Can the government compel you to provide someone a service against your will?

[a completely inoffensive name]

It is a personal issue because I actually know gay people. And they are not unclean, they are not gay by choice.

I don't tolerant blatant ignorance of someones identity. I have been personally criticized by people in the backroom when I attacked other members religiosity. But apparently, give Vuk the microphone and lets let him talk because it's "unfair" we just ridicule him all the time. Now we have a whole thread where Vuk tries to argue that sodomy laws back in the middle ages are relevant to criticise gays because of "unclean poop sex" since there is obviously no such thing as an anal cleansing nowadays. I mean every anal scene in porn has the males just COVERED in poop right?

There is no discussion with the Grand Wizard and there is no discussion with people who condemn self exploration with blanket black and white terms.

I have never respected you Vuk and this can be my first official infraction/ban for the year. I have seen too much suffering first hand to hear this garbage here.

[Vuk]

It is a personal issue because I actually know gay people.

First of all, thanks for making my day man! You are better than television.
Second of all, who cares if you know gay people? Why does that make it personal? I know gay as well...heck, everyone on earth probably knows somebody gay. I know pastry chefs, does that make their plight personal to me? I know plumbers, does that mean I should take the plight of plumbers personally?

And they are not unclean.

What exactly do you mean by unclean? If you literally mean "not clean", then so is everyone else. If you mean "unnatural and evil", then you are obviously not responding to me. All I said is a type of sex is unhealthy. Working in a sewer is unhealthy, but that doesn't mean I'd classify those who do as "unclean". That is a very loaded word that you injected into the conversation my friend, not me.

they are not gay by choice.

Of course you know this for a fact because you are a god who knows everything, right?

I don't tolerant blatant ignorance of someones identity.

Really? Like when you said "You are a backwards, uneducated, uncultured ****."?
If you will not 'tolerate' someone disagreeing with you on the definition of a word or concept, then why do you bother discussing it? Why not just gather about a big group of homies who think just like you are all pat each other on the back and affirm the common belief? Surely that would be less stressful for you.

I have been personally criticized by people in the backroom when I attacked other members religiosity.

You attack people's religion? My, my, I don't believe it! And tell me my excitable friend, were they doing the right things by attacking you personally, or being emotional, illogical buffoons? Food for thought.

Now we have a whole thread where Vuk tries to argue that sodomy laws back in the middle ages are relevant to criticise gays because of "unclean poop sex" since there is obviously no such thing as an anal cleansing nowadays.

Really? That was my argument? Wow, I guess the boogey monsters must have deleted where I posted that! lol
As far as I remember, I neither mentioned the middle ages, or condoned any sodomy law. I said there was a reason for sodomy laws; not that any particular sodomy law was ever properly implemented. I obviously, for instance, don't condone the capital punishment that went along with breaking most of those laws.
Sure, there are anal cleansings, but that does not remove the bacteria. If you do remove the bacteria, then you are gonna have major health problems and not be able to digest your food properly.
Ever hear of "Dirty Sanchez"? Clean, right? But of course, all these guys stop and cleanse their colon before sex (even though a massive amount of the gay male community loves random hook-ups with random strangers in random places at random times...let me guess, after they meet in the bathroom one tells the other "Hold on mate, let me cleanse my colon over the sink before you bugger me"). Be serious, we cannot even get teens to use condoms. You really think most gay men do a colon cleanse before they bugger?

I mean every anal scene in porn has the males just COVERED in poop right?

Well, I guess I will have to defer to your knowledge of gay porn, as I have had no experiences with it myself.

There is no discussion with the Grand Wizard and there is no discussion with people who condemn self exploration with blanket black and white terms.

The Grand Wizard? Oh, you mean the guy who blows up every time someone disagrees with him and refuses to actually answer their arguments? Yeah, I know what you mean...

I have never respected you Vuk

Is this supposed to be news or something?

this can be my first official infraction/ban for the year.

Actually, with the number of times you have behaved disrespectfully to other members this year, I think it says lots about the moderation here that this will be your first infraction.
(No offense mods who actually do your jobs, but a lot of your mates don't. Go ahead, give me an infraction for complaining. Better yet, wait to nab me on a technicality in another post...that is what you usually do)

I have seen too much suffering first hand to hear this garbage here.

Poor, poor you. You are breaking my heart here Mr. Victim Boy.
As a side note though, if you are trying to get someone's sympathy, maybe you should stop treating everyone you disagree with like crap. Tends to go a long way.

[a completely inoffensive name]

And tell me my excitable friend, were they doing the right things by attacking you personally, or being emotional, illogical buffoons?

They did the right thing.

Clean, right? But of course, all these guys stop and cleanse their colon before sex (even though a massive amount of the gay male community loves random hook-ups with random strangers in random places at random times...let me guess, after they meet in the bathroom one tells the other "Hold on mate, let me cleanse my colon over the sink before you bugger me"). Be serious, we cannot even get teens to use condoms. You really think most gay men do a colon cleanse before they bugger?

Most common location of sexual encounters between gay men happen in a house. And anal sex actually happens a lot less than you expect.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...438.x/abstract
"The most commonly reported behavior was kissing a partner on the mouth (74.5%), followed by oral sex (72.7%), and partnered masturbation (68.4%). Anal intercourse occurred among less than half of participants (37.2%) and was most common among men ages 18–24 (42.7%). "

Well, I guess I will have to defer to your knowledge of gay porn, as I have had no experiences with it myself.

Gay or straight porn bro. What are you so afraid of?

Actually, with the number of times you have behaved disrespectfully to other members this year, I think it says lots about the moderation here that this will be your first infraction.
(No offense mods who actually do your jobs, but a lot of your mates don't. Go ahead, give me an infraction for complaining. Better yet, wait to nab me on a technicality in another post...that is what you usually do)

I know how I act on here and I do not claim to deserve sympathy from anyone. I do not expect respect from anyone here and I would understand if starting tomorrow everyone stopped replying to anything I said. If I ask for sympathy it is up to everyone individually to give it and I appreciate it when it is given, even if I do not show it as well as I should.

As a side note though, if you are trying to get someone's sympathy, maybe you should stop treating everyone you disagree with like crap. Tends to go a long way.

I would rather be told by others to leave the org rather than engage in a polite conversation with you. My experiences are what they are. I won't abandon them just for the sake of keeping up appearances here.

If people have had enough of me, just tell me. Life is too short to deal with a hothead like me.

[PanzerJaeger]

Vuk - Do you believe that sexual attraction is a conscious choice? If you needed to be attracted to men for some reason, could you will it to happen? I'm not talking about the ability to maintain an erection throughout a sex act, but the attraction - two very different things.

Well, I guess I will have to defer to your knowledge of gay porn, as I have had no experiences with it myself.

Obviously not, but I'm wondering if you've even had basic sex ed. You're quoting a lot of overtly biased sources that are selectively quoting actual sources to create a narrative that fits their agenda. Yes, it is quite true that unprotected anal sex is risky. What your sources seem to be leaving out is that any form of unprotected sex is risky. The human vagina is rather filthy in its own right, and plays host to a myriad of infectious diseases. STDs via vaginal sex were rampant in America long before sodomy was decriminalized, and far more STDs are spread today through vaginal intercourse than the anal version, and yet your sources don't appear interested in warning their readers about the dangers of heterosexual sex.

One could play the same game by replacing gays with blacks. Countless studies indicate that STD infection, and particularly HIV/AIDS, is a uniquely African American problem in the US. The black identifier correlates more strongly with STD infection than the gay one. Using the same dishonest cherry picking of data, a case could easily be made that black sex in America is inherently unhealthy and should be discouraged. Of course, that would be just as ridiculous as the argument your sources put forth.

Your sources have created a gay strawman of sorts who has unprotected sex with hundreds (thousands!) of partners through 'random hook-ups with random strangers in random places at random times...' Such a lifestyle is, indeed, quite unhealthy! However, that caricature has almost no resemblance to the reality associated with being gay. The mean number of sexual partners each year is about two, not two hundred. ACIN already refuted the nonsense you posted about random hookups, but here are some more fun facts.

"Of all sexual behaviors that men reported occurring during their last sexual event, those involving the anus were the least common," Rosenberger said. "There is certainly a misguided belief that 'gay sex equals anal sex,' which is simply untrue much of the time."

More than 40 percent of the study's participants reported that their most recent sexual partner was someone they were dating, their boyfriend or their spouse/partner. In comparison, an earlier study of predominantly heterosexual participants found that rate to be just over half.

I would submit that you do not understand homosexuality or the reality of what it means to be gay. Just as with the heterosexual population, promiscuity and risky sexual behavior certainly occurs among homosexuals; however, such activity is no more representative of gay people than straight people.

[Tellos Athenaios]

At the risk of contracting Lemur's disease; here's Popehat's write up: http://www.popehat.com/2013/08/22/th...ion-revisited/

Me, I particularly like the quoted argument by Justice Bosson:

On a larger scale, this case provokes reflection on what this nation is all about, its promise of fairness, liberty, equality of opportunity, and justice. At its heart, this case teaches that at some point in our lives all of us must compromise, if only a little, to accommodate the contrasting values of others. A multicultural, pluralistic society, one of our nation’s strengths, demands no less. The Huguenins are free to think, to say, to believe, as they wish; they may pray to the God of their choice and follow those commandments in their personal lives wherever they lead. The Constitution protects the Huguenins in that respect and much more. But there is a price, one that we all have to pay somewhere in our civic life.

In the smaller, more focused world of the marketplace, of commerce, of public accommodation, the Huguenins have to channel their conduct, not their beliefs, so as to leave space for other Americans who believe something different. That compromise is part of the glue that holds us together as a nation, the tolerance that lubricates the varied moving parts of us as a people. That sense of respect we owe others, whether or not we believe as they do, illuminates this country, setting it apart from the discord that afflicts much of the rest of the world. In short, I would say to the Huguenins, with the utmost respect: it is the price of citizenship.

(Emphasis mine.)

Let's hope the don't-want-to-pay-employment-benefits-because-I-disagree-with-the-choices-of-my-employees crowd grows up and learns that lesson about civic duty and civility, too.

[Vuk]

Vuk - Do you believe that sexual attraction is a conscious choice? If you needed to be attracted to men for some reason, could you will it to happen? I'm not talking about the ability to maintain an erection throughout a sex act, but the attraction - two very different things.

We are hard wired to be attracted to adults of the opposite sex and same species. Anything else is either the result of an unhealthy hormone imbalance or a person being trained to be stimulated by something. Whether that was being raped as a child, being preyed upon when depressed and associating good feelings with the sex act, or whatever.
It is also something that can be untrained.

One could play the same game by replacing gays with blacks. Countless studies indicate that STD infection, and particularly HIV/AIDS, is a uniquely African American problem in the US. The black identifier correlates more strongly with STD infection than the gay one. Using the same dishonest cherry picking of data, a case could easily be made that black sex in America is inherently unhealthy and should be discouraged. Of course, that would be just as ridiculous as the argument your sources put forth.

The reason these STDs are so common among black people is because gay relationships are extremely common and an enormous amount of America's black population is poor and does not practice safe or clean sex. Add needles onto that and you get the current situation. It doesn't mean being black is the problem, but that behaviors common amongst the black community are the problem.


As far as your sources, they are all biased and almost all based on survey data. The problem with that is that for all you know these men were reporting falsely in order to combat stereotypes about their sexuality. It is social science, and not science. Also, it is at odds with older data collected on the same subject, so even if the person conducting the research did not fabricate it and most of the respondents reported truthfully, that is still a recent development in the gay community, and for most of our country's history that was not true.

Whether the majority of them have tons of sex partners or not, and whether the majority of them have sex in bathrooms or homes, does it really matter? Sodomy is still extremely unhealthy (whether practiced by straights or gays), and much more likely to be practiced by gays than straights. In fact, unlike straight people who can engage in normal sexual intercourse, gay people's only options is sodomy (whether oral or anal, which are both extremely unhealthy).

You are right that majority of the scientific (university educated) community is on your side, because it is the politically correct thing to believe and they are heavily indoctrinated in Uni. I'll remind you though that at times the scientific community came down on the side of eugenics and many other messed up beliefs and practices. That doesn't make it right, nor does it mean that it is a settled issue because currently the scientific community reaches a partial consensus.

When it really gets down to it there is no way to objectively know 100% either way, and we make the choices based on our morals. We both look at the same data and draw different conclusion.

Let's just agree to disagree, as I really don't have the time to keep contributing to this thread anyway.

[Beskar]

We are hard wired to be attracted to adults of the opposite sex and same species. Anything else is either the result of an unhealthy hormone imbalance or a person being trained to be stimulated by something. Whether that was being raped as a child, being preyed upon when depressed and associating good feelings with the sex act, or whatever.
It is also something that can be untrained.

That is incorrect. I said in this post the reality.

[Vuk]

Sorry, but I disagree. I think that we can be trained to hump anything, but are only naturally attracted to adult members of the same species and opposite sex.

[Goofball]

Sorry, but I disagree. I think that we can be trained to hump anything, but are only naturally attracted to adult members of the same species and opposite sex.

Hmmm. Well, if you think it, it must be true. Science be damned. To quote an earlier post where you were responding to a statement that homosexuality is not a choice:

Of course you know this for a fact because you are a god who knows everything, right?

For this entire discussion you have dodged every issue, responding only with religious dogma and personal prejudice. But what's funny is that I'm pretty sure if Jesus were to come back, today, right now, and tell you in person that you actually have it wrong: homosexuality is not a choice, you would instantly convert to Islam because at least Mohammad hasn't gone soft on "teh gay."

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Sorry, but I disagree. I think that we can be trained to hump anything, but are only naturally attracted to adult members of the same species and opposite sex.

Actually - Vuk is not completely off here - there's enough evidence that sexuality is malleable to at least support his claim that people can conditioned.

See Ancient Sparta.