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Thread: Can routers fight back?

  1. #1

    Default Can routers fight back?

    I thought that the only way a routed unit could hurt those chasing it was if it was an elephant unit gone amok. You know, when its unit flag turns red. However, the other day I had a general unit chase routed elephants. I kept my eye on the elephants so I could pull my general away if the elephants started to rampage. They stayed on ordinary rout, but I noticed one of the lead elephants turn back. I guess I should have called off the chase right away, but I was curious about what would happen next. Anyhow, those elephants killed my general. The bodyguards got revenge by killing every last elephant.

    But that still leaves me wondering. Is it normal for routers to kill the occaisional pursuer in RTW?
    In those simple times there was a great wonder and mystery in life. Man walked in fear and solemnity, with Heaven very close above his head, and Hell below his very feet. God's visible hand was everywhere, in the rainbow and the comet, in the thunder and the wind. The Devil too raged openly upon the earth; he skulked behind the hedge-rows in the gloaming; he laughed loudly in the night-time; he clawed the dying sinner, pounced on the unbaptized babe, and twisted the limbs of the epileptic. A foul fiend slunk ever by a man's side and whispered villainies in his ear, while above him there hovered an angel of grace . . .

    Arthur Conan Doyle

  2. #2

    Default Re: Can routers fight back?

    Happened to me in the Warscape engine games too. I had a cavalry unit chasing routers in Empire Realism+ Shogun 2 and suddenly the routers turned and killed my horsemen.

    If routers could intentionally fight back that would be nice but this just seems like something weird as in RTW-S2TW routers aren't supposed to fight back.

    Then there's the bug with shattered units which makes them un-rout-able fight to the last man units... Really annoying when playing online.

    Lets not talk about the shattered bug shall we?
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  3. #3
    Strategist and Storyteller Member Myth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can routers fight back?

    There are two types of routing in the RTW/M2TW engine.

    One can be turned back after a time and used again. If you're unlucky the unit can return to sanity at the time you're chasing it. More often this happens with elite units with higher morale.

    The route where they head for the hills and you get victory (or if a unit is way too low for it to recover) is when you get to kill them with impunity.
    The art of war, then, is governed by five constant
    factors, to be taken into account in one's deliberations,
    when seeking to determine the conditions obtaining in the field.

    These are: (1) The Moral Law; (2) Heaven; (3) Earth;
    (4) The Commander; (5) Method and discipline.
    Sun Tzu, "The Art of War"
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  4. #4
    Senior Member Senior Member ReluctantSamurai's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can routers fight back?

    Ellies or chariots can retain the ability to kill even when "amok". I have observed this many, many times in my campaigns, and indeed, have lost family members in the course of chasing these units.

    My hat still goes off to the STW I AI...the "fake rout" tactic had my jaw dropping (followed by much !@#$%) the first time it happened. A bunch of foot units heading off the map enmass in full retreat suddenly turn on my chasing cavalry

    Goodbye Yari Cavalry

    Not exactly routing units, technically, but a very smart move, nonetheless
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  5. #5
    Arrogant Ashigaru Moderator Ludens's Avatar
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    Lightbulb Re: Can routers fight back?

    If I recall correctly, dying elephants occasionally fall on top of the men next to it, killing them instantly. I've actually lost a general that way. However, that doesn't sound like what you describe.

    It's been a while since I played R:TW, but don't charging/fleeing elephants cause any soldiers in their path to be thrown into the sky? That's not a regular attack (the elephant doesn't need to stop), but it's related to the unit's mass. If the lead elephant turned around for some pathfinding reason, and the general just happened to be in his way...

    Either way, the moral of the story is that you should never use generals to pursue elephants.
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  6. #6
    Strategist and Storyteller Member Myth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can routers fight back?

    If they're fleeing they shouldn't cause problems. If they're berserking with that flashing red icon, then you should stay away and maybe pelt them with javelins.
    The art of war, then, is governed by five constant
    factors, to be taken into account in one's deliberations,
    when seeking to determine the conditions obtaining in the field.

    These are: (1) The Moral Law; (2) Heaven; (3) Earth;
    (4) The Commander; (5) Method and discipline.
    Sun Tzu, "The Art of War"
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  7. #7

    Default Re: Can routers fight back?

    Thanks for your responses. Looks like we have multiple theories about what "actually" happened. I am sure the elephants did not recover from rout status and were not beserk. Other than that, I think I'll go with Ludens' advice, "the moral of the story is that you should never use generals to pursue elephants."

    Although come to think of it, a war hero squashed while chasing an elephant might have role playing potential ...
    In those simple times there was a great wonder and mystery in life. Man walked in fear and solemnity, with Heaven very close above his head, and Hell below his very feet. God's visible hand was everywhere, in the rainbow and the comet, in the thunder and the wind. The Devil too raged openly upon the earth; he skulked behind the hedge-rows in the gloaming; he laughed loudly in the night-time; he clawed the dying sinner, pounced on the unbaptized babe, and twisted the limbs of the epileptic. A foul fiend slunk ever by a man's side and whispered villainies in his ear, while above him there hovered an angel of grace . . .

    Arthur Conan Doyle

  8. #8
    Member Member Yesugey's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can routers fight back?

    Quote Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai View Post
    Ellies or chariots can retain the ability to kill even when "amok". I have observed this many, many times in my campaigns, and indeed, have lost family members in the course of chasing these units.

    My hat still goes off to the STW I AI...the "fake rout" tactic had my jaw dropping (followed by much !@#$%) the first time it happened. A bunch of foot units heading off the map enmass in full retreat suddenly turn on my chasing cavalry

    Goodbye Yari Cavalry

    Not exactly routing units, technically, but a very smart move, nonetheless
    If you mean the first, ancient buggy version of STW, I came here to describe the same thing
    Your Yari Cavalry catches the shattered, fleeing Ashigaru or Archers, and they die instead! They were even more dangerous than fighting men.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Can routers fight back?

    Quote Originally Posted by BroskiDerpman View Post
    Happened to me in the Warscape engine games too. I had a cavalry unit chasing routers in Empire Realism+ Shogun 2 and suddenly the routers turned and killed my horsemen.

    If routers could intentionally fight back that would be nice but this just seems like something weird as in RTW-S2TW routers aren't supposed to fight back.

    Then there's the bug with shattered units which makes them un-rout-able fight to the last man units... Really annoying when playing online.

    Lets not talk about the shattered bug shall we?
    If you are talking about what I think you are, a surrounded routed unit decides to fight to the last man. It is not technically un-rout-able. It is just a routed unit that will not run away because you left it no path of escape. Just move your troops away and it will run.
    In those simple times there was a great wonder and mystery in life. Man walked in fear and solemnity, with Heaven very close above his head, and Hell below his very feet. God's visible hand was everywhere, in the rainbow and the comet, in the thunder and the wind. The Devil too raged openly upon the earth; he skulked behind the hedge-rows in the gloaming; he laughed loudly in the night-time; he clawed the dying sinner, pounced on the unbaptized babe, and twisted the limbs of the epileptic. A foul fiend slunk ever by a man's side and whispered villainies in his ear, while above him there hovered an angel of grace . . .

    Arthur Conan Doyle

  10. #10
    Arrogant Ashigaru Moderator Ludens's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can routers fight back?

    That is true, although in R:TW SP I've seen units go into "fighting to the death" stance even when there was a clear avenue of escape. This only happened when the unit was surrounded on three sides. I guess the pathfinding engine decided there was no escape that didn't lead through an enemy unit. Withdrawing one of those units would usually be enough to get the target to rout.
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  11. #11
    Strategist and Storyteller Member Myth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can routers fight back?

    IIRC when fighting to the death their banners turn red like for the German Berzerkers, right?
    The art of war, then, is governed by five constant
    factors, to be taken into account in one's deliberations,
    when seeking to determine the conditions obtaining in the field.

    These are: (1) The Moral Law; (2) Heaven; (3) Earth;
    (4) The Commander; (5) Method and discipline.
    Sun Tzu, "The Art of War"
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  12. #12

    Default Re: Can routers fight back?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brandy Blue View Post
    If you are talking about what I think you are, a surrounded routed unit decides to fight to the last man. It is not technically un-rout-able. It is just a routed unit that will not run away because you left it no path of escape. Just move your troops away and it will run.
    The unit was broken and I was chasing it with my general unit, it had a clear path of escape and my general was essentially escorting the line infantry off the field until a few turned around when the fight animation popped up and for some reason the horsemen died instead of the routers.

    The general died too!

    The rest were still running away though.

    In Shogun 2 I know there's this shattered bug which leaves the unit standing there and if any unit touches it or gets in the firing cone the shattered unit attacks.

    So you could have this undead spear wall Ashigaru unit sitting there and if any unit touches it they die.

    In Rome 2 there's this mini AAR which had a floating shield shoot out javelins.
    Last edited by BroskiDerpman; 09-13-2013 at 14:35.
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  13. #13
    Senior Member Senior Member ReluctantSamurai's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can routers fight back?

    Withdrawing one of those units would usually be enough to get the target to rout
    Meh...by that time, what's the point in moving a unit away? Might as well pull an MK routine and finish them

    More often than not for me, it's a unit of cavalry that has closed the back door and we all know what happens when you try to disengage cav

    IIRC when fighting to the death their banners turn red like for the German Berzerkers, right
    I believe this is correct, but often times it's such a big blob of troops caught in my cavalry net that I don't really pay much attention to banner color...

    I was chasing it with my general unit, it had a clear path of escape and my general was essentially escorting the line infantry off the field until a few turned around when the fight animation popped up and for some reason the horsemen died instead of the routers
    A cavalry unit, yes? If you leave a unit that is trying to get off the field no clear way to exit, you essentially get the fight-to-the-death routine again. I sometimes do it intentionally when trying to kill every single soldier before they can leave. If I was besieging a city and a reinforcement stack attacked my army, I want absolutely no survivors to maintain even a semblance of a garrison. End of siege.
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  14. #14

    Default Re: Can routers fight back?

    My 10 man general unit was just chasing a routing line infantry unit in a long stretched out line.

    Quite strange when the unit had a clear path and was way larger than my general unit. I was using Empire Realism mod if that matters.
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  15. #15
    Senior Member Senior Member ReluctantSamurai's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can routers fight back?

    Empire Realism


    Are we talking R1 here, or ETW? or some mod for RTW that I'm not aware of?
    High Plains Drifter

  16. #16

    Default Re: Can routers fight back?

    Oh, I was talking about later TW games. I.e I wrote: It happens to me in later Warscape engine games too.

    Perhaps the mechanics work the same? Just like how units escort the enemy off the battlefield unscathed.

    I still play RTW and this never happened.
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  17. #17
    Senior Member Senior Member ReluctantSamurai's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can routers fight back?

    I still play RTW and this never happened.
    Hmmm. Last time I checked, THIS forum was about RTW and not games on the Warscape engine
    High Plains Drifter

  18. #18

    Default Re: Can routers fight back?

    I'm relating to how this happened to me in Warscape.
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  19. #19
    Requin Member Vincent Butler's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can routers fight back?

    Like Brandy Blue said, surrounding a routing unit will cause them to fight to the death, and amok elephants kill whoever they run through, whether their own men or the enemy. I believe ditto for Scythe Chariots. I learned the hard way with Lancers, don't chase down amok elephants with melee cav. Back to the routing units, if the enemy has attacked your city and taken the gate, and you take it back while there are routing enemy units in the city, if your gate is intact and the walls not breached, they will stop routing. Same as if the enemy attacks (usually huge Roman/Greek city, large/epic stone walls, attacking from east side), if they don't breach, the ram usually gets destroyed, and they don't usually take the gate; their units will not rout. As opposed to Berserker units, if they are defending on the walls, if they go berserk, they will come off the walls when the enemies on the walls are killed, run out the gates, and attack the enemy outside until they are wiped out.
    Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight: Psalm 144:1

    In peace there's nothing so becomes a man
    As modest stillness and humility:
    But when the blast of war blows in our ears,
    Then imitate the action of the tiger;
    -Henry V by William Shakespeare

  20. #20
    Requin Member Vincent Butler's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can routers fight back?

    If the enemy is routing, they will not fight back and you will not lose units. If they fight to the death you can still lose units to them. It appears one hit kills a fighting to the death unit (usually), somebody correct me if I am wrong.
    Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight: Psalm 144:1

    In peace there's nothing so becomes a man
    As modest stillness and humility:
    But when the blast of war blows in our ears,
    Then imitate the action of the tiger;
    -Henry V by William Shakespeare

  21. #21
    Senior Member Senior Member ReluctantSamurai's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can routers fight back?

    If the enemy is routing, they will not fight back and you will not lose units.
    Generally speaking, this is true. You will not lose a unit. But if you've ever zoomed in close during a chase, you will see individual men from the routing unit turn to fight. Their unit as a whole is still routing, but certain individuals will make a stand. Your losses will not be much, but I've sent a 54 man cavalry unit after a routing enemy, and lost between 1-3 cavalrymen. This has happened in many, many battles where I've broken a siege and the enemy is being routed off the field.

    This tells me that you can lose men to routers, but highly unlikely you'd lose an entire unit.

    It appears one hit kills a fighting to the death unit
    Very hard to determine unless you can catch a single unit (with few, if any other units still on the map) and have the luxury of time to be able to zoom in close. Most of the time, the "fight-to-the-death" routine happens when you snap a hammer-and-anvil trap closed and all the troops caught in the bag will then fight to the death. With so many units jammed together in a small space, it's very hard to be able to zoom on a single man....and you usually don't have the time to do so
    Last edited by ReluctantSamurai; 05-29-2014 at 06:08.
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  22. #22
    Requin Member Vincent Butler's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can routers fight back?

    I meant individual soldiers, not actual units, but that explains how I lose people while chasing down routers with my cav. The one hit issue is based on observation, not actual research. Could be those soldiers had already taken hits. I usually see it happen on walls when a unit fights to the death, I like watching the fighting on walls (unless it is spearmen vs spearmen).
    Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight: Psalm 144:1

    In peace there's nothing so becomes a man
    As modest stillness and humility:
    But when the blast of war blows in our ears,
    Then imitate the action of the tiger;
    -Henry V by William Shakespeare

  23. #23

    Default Re: Can routers fight back?

    Quote Originally Posted by BroskiDerpman View Post
    Just like how units escort the enemy off the battlefield unscathed.

    I've seen cavalry units including generals apparently 'escorting' routed units from the field. Without checking I guessed they were picking off stragglers or firing missiles without risking their own men. All I ever do is swap the unit with another unit doing the same thing whereupon they charge their respective new targets.

  24. #24
    Senior Member Senior Member ReluctantSamurai's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can routers fight back?

    Yes, it's rather stupid to watch your cavalry carry out "escort" duty with routers...never mind that foot soldiers are running nearly as fast as horses I just order my unit to change direction, and then attack the routers again. And whomever designed the cavalry maneuvers on the battlefield should be drawn and quartered. When I order a cav unit to a charge, I want them straight in from the direction I'm sending them and not attempt the cutsie maneuver to curl around behind. Particularly frustrating when you have a cav unit at the "red-line" exit area in prime position to intercept a routing general, but nooooo, they have to attempt to get behind him and the general escapes
    High Plains Drifter

  25. #25

    Default Re: Can routers fight back?

    Ha ha - I can imagine you sitting there with steam coming out of your ears. I know the feeling. A unit is routing and you have two cavalry units perfectly placed to attack from left and right front - and they serenely troop in behind. Maybe they added the army rout message to stop us smashing the computer screen :)
    Last edited by williamsiddell; 07-25-2014 at 10:12.

  26. #26
    Requin Member Vincent Butler's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can routers fight back?

    Usually that happens when there is a straggler or the enemy unit is split, and your unit is between the straggler and the rest of the group. There I run my cav ahead, come from the front, and hope I kill the guys in front, and then they target the straggler. Or let the straggler come up through your guys, then order them to attack again, they may kill the straggler, and then they will target the rest of the enemy unit.
    I want them straight in from the direction I'm sending them and not attempt the cutsie maneuver to curl around behind
    I have not noticed that too much, I just wish the cav would lead the enemy instead of tracking them in a nice long curve.
    Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight: Psalm 144:1

    In peace there's nothing so becomes a man
    As modest stillness and humility:
    But when the blast of war blows in our ears,
    Then imitate the action of the tiger;
    -Henry V by William Shakespeare

  27. #27

    Default Re: Can routers fight back?

    When I'm attacking a unit I always click on the enemy flag, only to see my cavalry dash off in the opposite direction toward a straggler and right into the teeth of a phalanx. A solution to that quirk would be useful.

  28. #28
    Senior Member Senior Member ReluctantSamurai's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can routers fight back?

    It's even worse when an enemy attempts to break a siege. You often get routers attempting to get back through the city gates, and your cav could easily catch them before they get there. But instead, your unit runs all the way around to a side gate to catch the one straggler trying to reenter from there
    High Plains Drifter

  29. #29
    Requin Member Vincent Butler's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can routers fight back?

    You often get routers attempting to get back through the city gates, and your cav could easily catch them before they get there. But instead, your unit runs all the way around to a side gate to catch the one straggler trying to reenter from there
    In those situations, I like to tell my cav to run through the gates instead of telling them to attack. In that situation, I am also trying to get my infantry inside to take the walls. With wooden walls, it does not matter, in fact you can run cav all the way around the city and take all the wooden gates. I have done that to keep an enemy reinforcing army from helping, they just milled around outside while I mopped up on the inside.
    Last edited by Vincent Butler; 08-06-2014 at 19:03.
    Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight: Psalm 144:1

    In peace there's nothing so becomes a man
    As modest stillness and humility:
    But when the blast of war blows in our ears,
    Then imitate the action of the tiger;
    -Henry V by William Shakespeare

  30. #30

    Default Re: Can routers fight back?

    A solution to that quirk would be useful
    Quote Originally Posted by Vincent Butler View Post
    I like to tell my cav to run through the gates instead of telling them to attack
    Nice one. That sounds like it'll work in the field too.

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