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Thread: I have a dream today

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    One of the Undutchables Member The Stranger's Avatar
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    Default I have a dream today

    This date 50 years ago, Martin Luther King spoke the prophetic words, "I have a dream today."

    "I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal.

    I have a dream that one day on the red hills of Georgia the sons of former slaves and the sons of former slave owners will be able to sit down together at a table of brotherhood.

    I have a dream that one day even the state of Mississippi, a state, sweltering with the heat of injustice and sweltering with the heat of oppression, will be transformed into an oasis of freedom and justice.

    I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character. I have a dream today."


    I'm interested what has happened to his dream today, what has happened to his legacy. Perhaps American orgahs can tell me some about it.

    We do not sow.

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    Member Member Greyblades's Avatar
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    Default Re: I have a dream today

    Racists are refusing to die quietly and america's grand old governmnetal system gives them a disproportional amount of power by which to play regressive reactionaries.

    Dream's stalled.
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    Default Re: I have a dream today

    It was subverted, mostly for political gain. And the well intentioned actions were poorly implemented creating more problems than the solved.

    It doesn’t mean real progress has not been made, but it is a long way from ideal.


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    Default Re: I have a dream today

    interchange black/white with sunni/sh'ite, or serb/croat, or catholic/protestant, or ...
    institutionally the dream succeeded. institutionally prohibition and the 55 mph speed limit made it as well. will society ever catch up with the institutions that attempt to guide it? /mild chuckle
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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: I have a dream today

    US has a black president, if you told him he would probably wonder when he will wake up
    Last edited by Fragony; 08-28-2013 at 16:10.

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    Ranting madman of the .org Senior Member Fly Shoot Champion, Helicopter Champion, Pedestrian Killer Champion, Sharpshooter Champion, NFS Underground Champion Rhyfelwyr's Avatar
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    Default Re: I have a dream today

    In terms of people's attitudes, things have improved immensely. Outright racism is no longer socially acceptable.

    The problem is that, as ever, economic realities are what really matters, and it is because of these that the condition of black people hasn't improved an awful lot. In theory you might be free to use whatever water fountain you like, but that's not much use when you are in prison.

    But yeah if you are a middle-class black guy you can have a great time of it, affirmative action etc...
    At the end of the day politics is just trash compared to the Gospel.

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    One of the Undutchables Member The Stranger's Avatar
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    Default Re: I have a dream today

    What about the root of this dream, which as he said, is deeply rooted in the American Dream, and the truth they hold to be self evident, either founded in religious or humanist tradition, that all men are (created) equal.

    Freedom through Equality, what can be said about that (preferably in relation to MLK, but otherwise just in general). Is it a myth that we like to tell ourselves to feel better? Is it something that we need to bring into existence (through social engineering etc). Or is it truly a selfevident truth, and are some people just to blind to see it.

    Other questions pop into my mind right now, such as, it is clearly not the only way to organise a society, but is it the best way? Can it only function in a democracy and can democracy only really function with this ideal in mind? What kind of freedom do we create through equality?
    Last edited by The Stranger; 08-28-2013 at 16:42.

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    One of the Undutchables Member The Stranger's Avatar
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    Default Re: I have a dream today

    sorry doublepost.

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    One of the Undutchables Member The Stranger's Avatar
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    Default Re: I have a dream today

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr View Post
    In terms of people's attitudes, things have improved immensely. Outright racism is no longer socially acceptable.

    The problem is that, as ever, economic realities are what really matters, and it is because of these that the condition of black people hasn't improved an awful lot. In theory you might be free to use whatever water fountain you like, but that's not much use when you are in prison.

    But yeah if you are a middle-class black guy you can have a great time of it, affirmative action etc...
    Ok, that is clear. But what if we leave the black&white opposition out of it for now, and move on to a slightly bigger scope. After all it was part of his dream that people are not judged for the color of their skin (either positive or negative discrimination) but for the content of their character. So it is not just about blacks, or whatever race, but in principle about all the people being oppressed and ignored.

    I've touched upon it a bit in my previous post. You mention that it is the economic reality which really matters, but the economy is a free market, we cannot garantuee equality in a free market and thats exactly the way we want it to be and how it should be(speaking in general economic spirit here). So what does Freedom through Equality mean in a society where the most dominant and important factor is one which pretty much garantuees inequality (perhaps that statement is too bold, but I think you get my meaning).

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    In the shadows... Member Vuk's Avatar
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    Default Re: I have a dream today

    The Left succeeded in changing culture so that the majority of the black community stopped trying to better themselves and started to see themselves as victims, and created social programs to enslave them as perpetual Democrat voters. As long as they keep the black community on the ground and relying on them, they will always get their votes.
    That is what happened.
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    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: I have a dream today

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr View Post
    In theory you might be free to use whatever water fountain you like, but that's not much use when you are in prison.
    I really liked this sentence. Made me chuckle.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

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    Needs more flowers Moderator drone's Avatar
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    Default Re: I have a dream today

    Quote Originally Posted by The Stranger View Post
    I'm interested what has happened to his dream today, what has happened to his legacy. Perhaps American orgahs can tell me some about it.
    All you need to know about the "dream": that speech is under copyright (filed for by the man himself) and won't enter the public domain until 2038 (assuming Disney doesn't get yet another Mickey Mouse extension). The MLK estate charges licencing fees for it's use.
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    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
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    Default Re: I have a dream today

    Quote Originally Posted by drone View Post
    All you need to know about the "dream": that speech is under copyright (filed for by the man himself) and won't enter the public domain until 2038 (assuming Disney doesn't get yet another Mickey Mouse extension). The MLK estate charges licencing fees for it's use.
    Untrue on several counts. MLK did not file for copyright on the speech. It was found to be covered by common law copyright which in turns covers for 120 years ie 2083.

    This was all ruled years after his assassination.
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    Needs more flowers Moderator drone's Avatar
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    Default Re: I have a dream today

    He filed a month after the speech, which muddied the case enough to get a settlement from CBS and get the rights to the estate.

    I have a dream, but since I don't want to get sued I'll just keep my mouth shut.
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    Default Re: I have a dream today

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr View Post
    In terms of people's attitudes, things have improved immensely. Outright racism is no longer socially acceptable.

    The problem is that, as ever, economic realities are what really matters, and it is because of these that the condition of black people hasn't improved an awful lot. In theory you might be free to use whatever water fountain you like, but that's not much use when you are in prison.

    But yeah if you are a middle-class black guy you can have a great time of it, affirmative action etc...
    I have a series of thoughts, images, or emotions occurring during sleep that this is accurate. It's absolutely not. Affirmative action etc are not social behaviors. That's government and business that are regulated by government. Racism is alive and strong as ever. The dream of our children playing together doesn't come into play until they get out from under parental control, and they hook up at college or the club. Out neighborhoods, schools, churches and other social institutions are as segregated as ever. Do we really believe that the preacher was talking about regulated legal freedom and equality? ________ please!
    Last edited by The Lurker Below; 08-29-2013 at 16:28.
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    Ranting madman of the .org Senior Member Fly Shoot Champion, Helicopter Champion, Pedestrian Killer Champion, Sharpshooter Champion, NFS Underground Champion Rhyfelwyr's Avatar
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    Default Re: I have a dream today

    Quote Originally Posted by The Lurker Below View Post
    I have a series of thoughts, images, or emotions occurring during sleep that this is accurate. It's absolutely not. Affirmative action etc are not social behaviors. That's government and business that are regulated by government. Racism is alive and strong as ever. The dream of our children playing together doesn't come into play until they get out from under parental control, and they hook up at college or the club. Out neighborhoods, schools, churches and other social institutions are as segregated as ever. Do we really believe that the preacher was talking about regulated legal freedom and equality? ________ please!
    I never said affirmative action was a social behaviour - it is what it is. I'm not American and I've never been there, but I get the impression that racism is no longer socially acceptable. I guess you could say it is more latent nowadays, but is that really why communities remain segregated? I still think economic realities are the major issue. For example, is white flight really a race issue? From what I've read, it's really just middle-class folks (which happen to be white) moving out when poorer sorts (which tend to be black) move nearby. The same process has been observed in the UK, but (largely) without the racial coincidence. Although white people are more likely to have the wealth to do so, wealthier minorities tend to move out of the more deprived inner city areas when they have the opportunity.

    Of course this means that Luther's dream has not yet been realised, but continuing racism isn't the reason for that.

    Anyway, that is all dependent on my idea that racism is no longer acceptable in American political or social life. But you will know better than me. I grew up in Scotland, remember - there wasn't a black kid in my primary school the whole time I was there, only one in secondary school who was a few years below me.
    At the end of the day politics is just trash compared to the Gospel.

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    Default Re: I have a dream today

    Do all the white families leave because they are racist? Certainly not. They leave because their house is hands down the biggest financial investment they have and their homes value is plummeting. They leave to save something of that investment. What's that say when we know that racial minorities moving into the neighborhood are going to cause home values to decrease? They might very well keep up the maintenance better than the former residents, but it doesn't matter. Wonder what was on the minds of the second, third, and fourth family in the neighborhood when they put their houses on the market?

    At a young age one of my friends noted that we won't be racists once we're all shades of gray. None of us will be around to know, but it won't take too many generations to find out if he's right or not.
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    One of the Undutchables Member The Stranger's Avatar
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    Default Re: I have a dream today

    Quote Originally Posted by The Lurker Below View Post
    Do all the white families leave because they are racist? Certainly not. They leave because their house is hands down the biggest financial investment they have and their homes value is plummeting. They leave to save something of that investment. What's that say when we know that racial minorities moving into the neighborhood are going to cause home values to decrease? They might very well keep up the maintenance better than the former residents, but it doesn't matter. Wonder what was on the minds of the second, third, and fourth family in the neighborhood when they put their houses on the market?

    At a young age one of my friends noted that we won't be racists once we're all shades of gray. None of us will be around to know, but it won't take too many generations to find out if he's right or not.
    i doubt hes right, people will always find some reason to discriminate i fear, but even if hes right, its hardly a moral victory. the dream is about equal worth whilst being different not about equal worth whilst all being identical (atleast in the color of the skin department).

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  19. #19

    Default Re: I have a dream today

    Quote Originally Posted by The Stranger View Post
    i doubt hes right, people will always find some reason to discriminate I fear,
    I agree. But that's no reason to fear. It's the nature of humanity. At least history would indicate that. Earlier I posted: sunni/sh'ite, or serb/croat, or catholic/protestant, or ... How far back would we go and find instances of this? Forever? Homo Sapiens success has a long history of competition for survival. Humans are a herd animal, and for all our time we've pitted one herd against the other. We all want to belong to some herd. It'd be unfair to say the preacher was ignorant of our past. His words don't imply that we could view each other by the content of character, only that we as individuals should strive to achieve that.
    Last edited by The Lurker Below; 08-29-2013 at 17:38.
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    One of the Undutchables Member The Stranger's Avatar
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    Default Re: I have a dream today

    well... it is definitely a reason to fear if you are on the side of the discriminated, oppressed, prosecuted etc. But yes, I guess its in our nature, we are a herd animal as you say.

    I dont mean to say that MLK is ignorant of our past but his idea about equality and freedom through equality is definitely rooted in his religious beliefs and Im quite sure he has a different perception of humankind than one that stems from a "modern" conception about the roots of humanity.

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  21. #21

    Default Re: I have a dream today

    King was nothing but a con man and his 'dream' has infantilized America's second largest minority. As a demographic block, blacks were far better off in nearly every socioeconomic metric before King convinced them that true equality is bestowed, not earned. His legacy consists of welfare dependence, absentee parents, rampant violence, copycat race hucksters like Jackson and Sharpton, hyper racialization a la Trayvon Martin and several generations [snip] that have been conditioned to believe that it's all someone else's responsibility. The condition of the self identified black community in the US is a national disgrace and can largely be traced back to King's hijacking of the Civil Rights movement and his successive demogogary.

    In many ways, Malcolm X's ideas centered around family, self reliance, and social cohesion would have been a better model than King's man over movement egoism and the cult of personality that he encouraged.
    Last edited by Beskar; 09-19-2013 at 02:28.

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    Ni dieu ni maître! Senior Member a completely inoffensive name's Avatar
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    Default Re: I have a dream today

    Why bother chipping in ACIN, this is a terrible thread anyway.

    In the 1860s and the 1960s, America failed to do what it should have done. Broken the backs of the south and radically altered its culture. FOr 100 years the US believed it had won the moral war by disestablishing one structure. Then the racists proceeded to simply poison the water and segregationist views spread across the entire country.

    What King did was important and his disciples are not representative of him any more than Christrians throughout history represent the principles of Jesus the man.

    Malcom X was correct in advocating a struggle against all white people. How would have America's double standards held up if there was a 1960s equivalent to John Brown to serve as a martyr?
    Last edited by a completely inoffensive name; 08-30-2013 at 07:16.
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  23. #23
    Ranting madman of the .org Senior Member Fly Shoot Champion, Helicopter Champion, Pedestrian Killer Champion, Sharpshooter Champion, NFS Underground Champion Rhyfelwyr's Avatar
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    Default Re: I have a dream today

    Quote Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger View Post
    King was nothing but a con man and his 'dream' has infantilized America's second largest minority. As a demographic block, blacks were far better off in nearly every socioeconomic metric before King convinced them that true equality is bestowed, not earned.
    The bit in bold could not be more plainly wrong. People should be born with basic human rights according to your own Constitution, and these were denied to blacks in America.

    Quote Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger View Post
    His legacy consists of welfare dependence, absentee parents, rampant violence,
    Wow, I never knew the condition of my white Scottish neighbours was down to King's legacy.

    The things you describe are being witnessed in the traditional working-classes throughout the developed world. You have a similar white underclass in America. They are perhaps the biggest victims of all, since the racial angle that is projected onto inequality issues means they are excluded from affirmative action.

    Quote Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger View Post
    copycat race hucksters like Jackson and Sharpton, hyper racialization a la Trayvon Martin and several generations of third world animals that have been conditioned to believe that it's all someone else's responsibility.
    You like to play the old "take responsibility" card, and yet you seem to deny/ignore the fact that US institutions and society have any responsibility for the condition of black people. You brought them over as slaves, segregated them by law, gave them poorer schooling, poorer healthcare, and continued these practices well within living memory.

    But no, it's them that need to take responsibility!

    Quote Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger View Post
    The condition of the self identified black community in the US is a national disgrace and can largely be traced back to King's hijacking of the Civil Rights movement and his successive demogogary.
    Or, more likely, the fact that they generally lack the qualifications to function in the new service/finance economy. Look at the blacks in Detroit that used to work in heavy industry, what do you expect them to do now? They lack the skills needed today, they are too poor to relocate...

    Quote Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger View Post
    In many ways, Malcolm X's ideas centered around family, self reliance, and social cohesion would have been a better model than King's man over movement egoism and the cult of personality that he encouraged.
    From what I've seen, MLK preached all those things as well. Acknowledging injustice where it exists is not akin to denying your own responsibility.
    Last edited by Rhyfelwyr; 08-30-2013 at 13:12.
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    Default Re: I have a dream today

    It changed the face of racism, did not eliminate it.
    Largely ignored the fight against poverty.
    Completely ignored King's observation that funneling resources to foreign military adventures robbed the very citizens it was declared to protect.
    Powerful, moving and completely re-caste that it might be ignored as a standard by subsequent talking heads.

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    Apr 04-Nov 11 Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Re: I have a dream today

    Quote Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger View Post
    King was nothing but a con man and his 'dream' has infantilized America's second largest minority. As a demographic block, blacks were far better off in nearly every socioeconomic metric
    False. Black owned business and land were the result of an artificial market caused by de jure segregation. White businesses came along and quite simply outperformed them once this artificial bubble was popped. That isn't to shake my finger at the white businesses, it's a simple fact.

    before King convinced them that true equality is bestowed, not earned.
    Yes, you should be called mammy and uncle and wear that with pride. I don't know what this is getting at, I'm going to assume you have some vague idea of bootstraps.

    His legacy consists of welfare dependence, absentee parents, rampant violence, copycat race hucksters like Jackson and Sharpton, hyper racialization a la Trayvon Martin and several generations of third world animals that have been conditioned to believe that it's all someone else's responsibility.
    Is the national review leaking? Black peoples position in society has coalesced from extremely broad sociological factors. Some that are in their control, some that are not. I certainly fail to see how Kings legacy (an abstract, high brow idea of equality) can take credit for that. Also, Sharpton and Jackson are only as relevant as old white people who put them on CNN think they are.



    The condition of the self identified black community in the US is a national disgrace and can largely be traced back to King's hijacking of the Civil Rights movement and his successive demogogary.
    It's a disgrace that the entire country has played a part in.

    In many ways, Malcolm X's ideas centered around family, self reliance, and social cohesion would have been a better model than King's man over movement egoism and the cult of personality that he encouraged.
    Malcom X was also an anti Semitic exclusionist whose ideas were antithesis to the country I hold dear,
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  26. #26
    Needs more flowers Moderator drone's Avatar
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    Default Re: I have a dream today

    King had his issues, but I think for the most part he believed what he was saying. The real problem is what his family and "friends" like Sharpton have done, milking his legacy for personal gain. The wheels were turning is those heads before he was even in the ground.
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