authority, which means that throughout its infamous 345-year history, the dread Spanish Inquisition was less than one-fourteenth as deadly on an annual basis as children’s bicycles.
    for the history and what led up to the Inquisitions.
    http://www.wnd.com/2008/02/56045/



    1480-1530 the height of Spanish inquisitions 2,000 executed 40 a year.
    Over 350 years entire time 4,000 in spain.

    "taking into account all the tribunals of spain up till 1530, it is unlikely that more than 2,000 people were executed"
    The Spanish Inquisition: A Historical Revision#Paperbackby#Henry Kamen


    Compare with the 6,832 members of the Catholic clergy murdered in the Spanish Republican Red Terror of 1936 is more than twice the number of the victims of 345 years of inquisition.



    Result
    spain had religious peace- religious wars in europe, spain free from that.


    "A renowned historian here presents a new view of the notorious Spanish Inquisition, arguing that there was less terror, bigotry, and persecution associated with it than has been previously believed. Based on thirty years of research, the book will revolutionize further study in the field."
    http://www.amazon.com/The-Spanish-In.../dp/0300078803



    Total deaths from inquisitions in history all countries.

    slight less than 10,000.
    done by church 0
    done by state 10,000

    compared with the athistic french revolution that persecuted catholis over 3 years death total
    Guillotined, 17,000; shot at Toulon, 2000; drowned at Mantes, men, women, and children, 4800. Then there were the murders by the mob about 10,000 were killed without trial in the province of Anjou alone.

    Compare with the 6,832 members of the Catholic clergy murdered in the Spanish Republican Red Terror of 1936 is more than twice the number of the victims of 345 years of inquisition.


    "Even adjusting for changes in population size, atheist regimes are responsible for 100 times more death in one century than Christian rulers inflicted over five centuries.As for the Inquisition, much of the modern stereotype was largely made up by Spain’s political enemies, and later by anti-Christians. The Inquisition only had authority over professing Christians, and the Inquisition trials were often fairer and more lenient than their secular counterparts. Often the only penalty given was some sort of penance such as fasting. Over a period of 350 years, historians such as Henry Kamen15 estimate only between 1,500 and 4,000 people were executed for heresy."






    14- God sent plagues,even ones that killed babies such as the ten plagues of Egypt.How could a loving god do that?

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    sometimes a movie can help make it more real. They can help better picture real life. A movie i think that would acuratly dipict gods use of plagues in bible would be

    the reaping
    http://www.amazon.com/Reaping-Hilary...es-tvHYPERLINK


    The opposite of love is not anger,but hate. The opposite of love is not anger,but hate. God is angry at things that destroy his creation and his love for us.
    If God Weren't Angry...
    http://www.christianpost.com/news/if...t-angry-80980/


    Assumptions/things to consider before answering.

    Atheist must put themselves in place as god, as perfect judge of people living thousands of years ago, to decided what is morally correct or not.
    1] we must assume we are god, that only we can tell and know what is morally acceptable or not.
    2] we must assume their are such things as morals, “right” and “wrong” those ideas only make sense if a moral god created us.
    3]we must assume our evolved brains of completely random chemical reactions and matter can somehow have the right idea of what is right and wrong, our evolved animal brains formed by random chemical reactions and matter [dirt] that combined for a survival advantage[according to atheist]. They only “feel” killing is wrong because the random chemical reactions give them a chemical feeling that killing is wrong.
    https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showth...ity&highlight=

    is god not able to take life he has given?


    God saved is-real out of Egypt as a act of judgment ex 6 6-7


    So Pharaoh commanded all his people, saying, “Every son who is born you shall cast into the river [Nile]
    exodus 1.22a


    “When you serve as midwife to the Hebrew women and see them on the birthstool, if it is a son, you shall kill him, but if it is a daughter, she shall live
    exodus 1.16

    They called out in a loud voice, “How long,#Sovereign Lord,#holy and true,#until you judge the inhabitants of the earth#and avenge our blood?”#
    revelations 6.10.

    Egypt itself had many chances -- 200 years for the Pharaoh to stop enslaving the people; 200 years for the people of Egypt to show their own mercies on a personal basis. Pharaoh ordered the killings of all male Jewish babies before the plagues ex 1.22 he was afraid they would become to numerous and attack Egypt also ex 1.16. Israel was in slavery for hundreds of years under Egypt and mistreated, if you were in that situation you would say the opposite why does god not do anything, many Israelite were killed by Egyptians, babies included by starvation, Egypt was guilty of slavery and mass murder of innocent children

    The ten plagues were sent to show Egypt and everyone that there was one true god and they were worshiping false gods,every plague was aimed at showing there gods false they worshiped the Nile river, frogs, cows and pharaoh there greatest ex 7.5 9.14 9.29 10 16-19. So the plagues showed that pharaoh was not a god and following him would lead to death. Egyptians started believing in god after 6th plague ex 9.20 and were spared from the rest of the plagues,some started asking pharaoh to let isareal go ex 10.7
    Many Egyptians joined Israel and went out of Egypt with the Israelite s. Any Egyptian who put the blood of the lahm [Jesus] on the doorpost was passed-over and no one was killed, the blood of the lahm is what distinguished believers from non believers. They had no reason to reject god after the first 9 plagues so they willingly disobeyed him on the tenth and received judgment showing there was nothing special about pharaoh or any firstborn individual. pharaoh allowed this to happen, he could have let Israel go the 9 times before. God was willing and wanting to relent from sending the plagues at any time ex 10 13-14,19 10 16-19 other verses as well. If pharaoh asked god stopped the plagues 8.15 8.29-32. God was relenting from more severe punishment and was using plagues to show he is god. No Egyptians were innocent as they allowed slavery for hundreds of years and not untill the last plagues did the people ask pharaoh to let Israel go. Also Egyptians all were guilty against god for sin by the slavery of Israel and mistreatment.anyone who tried to destroy or breakup or stop isreal and gods plan of salvation through messiah will receive judgment this is throughout the bible. It is a jewish principle pick the better of two bads, death of messiah all go to hell or death of pharaoh firstborn and others who get in way of gods plan of salvation every plague pharaoh could have let Israel go but chose not to.

    Context is everything in biblical interpretation.# The ancient Egyptians served many false gods.# The Plagues that were set upon the people of Egypt were relative to the gods of the land demonstrating that God was the true God and that their gods were weak, ineffective, and false.
    Plague of Turning the Nile to blood, Exodus 7:14-25.# Isis was the Egyptian god of the Nile. Khnum was the guardian of the Nile.
    Plague of Frogs, Exodus 8:1-5.# Heget was the goddess of birth and had the head of a frog.
    Plague of Gnats, Exodus 8:16-19.# Set was the god of the desert.
    Flies, Exodus 8:20-32.# Re was the sun god.# Uatchit was a god possibly represented by the fly.
    Death of Livestock, Exodus 9:1-7.# Hathor, goddess with a cow's head.# Apis was the bull god.#
    Boils, Exodus 9:8-12.# Sekmet goddess that had power over disease.# Sunu, the god of pestilence.
    Hail, Exodus 9:13-35.# Nut, the goddess of the sky.# Set god of storms.
    Locusts, Exodus 10:1-20.# Osiris, god of crops.
    Darkness, Exodus 10:21-29.# Re, the sun god.# Horus, a sun god.# Hathor, sky goddess.
    Death of firstborn, Exodus 11:1 - 12:30.# Min, god of reproduction.# Isis, goddess who protected children.# Pharaoh, considered a god.1
    http://www.inplainsite.org/html/firs....NCVci5Qa.dpuf


    firstborns
    only god is perfect judge

    god judges by what is deserved based on crimes jer 50.29 ps 137. 8,15 Isiah 40.2. God is judge of man, does not order killing out of malice or lawlessness Deuteronomy 32.4.

    -god killed firstborns in Egypt witch would than go to heaven.


    The bible says all are born into sin we are all sinful and all babies are sinners and will grow up like the rest of us and be sinners . You wont have to teach a child to steal,hate,hit,greed etc you will have to spend a lifetime teaching them not to. However the plagues were not sent because of babies. God did not kill them but pharaohs sin against god and the Egyptians. Had the babies kids of Egypt grown up in Egypt worshiping pharaoh they may have missed out on eternity,look at numbers 14 28-33 for this with isreal,kids indirectly suffer for the sins of the parents.When an abusive father kills his child in a fit of rage, the child dies BECAUSE of the SINS of the FATHER, but the child is not being PUNISHED by being killed. When a child dies of an illness caused by neglect of a parent, they die BECAUSE (somewhat, at least) of the SINS of the parent, but their death would not be considered as a PUNISHMENT on the child for the neglect of the parent. It would be a CONSEQUENCE of the sin, but not a ‘punishment’ per se.The Exodus story involves a corporate or national punishment, and in these cases—including the famines and plagues that later came upon Biblical Israel for their evil—both innocent and guilty suffer. Similarly, when a nation or group is blessed by God for goodness of values and action and direction, both deserving and undeserving benefit.
    http://christianthinktank.com/killheir.html


    the babies were being taken away from a evil world and a evil culture.

    The righteous perishes, And no man takes it to heart; Merciful men are taken away, While no one considers That the righteous is taken away from evil.
    Isa. 57:1

    So while we may view death as always bad, god in certain circumstances may not
    when believers die it is precious in the lords sight,because they enter into a true relationship with him with no sin or separation
    psalm 116.15


    God sees the heart of man, Hitler was once a baby and would look innocent though god would know his heart and know he would grow up to become a monster.
    7 For the LORD does not see as man sees for man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart."
    1 Samuel 16.7


    20 Then Noah built an altar to the Lord and, taking some of all the clean animals and clean birds, he sacrificed burnt offerings on it. 21 The Lord smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: “Never again will I curse the ground because of humans, even though every inclination of the human heart is evil from childhood. And never again will I destroy all living creatures, as I have done.
    genisis 8 20-21


    I like a point a friend of mine made about this. One Skeptic asked why God simply did not kill Hitler as a baby. Yet if "baby Hitler" had died, the Skeptic would ask why God did not prevent the death of this innocent baby. This shows that a far more critical view is needed than "argument by outrage." Indeed, "argument by outrage" often assumes a form of omniscience by the critic.


    but why should we take seriously the skeptic’s advocacy for Canaanite children? Doesn’t the new atheist’s complaint ring hollow, since they are often at the forefront of defending a woman’s right to suction, dismember, or scald to death her unborn baby at any time and for any reason?
    http://www.equip.org/articles/killing-the-canaanites/

    abortion is just a modern version of child sacrifice.
    Last edited by total relism; 02-25-2015 at 19:12.
    “Its been said that when human beings stop believing in god they believe in nothing. The truth is much worse, they believe in anything.” Malcolm maggeridge

    The simple believes every word: but the prudent man looks well to his going. Proverbs -14.15
    The first to present his case seems right,till another comes forward and questions him -Proverbs 18.17

    In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
    Genesis 1.1

  2. #2

    Default Re: responding to common objections to bible part 5

    abortion is just a modern version of child sacrifice.
    Full-disclosure: this is all I read of the post, but...



    When will you realize that God is dead, TR? And he is not only dead, but undead.

    God is a suicidal zombie. He feeds upon the universe, and He feeds upon himself! Yet he can not die, as He is already dead, and His power is not greater than His power. Though He has none whatsoever, he is also omnipotent, and so the World is destroyed and remade, instant by instant.

    Furthermore, He is present in the mind of each one of us, and therein He constitutes an Ouroboros of Ignorance. He is the understanding which destroys understanding, and traps us within the ultimate recursive regression.

    God help us all.
    Vitiate Man.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

  3. #3

    Default Re: responding to common objections to bible part 5

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    Full-disclosure: this is all I read of the post, but...



    When will you realize that God is dead, TR? And he is not only dead, but undead.

    God is a suicidal zombie. He feeds upon the universe, and He feeds upon himself! Yet he can not die, as He is already dead, and His power is not greater than His power. Though He has none whatsoever, he is also omnipotent, and so the World is destroyed and remade, instant by instant.

    Furthermore, He is present in the mind of each one of us, and therein He constitutes an Ouroboros of Ignorance. He is the understanding which destroys understanding, and traps us within the ultimate recursive regression.

    God help us all.

    how did you just pick that part out buried so deep in my post and not read anything else?........lol

    the rest well, i can honestly say i have no idea what your saying. Do you have anything on topic to say?.
    “Its been said that when human beings stop believing in god they believe in nothing. The truth is much worse, they believe in anything.” Malcolm maggeridge

    The simple believes every word: but the prudent man looks well to his going. Proverbs -14.15
    The first to present his case seems right,till another comes forward and questions him -Proverbs 18.17

    In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
    Genesis 1.1

  4. #4
    Ni dieu ni maître! Senior Member a completely inoffensive name's Avatar
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    Default Re: responding to common objections to bible part 5

    I hope this is the thread that everyone finally decides not to take the bait.
    In all these papers we see a love of honest work, an aversion to shams, a caution in the enunciation of conclusions, a distrust of rash generalizations and speculations based on uncertain premises. He was never anxious to add one more guess on doubtful matters in the hope of hitting the truth, or what might pass as such for a time, but was always ready to take infinite pains in the most careful testing of every theory. With these qualities was united a modesty which forbade the pushing of his own claims and desired no reputation except the unsought tribute of competent judges.

  5. #5

    Default Re: responding to common objections to bible part 5

    Quote Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name View Post
    I hope this is the thread that everyone finally decides not to take the bait.

    when fish are schooling, they usually take debate.........lol

    just wondering what your thinking im going to do to those who post? did not know i had that much power/influence.
    “Its been said that when human beings stop believing in god they believe in nothing. The truth is much worse, they believe in anything.” Malcolm maggeridge

    The simple believes every word: but the prudent man looks well to his going. Proverbs -14.15
    The first to present his case seems right,till another comes forward and questions him -Proverbs 18.17

    In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
    Genesis 1.1

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    Ni dieu ni maître! Senior Member a completely inoffensive name's Avatar
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    Default Re: responding to common objections to bible part 5

    Quote Originally Posted by total relism View Post
    when fish are schooling, they usually take debate.........lol

    just wondering what your thinking im going to do to those who post? did not know i had that much power/influence.
    Can I ask you a question?
    In all these papers we see a love of honest work, an aversion to shams, a caution in the enunciation of conclusions, a distrust of rash generalizations and speculations based on uncertain premises. He was never anxious to add one more guess on doubtful matters in the hope of hitting the truth, or what might pass as such for a time, but was always ready to take infinite pains in the most careful testing of every theory. With these qualities was united a modesty which forbade the pushing of his own claims and desired no reputation except the unsought tribute of competent judges.

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    smell the glove Senior Member Major Robert Dump's Avatar
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    Default Re: responding to common objections to bible part 5

    #15:
    Why are there hordes of muslim begging rackets working outside the Cross of Magellan monument in Catholic Central, Cebu City, Philippines. Does God have a sense of irony?
    Baby Quit Your Cryin' Put Your Clown Britches On!!!

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    Default Re: responding to common objections to bible part 5

    Quote Originally Posted by Major Robert Dump View Post
    #15:
    Why are there hordes of muslim begging rackets working outside the Cross of Magellan monument in Catholic Central, Cebu City, Philippines. Does God have a sense of irony?
    not sure what your asking?why is there death and suffering? why is gods will not done? why are there Muslims?. Please just type clearly what your asking sir,thanks.
    “Its been said that when human beings stop believing in god they believe in nothing. The truth is much worse, they believe in anything.” Malcolm maggeridge

    The simple believes every word: but the prudent man looks well to his going. Proverbs -14.15
    The first to present his case seems right,till another comes forward and questions him -Proverbs 18.17

    In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
    Genesis 1.1

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    Default Re: responding to common objections to bible part 5

    Quote Originally Posted by total relism View Post
    not sure what your asking?why is there death and suffering? why is gods will not done? why are there Muslims?. Please just type clearly what your asking sir,thanks.
    Why are you not accepting of all people? Why are you prejudiced against different religious groups? Doesn't your Lord and saviour preach acceptance? Why aren't you following your Lord? Why are you an advocate of hate?

    Answer these first, WITHOUT redirecting me to the OP, pasting a huge copy-pasta or telling me to wait for another future thread.

    By the way, these questions are directed at YOU, not your religion. I would like YOUR answer.


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    smell the glove Senior Member Major Robert Dump's Avatar
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    Default Re: responding to common objections to bible part 5

    Quote Originally Posted by total relism View Post
    not sure what your asking?why is there death and suffering? why is gods will not done? why are there Muslims?. Please just type clearly what your asking sir,thanks.
    Let me restate.

    Muslims. Criminals. Hustlers. Operating at a major Christian Historical Landmark, fleecing visiting worshippers.

    Is God Ironic?
    Baby Quit Your Cryin' Put Your Clown Britches On!!!

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    Default Re: responding to common objections to bible part 5

    Quote Originally Posted by spankythehippo View Post
    Why are you not accepting of all people? Why are you prejudiced against different religious groups? Doesn't your Lord and saviour preach acceptance? Why aren't you following your Lord? Why are you an advocate of hate?

    Answer these first, WITHOUT redirecting me to the OP, pasting a huge copy-pasta or telling me to wait for another future thread.

    By the way, these questions are directed at YOU, not your religion. I would like YOUR answer.
    not sure what this has to do with topic,you dont seem very accepting of my beliefs either.


    but fair enough.

    "Why are you not accepting of all people? Why are you prejudiced against different religious groups? Doesn't your Lord and saviour preach acceptance? Why aren't you following your Lord? Why are you an advocate of hate?"


    i have no idea were your getting that i am somehow not accepting of people,i want everyone to be saved and go to haven. I accept all humans, not all actions. I dont accept that multiple truths can exist, 2 plus 2 cannot be both 4 and 76. There can be only one truth and i hope all find it. i like to think i am very tolerant of all.
    “Its been said that when human beings stop believing in god they believe in nothing. The truth is much worse, they believe in anything.” Malcolm maggeridge

    The simple believes every word: but the prudent man looks well to his going. Proverbs -14.15
    The first to present his case seems right,till another comes forward and questions him -Proverbs 18.17

    In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
    Genesis 1.1

  12. #12

    Default Re: responding to common objections to bible part 5

    Quote Originally Posted by Major Robert Dump View Post
    Let me restate.

    Muslims. Criminals. Hustlers. Operating at a major Christian Historical Landmark, fleecing visiting worshippers.

    Is God Ironic?

    no, but man is sinful,just like in jesus day the temple[ the most holy thing in world in his day] was full of even "believers" and "religious leaders" who were using the temple as a way for financial gain etc. Jesus said of it

    He said to them, “It is written, ‘My house shall be called a house of prayer,’ but you make it a den of robbers.”
    matt 21.13


    but im not sure why this is problem for you,or what it has to do with topic.
    Last edited by total relism; 08-23-2013 at 10:44.
    “Its been said that when human beings stop believing in god they believe in nothing. The truth is much worse, they believe in anything.” Malcolm maggeridge

    The simple believes every word: but the prudent man looks well to his going. Proverbs -14.15
    The first to present his case seems right,till another comes forward and questions him -Proverbs 18.17

    In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
    Genesis 1.1

  13. #13
    Do you want to see my big Member spankythehippo's Avatar
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    Default Re: responding to common objections to bible part 5

    Quote Originally Posted by total relism View Post
    not sure what this has to do with topic,you dont seem very accepting of my beliefs either.


    but fair enough.

    "Why are you not accepting of all people? Why are you prejudiced against different religious groups? Doesn't your Lord and saviour preach acceptance? Why aren't you following your Lord? Why are you an advocate of hate?"


    i have no idea were your getting that i am somehow not accepting of people,i want everyone to be saved and go to haven. I accept all humans, not all actions. I dont accept that multiple truths can exist, 2 plus 2 cannot be both 4 and 76. There can be only one truth and i hope all find it. i like to think i am very tolerant of all.
    I am getting that you are not accepting of people from your previous threads.

    "i want everyone to be saved and go to haven".

    I'm sure a lot of fundamentalists have the same thought. Does that make them good people with good intentions?

    "I dont accept that multiple truths can exist, 2 plus 2 cannot be both 4 and 76. There can be only one truth and i hope all find it."

    What makes you think that you know the truth? What makes anyone know what's the truth, when we are clearly in no power to deduce such things? We can't even solve our current problems, and yet we dream of salvation. If you are so wise (or any preacher of God, for that matter), why don't you propose a solution to all of the Earth's problems, so that our transition to heaven is a smooth one? Do that, and I will believe. If not, then pardon me while I make my existence on Earth tolerable.

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    Default Re: responding to common objections to bible part 5

    Quote Originally Posted by spankythehippo View Post
    I am getting that you are not accepting of people from your previous threads.

    "i want everyone to be saved and go to haven".

    I'm sure a lot of fundamentalists have the same thought. Does that make them good people with good intentions?

    "I dont accept that multiple truths can exist, 2 plus 2 cannot be both 4 and 76. There can be only one truth and i hope all find it."

    What makes you think that you know the truth? What makes anyone know what's the truth, when we are clearly in no power to deduce such things? We can't even solve our current problems, and yet we dream of salvation. If you are so wise (or any preacher of God, for that matter), why don't you propose a solution to all of the Earth's problems, so that our transition to heaven is a smooth one? Do that, and I will believe. If not, then pardon me while I make my existence on Earth tolerable.

    what previous thread?islam?.


    I would think so why not?




    a future thread will share the reasons i believe the bible is the truth. I think truth is knowable,in fact you asume things to be true to type to me. That i am a real person,that i will respond,that i understand what your saying etc. the reason we cant solve our problems is because we need salvation and a savior. jesus is the solution to earth problems [please read thread on why is there death and suffering].
    “Its been said that when human beings stop believing in god they believe in nothing. The truth is much worse, they believe in anything.” Malcolm maggeridge

    The simple believes every word: but the prudent man looks well to his going. Proverbs -14.15
    The first to present his case seems right,till another comes forward and questions him -Proverbs 18.17

    In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
    Genesis 1.1

  15. #15
    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: responding to common objections to bible part 5

    I'm designing a unit for my students on how to create a proper argument, judging sources, referencing, consistency and all that. I plan to include a few lessons on horror stories of how not to do it.

    This thread should be a goldmine.

    EDIT: I did find it extremely interesting that the OP states plainly that taking it's morally acceptable to take a life to "save a person from evil". If that's not the sign of a psychopath in the making, I don't know what is.
    Last edited by HoreTore; 08-23-2013 at 13:07.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  16. #16

    Default Re: responding to common objections to bible part 5

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore View Post
    I'm designing a unit for my students on how to create a proper argument, judging sources, referencing, consistency and all that. I plan to include a few lessons on horror stories of how not to do it.

    This thread should be a goldmine.
    by all means teacher, could you please give me a few tips, i would enjoy the help very much.
    “Its been said that when human beings stop believing in god they believe in nothing. The truth is much worse, they believe in anything.” Malcolm maggeridge

    The simple believes every word: but the prudent man looks well to his going. Proverbs -14.15
    The first to present his case seems right,till another comes forward and questions him -Proverbs 18.17

    In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
    Genesis 1.1

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    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: responding to common objections to bible part 5

    Quote Originally Posted by total relism View Post
    by all means teacher, could you please give me a few tips, i would enjoy the help very much.
    This would be a good start. I haven't read it myself, as my books on methodology have been centered on my profession as opposed to a dicipline, but I hear it's good.

    It's a general book on methodology, and so if you want to delve deeper into single methods, I highly recommend Jon Elster's book on methodological individualism.

    And stay away from anyone who sounds French.

    Still, the most important thing is to stop listening to uneducated people.
    Last edited by HoreTore; 08-23-2013 at 13:30.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

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    Dragonslayer Emeritus Senior Member Yankee Go Home Champion Sigurd's Avatar
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    Default Re: responding to common objections to bible part 5

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore View Post
    Still, the most important thing is to stop listening to uneducated people.
    Right, Mr. Montanus...
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    Default Re: responding to common objections to bible part 5

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore View Post
    This would be a good start. I haven't read it myself, as my books on methodology have been centered on my profession as opposed to a dicipline, but I hear it's good.

    It's a general book on methodology, and so if you want to delve deeper into single methods, I highly recommend Jon Elster's book on methodological individualism.

    And stay away from anyone who sounds French.

    Still, the most important thing is to stop listening to uneducated people.
    oh, you made it seem you were a professor,i was just looking for a few tips that all. Though i did not know i was handing in a paper to be graded. Thanks for book references, but in all honesty the chances of me getting and reading are almost 0%. Time is the problem really.
    “Its been said that when human beings stop believing in god they believe in nothing. The truth is much worse, they believe in anything.” Malcolm maggeridge

    The simple believes every word: but the prudent man looks well to his going. Proverbs -14.15
    The first to present his case seems right,till another comes forward and questions him -Proverbs 18.17

    In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
    Genesis 1.1

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    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: responding to common objections to bible part 5

    Quote Originally Posted by total relism View Post
    oh, you made it seem you were a professor,i was just looking for a few tips that all. Though i did not know i was handing in a paper to be graded. Thanks for book references, but in all honesty the chances of me getting and reading are almost 0%. Time is the problem really.
    These are the kind of books most members of these forums have read(or at the very least skimmed....). A methodology book is mandatory for any bachelor degree, and most poster here have at least that. Which one you read is based on your education, as there are different books for different fields and diciplines. In all honesty though the content is basically the same, it's just the context and examples they swap from book to book.

    If you're going on a quest to prove the world's leading intellectuals wrong, the first thing you need to do is make sure you understand methodology(a key ingredient in critical thinking).
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  21. #21

    Default Re: responding to common objections to bible part 5

    thank you, i will reconsider the books.

    you did say my post was a goldmine for a way not to, i was just looking for some helpful tips to avoid,or do in future post,could you help?.
    Last edited by total relism; 08-23-2013 at 14:07.
    “Its been said that when human beings stop believing in god they believe in nothing. The truth is much worse, they believe in anything.” Malcolm maggeridge

    The simple believes every word: but the prudent man looks well to his going. Proverbs -14.15
    The first to present his case seems right,till another comes forward and questions him -Proverbs 18.17

    In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
    Genesis 1.1

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    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: responding to common objections to bible part 5

    Quote Originally Posted by total relism View Post
    thank you, i will reconsider the books.

    you did say my post was a goldmine for a way not to, i was just looking for some helpful tips to avoid,or do in future post,could you help?.
    I and several others(like PVC) has gone down that road before, and since none of it seems to sink in any way, I find it hard to motivate myself to do it again. I can't really be bothered to anything other than to say "get yourself an education".

    The errors are huge, from the common misconception of "theory is the opposite of fact", instead of "theory is the opposite of practice" and up.
    Last edited by HoreTore; 08-23-2013 at 14:18.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  23. #23

    Default Re: responding to common objections to bible part 5

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore View Post
    I and several others(like PVC) has gone down that road before, and since none of it seems to sink in any way, I find it hard to motivate myself to do it again. I can't really be bothered to anything other than to say "get yourself an education".

    The errors are huge, from the common misconception of "theory is the opposite of fact", instead of "theory is the opposite of practice" and up.

    so no help than? well do you disagree with op for any reason or want to object to material [weather presented properly or not]?.
    “Its been said that when human beings stop believing in god they believe in nothing. The truth is much worse, they believe in anything.” Malcolm maggeridge

    The simple believes every word: but the prudent man looks well to his going. Proverbs -14.15
    The first to present his case seems right,till another comes forward and questions him -Proverbs 18.17

    In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
    Genesis 1.1

  24. #24
    Senior Member Senior Member naut's Avatar
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    Default Re: responding to common objections to bible part 5

    Quote Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name View Post
    I hope this is the thread that everyone finally decides not to take the bait.
    #Hillary4prism

    BD:TW

    Some piously affirm: "The truth is such and such. I know! I see!"
    And hold that everything depends upon having the “right” religion.
    But when one really knows, one has no need of religion. - Mahavyuha Sutra

    Freedom necessarily involves risk. - Alan Watts

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    Default Re: responding to common objections to bible part 5

    Quote Originally Posted by total relism View Post
    so no help than? well do you disagree with op for any reason or want to object to material [weather presented properly or not]?.
    Sigh..... Okay, I'll bite. A fundamental principle when building an argument, is that the counter-argument is represented honestly, fully and in the spirit of those who would voice that argument. Failing to do so means that one fails to actually engage with the argument at all, and the attempted counter-argument simply becomes an isolated statement.

    When you write the following....

    Assumptions/things to consider before answering.

    Atheist must put themselves in place as god, as perfect judge of people living thousands of years ago, to decided what is morally correct or not.
    1] we must assume we are god, that only we can tell and know what is morally acceptable or not.
    2] we must assume their are such things as morals, “right” and “wrong” those ideas only make sense if a moral god created us.
    3]we must assume our evolved brains of completely random chemical reactions and matter can somehow have the right idea of what is right and wrong, our evolved animal brains formed by random chemical reactions and matter [dirt] that combined for a survival advantage[according to atheist]. They only “feel” killing is wrong because the random chemical reactions give them a chemical feeling that killing is wrong.
    ....you massively break that rule. You fail to represent the argument you are trying to counter in a proper way, and so your attempt isn't a counter-argument at all.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  26. #26

    Default Re: responding to common objections to bible part 5

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore View Post
    Sigh..... Okay, I'll bite. A fundamental principle when building an argument, is that the counter-argument is represented honestly, fully and in the spirit of those who would voice that argument. Failing to do so means that one fails to actually engage with the argument at all, and the attempted counter-argument simply becomes an isolated statement.

    When you write the following....



    ....you massively break that rule. You fail to represent the argument you are trying to counter in a proper way, and so your attempt isn't a counter-argument at all.

    I agree with you 100%, but i am purposely looking for a fight here.that is what i come on here for, others to argue against my position. I as you, want to hear the objections,But as for what you quoted, there are no counters that deal with what i said, i have tried this before on thread and others [https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...ty&highlight=] if i new of any that countered/refuted it, i would not post it. I have watched plenty of philosophical debates on this subject with top atheist, you wont find a response that deals with it, often straw man or no understanding what is said, that is if we start with atheistic assumptions of life. I agree i have not offered responses,but how many thread do you see here that do so in op?.
    Last edited by total relism; 08-23-2013 at 18:19.
    “Its been said that when human beings stop believing in god they believe in nothing. The truth is much worse, they believe in anything.” Malcolm maggeridge

    The simple believes every word: but the prudent man looks well to his going. Proverbs -14.15
    The first to present his case seems right,till another comes forward and questions him -Proverbs 18.17

    In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
    Genesis 1.1

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    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: responding to common objections to bible part 5

    Then you have not only failed to properly represent the argument of the other side, you have also completely failed to grasp their argument.

    As such there is absolutely no grounds for a discussion.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  28. #28

    Default Re: responding to common objections to bible part 5

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore View Post
    Then you have not only failed to properly represent the argument of the other side, you have also completely failed to grasp their argument.

    As such there is absolutely no grounds for a discussion.

    as sated, there argument does not deal with what i said, feel free to post here if you disagree, or your misrepresenting my side. In fact you ask the same question and agree with my on one of your own threads
    Why is it wrong to take pleasure in the misfortunes of others?
    https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...ers&highlight=

    you throughout agree with me, no absolute morals or right and wrong, you even agree with a poster saying just what my thread was on last post.


    Btw could you show me a thread you have represented the other side in your op?. reading through your recent thread started, i would say gives many examples of you not representing the other side.

    https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/searc...earchid=106568


    i read first 4 and zimmerman and woman seem the perfect example as well as Dyslexia of not doing what you claim i should do. In fact reading more it becomes very clear this is your practice,i dont mind at all, but you should apply your own ideas to yourself before criticizing others. Also my post assume the others arguments, god sent plagues that killed people/babies so he is evil, that is a argument, god unjustly punishes people for there fathers sin,that is a argument, i give the counter etc.



    i think its clear your being a vague as possible and avoiding a discussion on any topic given.
    Last edited by total relism; 08-23-2013 at 20:21.
    “Its been said that when human beings stop believing in god they believe in nothing. The truth is much worse, they believe in anything.” Malcolm maggeridge

    The simple believes every word: but the prudent man looks well to his going. Proverbs -14.15
    The first to present his case seems right,till another comes forward and questions him -Proverbs 18.17

    In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
    Genesis 1.1

  29. #29
    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: responding to common objections to bible part 5

    What a delightful showing of not understanding. Representing two arguments are necessary when concluding, something I very rarely do. I'll go through the threads you found one by one:

    First off, the thread taking pleasure in the misfortunes of others: I posted one argument, one I do not agree with myself, in order to get good counter-arguments.

    Dyslexia: the OP is a scam, my point with that thread is dealt with way down in the thread. It's deliberately provocative, and my actual point is radically different from the OP. In retrospect, I failed massively with that thread, but that's besides the point.

    Women: I assume you refer to the woman-bashing thread? That's a commentary on a news article I found interesting, which I copied and posted here to see what others made of it. It should be obvious that it's extremely far from my position.

    Zimmerman: a simple news post to get a discussion on the topic going(not realizing it was already underway in another thread).

    My motivation for posting is radically different from yours: you come here "knowing the truth" and you're trying to convince others. As such, it is vitally important that you understand both sides of the issue which you have demonstrated(through your nonsense about "atheist morality") you do not. Who wants to discuss with someone who is fully convinced he is right, without knowing what the other side is talking about?

    When I, and thankfully a lot of others, start threads here, I do so because of an acknowledged lack of knowledge and/or understanding of the thread topic. I post to be informed, and have zero interest in convincing others about anything.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

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    Do you want to see my big Member spankythehippo's Avatar
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    Default Re: responding to common objections to bible part 5

    Quote Originally Posted by total relism View Post
    I agree with you 100%, but i am purposely looking for a fight here.
    Hmmm. That doesn't seem very civil. Why can't you just let sleeping dogs lie? I bet when the entire world finally accepts each other, there will be people like you who are stirring fights among the people. Not very Christian of you.


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