When did American society become so feminized?

[Vuk]

By feminized, I do not mean trait genetically belonging to women, but rather the traditional western cultural view of femininity.
I recently got a new job and had to take a drug test for the first time. The clinic had a sign on the outside that said "No firearms or weapons allowed inside" or something to that extent. I never considered for a moment that that could apply to a simple pocket knife. After all, isn't a weapon something that is designed for fighting or killing rather than just something that it is possible to kill with? I could kill someone more easily with a beer bottle than with my pocket knife, but apparently my tiny pocket knife is considered a deadly weapon.

The woman asked me to empty my pockets, so I took my pocket knife, chap-stick, comb, and loose change out and set it on the table. The woman immediately got all freaked out and told me that weapons were not allowed inside the building, and that I would need to take it outside and come back without it. When I tried saying it was just a pocket knife she informed me that it was a 'deadly weapon' and was not permitted inside the building. I had to take it out to my car or they would have called the police on me.
What the heck happened to our society? I remember when I was younger everyone carried a pocket knife. I started carrying on when I was six and have always carried one since (while going to Uni, when abroad, when at work, etc, etc.). Maybe it is just something that people who don't do physical work cannot understand. A pocket knife is designed to be a tool, not a weapon. It is an invaluable tool that I use all the time for all kinds of things that I never could have foreseen me using it for.

If a weapon is defined simply as something capable of killing someone, then what the heck about keys, bottles, tire irons, pens, etc, etc?! If a cop pulls someone over and finds a tire iron in their car and they gonna charge them for possession of a deadly weapon?!

Why can't our society ever be rational about things like this? A pocket knife is no more a weapon than a steel pen is! I wonder how long it will be till they legally mandate that we need to wear diapers to prevent dangerous spills!

[Rhyfelwyr]

Well carrying a knife here can get you a prison sentence. Used to be you could have a blade of up to 4 inches, but not any more. A lot of the bigger shops have detectors at the entrance as well so it would be hard to get away with it.

If you have a proper reason for having one (eg, for going camping), then you should be fine. But just walking around with a pocket knife would get you in trouble.

[Vuk]

Well carrying a knife here can get you a prison sentence. Used to be you could have a blade of up to 4 inches, but not any more. A lot of the bigger shops have detectors at the entrance as well so it would be hard to get away with it.

If you have a proper reason for having one (eg, for going camping), then you should be fine. But just walking around with a pocket knife would get you in trouble.

lol, they don't consider general utility to be a proper reason to carry one? Laws like that are such rubbish. There are so many things that are equally and more deadly that they do not ban (and realistically could not), so they are hardly going to stop anyone with bad intentions. All they do is create inconveniences for law abiding citizens.
I actually found out after I already got back home that the knife I carried in Hungary was illegal there. I guess the idea of pocket knives being illegal just never occurred to me. I was stopped by the police twice too (I was walking back to my apartment late at night), but thankfully they laughed and left me alone as soon as they found out I was American, so I was never arrested for carrying a pocket knife. :P

[HoreTore]

Unlike the US, most of Europe does not have a zero tolerance policy on crime, and so the police won't bother you if you break a law or two.

[Fragony]

I also carry a pocket knive but I do see it as a weapon, and that's exactly why I have it with me. Better to have it and not having to need it than the other way around.

[Papewaio]

You had me at chap stick.

Definitely feminized.

[HopAlongBunny]

Changing demographics and expectations.
I remember a few years ago the police being called to a bar on the outskirts of Calgary. Apparently, a truck was observed parked outside a bar with an unsecured high power rifle in the gun rack. Turns out, the owner of the gun and truck was a ranch hand; unlike 90% of the trucks in town, this was an actual work truck :p; the owner had stopped for a beer and a bite after a days work and never thought about the rifle (although he did remove and was carrying the bolt) Until recently the whole thing would have been a non-event, but the increasing gentrification of the populace made a truck with a gun a hostile object. Tools needed for a job become weapons in the eyes of others.

[Greyblades]

I don't think feminism fully means what you think it means. Regardless, it is somewhat odd that a country that worships the gun is becoming squeamish of the knife. Here, knife crime is generally viewed as endemic, even if it's only prevalent due to the people wanting to kill others not being able to get anything more effective. Personally I find myself coming down on vuk's side on this one, unlike guns knives are versatile tools and to suppress thier utility in fear of misuse is counter productive.

[Fragony]

In their defence, a knive is a weapon if you want to use it as one. They probably get a lot of junkies and drunks who are really unpredictable, wouldn't want to have it laying around either if I were them. If that's the protocol it's their's to decide

[Husar]

I say more power to the women and the effeminate!

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...25_onwards.png

If you truly want to curb violence and criminality, you should support this because obviously being feminine means being less violent.
Or do you not want to protect your family?

[The Lurker Below]

I keep a bunch of cheap ass pocket knives like they used to give away as free gifts back when you purchased something at monkey wards. On the rare occasion I go to the airport or stadium I carry one just so I can hand it over and have some smart ass comment implying that you aren't even a man if you don't carry a pocket knife. They are for utility purposes dammit!

[Strike For The South]

If you were a real man, you wouldn't bother with wage labor. LIVE OFF THE LAND

[Vuk]

I also carry a pocket knive but I do see it as a weapon, and that's exactly why I have it with me. Better to have it and not having to need it than the other way around.

Just because you carry one as a weapon does not make pocket knives weapons. People use beer bottles as weapons. I used to carry a tire knocker under my winter coat for self-defense, but that doesn't mean tire knockers are weapons. If something was designed as a weapon or being used as a weapon, then it is a weapon. But that doesn't make the tire knocker the trucker keeps with him, or the pocket knife I carry around weapons. All it means is that your pocket knife and my tire knocker are weapons.
Why should I be told I can't carry an extremely useful tool with me because some bloke somewhere likes to carry one as a weapon? (a pocket knife is really a pretty crappy weapon anyway, and I would seriously advice against it for self-defense. A pocket knife makes a fight deadly, but unlike a gun it is no decisive and may much more easily be used against you. Legally and practically speaking a pocket knife is a horrid weapon for self-defense.)

You had me at chap stick.

Definitely feminized.

Heaven knows, really men just let their lips dry out till they crack and bleed! lol Nearly everyone I know carries chapstick. When you like in a place as cold as Wisconsin and your heat is constantly dehydrating you in your car or house, it is hard to get by without some kind of lip balm.

I say more power to the women and the effeminate!

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...25_onwards.png

If you truly want to curb violence and criminality, you should support this because obviously being feminine means being less violent.
Or do you not want to protect your family?

There are so many things wrong with that argument...where to start...
Tell you what Husar, the incarceration rate of babies and the infirm is almost nothing. Should we all have our limbs remove to prevent crime? lol

[Vuk]

If you were a real man, you wouldn't bother with wage labor. LIVE OFF THE LAND

I think you would find that a knife would be essential for that.

[HoreTore]

Heaven knows, really men just let their lips dry out till they crack and bleed! lol Nearly everyone I know carries chapstick. When you like in a place as cold as Wisconsin and your heat is constantly dehydrating you in your car or house, it is hard to get by without some kind of lip balm.

Norway is much colder.

We vikings get by without makeup. You woman, you.

EDIT: And it's summer now.... Double-woman.

[Ironside]

I say more power to the women and the effeminate!

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...25_onwards.png

If you truly want to curb violence and criminality, you should support this because obviously being feminine means being less violent.
Or do you not want to protect your family?

I wonder if not the last sentence has most relevance, even if you point out that feminine isn't normally used the way Vuk uses it (yes it actually has definitions). It has probably more to do with a culture of fear, rather than feminisation (the most masculine rich nations are Japan and South Korea, not exactly known for their liberal gun laws or knife carrying normal citizens).

The stranger is scary, violent, child molesting, school shooting, drug high, etc, etc, so of course he's going to be dangerous if he carries a potential weapon.

[Husar]

There are so many things wrong with that argument...where to start...
Tell you what Husar, the incarceration rate of babies and the infirm is almost nothing. Should we all have our limbs remove to prevent crime? lol

Jesus already said we should be more like children to make the world a better place so you don't really have an argument there.
The last point is even ridiculous since I was talking about being feminine and you extrapolate that to removing limbs. What does removing limbs have to do with being feminine? It's not even like we need to change anything if you think society is diverging towards femininity all by itself anyway. Removing the limbs is quite a big and drastic change in comparison.

The change towards a more feminine society is a good one, especially considering that we've had extremely male societies for thousands of years, so we have plenty of compensation to do.

[Vuk]

Norway is much colder.

We vikings get by without makeup. You woman, you.

EDIT: And it's summer now.... Double-woman.

It is not make-up, it is moisturizer. You Vikings can swim in arctic waters and wrestle polar bears, so it is hardly fair to use you as a standard.

I wonder if not the last sentence has most relevance, even if you point out that feminine isn't normally used the way Vuk uses it (yes it actually has definitions). It has probably more to do with a culture of fear, rather than feminisation (the most masculine rich nations are Japan and South Korea, not exactly known for their liberal gun laws or knife carrying normal citizens).

The stranger is scary, violent, child molesting, school shooting, drug high, etc, etc, so of course he's going to be dangerous if he carries a potential weapon.

I said in my first post that I was referring not to female, but to the traditional meaning of 'feminine' behavior in western society. Fear of strangers and weapons usually went along with that. And sorry, but Japan and South Korea are amongst the most feminine nations on earth. They may treat women poorly, but that is not exactly masculine. The dudes in those countries style themselves, dress, and act extremely effeminately by Western (esp US) standards.

Jesus already said we should be more like children to make the world a better place so you don't really have an argument there.
The last point is even ridiculous since I was talking about being feminine and you extrapolate that to removing limbs. What does removing limbs have to do with being feminine? It's not even like we need to change anything if you think society is diverging towards femininity all by itself anyway. Removing the limbs is quite a big and drastic change in comparison.

My point is that just because a certain demographic is less likely to commit crime, that doesn't mean we should model our society after that demographic in order to reduce crime. There are a lot more factors at play.

The change towards a more feminine society is a good one, especially considering that we've had extremely male societies for thousands of years, so we have plenty of compensation to do.

Why? Because something was one way for a while, that means we have to bring it in the other direction? Again, to use an absurd example, we have always viewed disease as something to be avoided, that doesn't mean that we need to compensate now by embracing disease and aiding its spread (which I guess we do by embracing the homosexual and swinger cultures, lol :P).
'Masculine' behavior has always been defined as along terms of self-protection, protection of your family, and supplying for the needs of your family. Maybe instead of moving away from that we should disassociate it with male genitals and people of both sexes should embrace it.

[HoreTore]

Moisturizer = makeup. I keep one in a drawer with my other womanly stuff(painkillers, thermometer, cough syrup, cigarettes, etc) for that one day of the year I use it. I haven't carried it around since I was a kid, and can't really recall any male friends who do that.... But it's many months and lots of alcohol since winter, so my memory might be a bit shaky on that.

Anyway, on to the more relevant stuff:

Ref. Japan - Are you suggesting that the Samurai warrior of old who chopped the head off 5 men before lunch is feminine because he spent the evening braiding the hair of his brother-in-arms? I find that curios.

Also remember that the place in western society where most of the man-on-man nonsexual contact occurs is that most masculine of places - the army.

[HoreTore]

Actually, I'm pretty sure its Penn State.

That's just because you're in denial, soldier boy... But remember that no amount of therapy can erase what you experienced that night in the tent!!

[HoreTore]

Bah. I've heard the statistics thrown around but honestly, having served five years in line units as a lower enlisted all over the Army, I never once saw Man on Man sexual assault. I saw lots of false Male on Female reporting, I saw lots of legitimate Male on Female reporting, I even heard of a female CO who was putting the moves on her minions--but I never even heard of Male on Male going on. The way the media goes on about it, you'd think it would be a big visible problem, but honestly the biggest problem I saw in the Army was drug abuse (to include Alcohol abuse, which is absolutely rampant). Where's the coverage on that?

I'm not talking a little bit of weed here either, I'm talking Cocaine, Meth, Crack, Ecstasy, and other hard drugs that are out of your system fast. I saw a few stoners, but most got caught because you get piss-tested at least every 2 weeks in most units I was in. Every single unit I was in had a few Coke-heads. My first unit was so bad with it that we were nick-named the Delta Dimebags, and we had crack heads in that unit. Functional crack-heads. And they went to Iraq with us.

How did you miss the word nonsexual I wrote before "contact"?

I'm not talking about sex or rape, I'm talking about consensual male-on-male cuddling. The kind of touches your mom used to give you, now given by your fellow man.

[Rhyfelwyr]

It is not make-up, it is moisturizer.

You are not helping yourself here...

[Papewaio]

If I want Chapstick on my lips I kiss my wife.

Maybe it is because I have a Swedish surname and some tiny genetic advantage. But I'm not a great fan of cold weather in my old age.

[Husar]

Again, to use an absurd example, we have always viewed disease as something to be avoided, that doesn't mean that we need to compensate now by embracing disease and aiding its spread (which I guess we do by embracing the homosexual and swinger cultures, lol :P).

Great point, did you tell your wife that her behavior is comparable to a disease, too?

'Masculine' behavior has always been defined as along terms of self-protection, protection of your family, and supplying for the needs of your family. Maybe instead of moving away from that we should disassociate it with male genitals and people of both sexes should embrace it.

Yes, because everybody loved muscular women the last time we discussed the topic, right?
Also this protection is only required because of other men. Tell me how often men historicall needed their strength to protect their family from women. The truth is they had to protect their families from other strong men or died trying. Strength is easily abused just like other forms of power.

[a completely inoffensive name]

I was going to type up a large rebuttal but my elbows are so dry and irritating and I ran out of my shea cocoa butter.

I gotta head to the salon and get myself a FHN (face, head, nails) tune up.

[PanzerJaeger]

This thread is actually about the legal concept of liability and how distorted it has become. That's a discussion worth having.

[Ironside]

I said in my first post that I was referring not to female, but to the traditional meaning of 'feminine' behavior in western society. Fear of strangers and weapons usually went along with that. And sorry, but Japan and South Korea are amongst the most feminine nations on earth. They may treat women poorly, but that is not exactly masculine. The dudes in those countries style themselves, dress, and act extremely effeminately by Western (esp US) standards.

Nah, that has to do with 2 things. The first is that the US completely reject the cute boy concept officially. Possibly of fear of the gay (oh my God, I found that guy slightly attractive, that can totally not happen).
The thing is that the cute boy is getting more girls than the muscle man, see for example the boy band persona. Actually getting the girl counts as masculine I think?

Second, historically women couldn't perform on stage, so men had to do drag queen. This survived partically into today, making it socially accepted to act and dress very feminine on stage and it's also been used as a form of rebellion (the satanic guy dresses in girl clothes there to be as shocking). So that media has a lot of girlish stuff, while it very low outside that media.

Now I might be overreaching on how common the term is, but Hofstede uses the terms like this:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Masculine cultures' values are competitiveness, assertiveness, materialism, ambition and power, whereas feminine cultures place more value on relationships and quality of life. In masculine cultures, the differences between gender roles are more dramatic and less fluid than in feminine cultures where men and women have the same values emphasizing modesty and caring.

And his studies and world values survey (they uses different meassurements) are the 2 big ones when it comes to comparing world values.

This thread is actually about the legal concept of liability and how distorted it has become. That's a discussion worth having.

It's certainly linked to it. But the general safety hysteria is a larger trend. You can see it here in Sweden as well here and there. Media is the spreading vector, but I'm not sure if it originates there and modern media is simply scarier or if it's another driving factor working.

[Xiahou]

Why can't our society ever be rational about things like this? A pocket knife is no more a weapon than a steel pen is! I wonder how long it will be till they legally mandate that we need to wear diapers to prevent dangerous spills!

Not so much feminized as dumb, scared, sheep who don't know what hard work or thinking for yourself looks like.

[Vuk]

Nah, that has to do with 2 things. The first is that the US completely reject the cute boy concept officially. Possibly of fear of the gay (oh my God, I found that guy slightly attractive, that can totally not happen).
The thing is that the cute boy is getting more girls than the muscle man, see for example the boy band persona. Actually getting the girl counts as masculine I think?

Second, historically women couldn't perform on stage, so men had to do drag queen. This survived partically into today, making it socially accepted to act and dress very feminine on stage and it's also been used as a form of rebellion (the satanic guy dresses in girl clothes there to be as shocking). So that media has a lot of girlish stuff, while it very low outside that media.

Now I might be overreaching on how common the term is, but Hofstede uses the terms like this:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Masculine cultures' values are competitiveness, assertiveness, materialism, ambition and power, whereas feminine cultures place more value on relationships and quality of life. In masculine cultures, the differences between gender roles are more dramatic and less fluid than in feminine cultures where men and women have the same values emphasizing modesty and caring.

And his studies and world values survey (they uses different meassurements) are the 2 big ones when it comes to comparing world values.



It's certainly linked to it. But the general safety hysteria is a larger trend. You can see it here in Sweden as well here and there. Media is the spreading vector, but I'm not sure if it originates there and modern media is simply scarier or if it's another driving factor working.

Yes, the fact that women in many modern societies are preferring 'cute boys' over real men proves exactly how feminine society has become. No matter how feminine men become, women are still going to mostly prefer men over other women. That doesn't make the feminine men who get women hyper-masculine.
The Hofstede definition you posted is extremely flawed at best, and does not mesh with the common understanding of the word 'masculine'.

[Fragony]

You all got it wrong. Just be kind.