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Thread: Another Gun Control Study

  1. #1
    Moderator Moderator Fisherking's Avatar
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    Lightbulb Another Gun Control Study

    Harvard Journal of Law and Public Policy

    Text: http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/...useronline.pdf


    Opinion from Columbia Public Policy Examiner: http://www.examiner.com/article/harv...n-t-save-lives

    Not what they expected to find.

    Oh well. I am sure facts won’t change anyone’s minds, especially here.


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    Part-Time Polemic Senior Member ICantSpellDawg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Another Gun Control Study

    Quote Originally Posted by Fisherking View Post
    Harvard Journal of Law and Public Policy

    Text: http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/...useronline.pdf


    Opinion from Columbia Public Policy Examiner: http://www.examiner.com/article/harv...n-t-save-lives

    Not what they expected to find.

    Oh well. I am sure facts won’t change anyone’s minds, especially here.
    That is not a recent study. It is a good one, a number of years old. The more recent one commissioned by the White House is the one that is most useful to our cause, ironically.
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    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Another Gun Control Study

    I agree, it's the inherently violent American psyche and the blatant and celebrated inequality that make the American society violent and this can't be changed, guns or not. Americans are simply not ready for peace yet, it's the new frontier.


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    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Another Gun Control Study

    Quote Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube View Post
    Or, to flip your arrogant pith on its head, your small and easily managed European pseudo-states have the luxury of treating symptoms, not causes.
    Yet get a better result.


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  5. #5
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Another Gun Control Study

    Quote Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube View Post
    For now.
    You have any visions you want to share? When will the crime rate in the US be lower than those in most European countries without any cultural shift towards less violent approaches whatsoever? When you have finally shot every last criminal? When will that be?

    Oh and how is it arrogant to point out that it's the people who kill the people in the US? I thought that's kinda the point of the OP in the sense that it's certainly not the guns.
    Last edited by Husar; 08-31-2013 at 21:15.


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    Research Fiend Technical Administrator Tetris Champion, Boxteroid Champion, Summer Games Champion, Snakeman Champion, Ms Pacman Champion therother's Avatar
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    Default Re: Another Gun Control Study

    Luxembourg has a small population, about half a million, i.e. this 9/100k means there were only 45 murders. It also has unusual demographics. Unsurprising given the small number, the murder rate appears to fluctuate considerably. Two years after the study (i.e. 2004) the murder rate was 0.4/100k.

    Curiously, the figure in the report is quite different from the UNODC rate for 2002 (1.4/100k or 9).

    I've just skimmed the report, but from the snippets quoted in the Columbia Public Policy Examiner it seems like a very superficial study, at least where the UK is concerned. For instance, the rise in violet crime in the UK after the handgun ban in the wake of the Dunblane shootings was likely due to other factors: the real question is whether it would have been higher, lower or the same if the ban had not been enacted.

    I suspect gun ownership in the UK was relatively low even pre-Dunblane, with registered firearms most dense in rural areas, which tend to have lower violent crime rates in general. So the correlation highlighted by the Examiner is highly unlikely to be causal.
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  7. #7
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Another Gun Control Study

    Quote Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube View Post
    You misunderstand. Our nation is huge. You don't even know the first thing about it. I say gun violence and you probably think inner city. I say gangs and you probably think black. The PR surrounding America's problems and issues is only ever half the story. You want to solve the sky-high crime rates in this country, you have to do it by fixing inequality all over the board. That means dealing with racial issues, that means dealing class issues, that means dealing with some capitalism issues.
    How does any of that oppose my point that your problem is "the blatant and celebrated inequality" from my first reply to this thread?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube View Post
    After all, knives are weapons of mass destruction in Europe. Changing laws only changes perspective. Your nations are small, your populations are small, and your people are accustomed to stricter limitations than we are. Band-Aid solutions work for band-aid level injuries.
    Knives are only WMDs in Britain and they are special anyway, just ask them.
    Your point about us being small is weird considering you also say cities have more crime because of the population density, yet your country also has more crime because it's huge. If a higher population density increases crime, then the USA should have far less crime than European countries. But that is not true, what is true is that you have a far more masculine culture that promotes violent solutions and the aforementioned inequality, which are the real problem.


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    The very model of a modern Moderator Xiahou's Avatar
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    Default Re: Another Gun Control Study

    You know, if you break the data down by ethnicity, you see that the US crime rates aren't that different than European countries.
    ....Just something to think about while you're looking down your noses at us.
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  9. #9
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Another Gun Control Study

    Quote Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube View Post
    You continue to misunderstand. That inequality and our culture of violence is a problem that needs solving. You won't solve it by banning guns. In fact, you'll never ban guns unless you solve it. But left-leaning politicians in America often like to propose gun control because it is an emotionally charged issue that can get them votes and spark controversy, not out of a desire to fix the problem. In America, the whole debate is a red herring.
    No, you misunderstand. I didn't say you have to ban guns, I said the real problem that needs to change is your culture, basically the same thing you say. You called my argument arrogant and then repeated it yourself but we actually agree on this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube View Post
    My point was lost, I guess. Population density is higher in Europe, but the nations are smaller and the administrative systems in place are far, far more effective for this sort of thing than ours ever will be. To act like we could enforce a gun ban even if it was enacted by Congress is to ignore some basic facts of our sprawling society. To fix our crime problems we have to fix our societal problems, but the guns will still be there either way.
    Only in the short term and since the rural areas are not the problem anyway, it doesn't matter as much if you cannot enforce the gun ban as effectively there, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Xiahou View Post
    You know, if you break the data down by ethnicity, you see that the US crime rates aren't that different than European countries.
    ....Just something to think about while you're looking down your noses at us.
    How? If I break an average down into several parts, the average stays the same, no? Or are you advocating that we ignore the crimes of certain ethnicities? Why would we?
    Last edited by Husar; 09-01-2013 at 10:03.


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  10. #10
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Another Gun Control Study

    Quote Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube View Post
    America is not so different from Europe. We aren't inherently more violent, but we do live in a society that is structured differently.
    It's time to stop blaming the structure of society and start to take personal responsibility and work towards changing society.
    If guns aren't the problem you should name the problem and think about what can be done instead of saying nothing can be done, that's defeatist.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube View Post
    Our challenge is solving the violence without getting rid of the guns, because they can't be gotten rid of.
    That's the same as in Europe and we figured out how to make people more peaceful. The amount of guns per capita in Europe is far higher than in some far more violent countries: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guns_per_capita

    Quote Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube View Post
    You really don't understand how big and lawless this country can really be.
    I could swear you just said it's not so different from Europe really. You also seemed to say that the violence issues are mostly an issue in cities, now you seem to say there are problems in the rural areas as well.
    Last edited by Husar; 09-01-2013 at 22:38.


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    Dyslexic agnostic insomniac Senior Member Goofball's Avatar
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    Default Re: Another Gun Control Study

    One problem with the study is that it focuses only on murders and suicides. Not total gun deaths. How many accidental deaths are there in the US? Or, how about cases where there is a not guilty verdict in a shooting death, that, had one of the participants not been armed, would not have had a lethal outcome (Trayvon Martin, for example). I think the very fact that you have "stand your ground laws" which more or less allow Americans to get away with gun violence that would be considered criminal in most other nations will always fundamentally flaw any study about gun violence that only looks at the "murder" rate in the US. There are plenty of gun deaths that are not murders or suicides. Having said that, I am not totally opposed to private gun ownership. My views have been evolving considerably on this matter over the past couple of years. I can understand people being protective of their right to own a gun. What I can't understand is the sillyness about gun registration. As a nation, you sat (more or less) idly by while your rights were massively infringed upon by laws like the Patriot Act, and now polls are showing a majority of Americans don't even mind that the government is monitoring your emails. But filling out a form and submitting to a background check to buy a gun is apparently crossing the line. Ridiculous.
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    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
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    Default Re: Another Gun Control Study

    Informed choice.

    Chose to have or not have guns in an informed manner. Understand that guns are an effective killing tool otherwise we would have tanks mounted with giant lances not guns.

    Every action or lack of action has consequences. Best way to chose is with as much accurate information as possible.
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    Default Re: Another Gun Control Study

    If guns aren't the problem you should name the problem and think about what can be done instead of saying nothing can be done, that's defeatist.
    Xiahou already identified the problem, and we can't very well ship them back to Africa at this point.
    Last edited by PanzerJaeger; 09-02-2013 at 05:07.

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    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Another Gun Control Study

    Quote Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger View Post
    Xiahou already identified the problem, and we can't very well ship them back to Africa at this point.
    Oh that's great, now that you're past racism in the USA I guess that's also okay to say.


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    Moderator Moderator Fisherking's Avatar
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    Default Re: Another Gun Control Study

    Quote Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger View Post
    Xiahou already identified the problem, and we can't very well ship them back to Africa at this point.
    That is a bad guess.

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    Oh that's great, now that you're past racism in the USA I guess that's also okay to say.
    Hold your horses!

    It is the breakdown of the family unit and the rise of a gangster culture if we are tossing out theories. A lack of positive male role models.

    This may be more prevalent among modern black males but it is not exclusive to them.

    Subcultures that celebrate lawlessness and whacking ones enemies while going out in a blaze of glory.

    Instilling such ideals and reinforced by peer pressure is not going to make for a peaceful crime free social network. A society were the heroes shun education, by dropping out of school to get rich selling drugs and killing off the competition (literally) is not going to reduce the crime rate.

    It is more a culture of an angry tragic warrior society. Disassembling that is what is needed. It doesn’t matter what weapons are available. Take away one type and you only change their tactics, not their motivation.




    Quote Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube View Post
    How do you foster a sense of community and brotherhood between disparate groups of people who must either live together or resort to barbarism? What creates the bond, or can it be created? I have some ideas, but I'd love to hear yours.
    Me too!


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  16. #16
    Part-Time Polemic Senior Member ICantSpellDawg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Another Gun Control Study

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    Oh that's great, now that you're past racism in the USA I guess that's also okay to say.

    It is true. In the US we are allowed to say politically incorrect things that are true. As I've stated before, all of America's problems are the result of slavery. Both the importation of forced labor, the dehumanization of those people and the warped culture that has resulted from the trauma.

    White subcultures are beginning to mimic the destructive nihilism of America black communities. High out of wedlock birthrates, low educational attainment, high crime rates. While many Black's are trying to get away from this poisonous lifestyle caused largely by mans inhumanity to man, too many whites are eager to take their place. Our homicide rates, even if you extract black and Hispanic high risk populations from the numbers, are still generally a bit higher than western european nations, although homogenous white populations on both sides of the Atlantic are pretty low risk. Violent crime rates for Europeans are much higher than the rates in the American white population, even higher than the rates for all Americans.. White Americans do drive the suicide numbers, but man has a night to kill himself, even though it is immoral to use the right.

    I was ok with background checks (even thought they are largely pointless at this stage where everyone owns tons of guns) on all sales in exchange for some gains, but the Democrats can't be trusted to enact anything but a poison pill against gun rights. Unfortunately nobody else understands the art of compromise, its one way or the other. I have nothing against defensive shootings. In the US, people should know that it you assault someone who is alone in the middle of the night, that could be the end of you. Hands to yourself, don't threaten or menace people with violence.

    I have no idea how to solve the problem, but I love guns and I love the second amendment, and my (numerous) firearms should never commit a crime, so come and take them.
    Last edited by ICantSpellDawg; 09-02-2013 at 13:24.
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  17. #17
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Another Gun Control Study

    Quote Originally Posted by Fisherking View Post
    Hold your horses!

    It is the breakdown of the family unit and the rise of a gangster culture if we are tossing out theories. A lack of positive male role models.

    This may be more prevalent among modern black males but it is not exclusive to them.

    Subcultures that celebrate lawlessness and whacking ones enemies while going out in a blaze of glory.

    Instilling such ideals and reinforced by peer pressure is not going to make for a peaceful crime free social network. A society were the heroes shun education, by dropping out of school to get rich selling drugs and killing off the competition (literally) is not going to reduce the crime rate.

    It is more a culture of an angry tragic warrior society. Disassembling that is what is needed. It doesn’t matter what weapons are available. Take away one type and you only change their tactics, not their motivation.
    That's a good post, pretty much what I said from the beginning.


    The problem with PJ's post is that he seems to blame it all on the blacks and apparently insinuates the only way to solve it is to remove black people from the country. Sending the economoically downtrodden to other countries is what half the third world is trying but it doesn't seem to solve their issues so far. Unless you think the problem is coming from the colour of their skin or their racial heritage, in which case it's pretty much a racist argument.


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  18. #18
    Moderator Moderator Fisherking's Avatar
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    Default Re: Another Gun Control Study

    No, it most certainly is not a product of skin color.

    The weather gage of a violent society in the past was the number of unmarried young males there were.

    With a society that now seems to shun marriage, it has not done much to correct its own ills.


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    Tovenaar Senior Member The Wizard's Avatar
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    Default Re: Another Gun Control Study

    The only thing that the article in the OP shows decisively is that the murder rate has to do with much more than the legality of firearms. It emphatically does not show that making guns freely available is A-OK, or that widespread gun ownership has nothing to do with the murder rate.

    Very interesting in this regard is an interview Steven Pinker (whom you may know as the guy who published a very successful book which, IMHO, errs on the side of excessive liberal optimism) took of one of my former professors, Pieter Spierenburg. The latter's a historical crimonologist and sociologist who studies the long-term decline of violent crime since the late Middle Ages. It's interesting to note that there's been a slight increase in the rate of violent crime in Western societies since the 1960s, the first rise since the 1400s. A condition of postmodernity?

    EDIT: Important, but forgot to mention that there's a long statement on the USA, at 15:00 in the interview recording.
    Last edited by The Wizard; 09-02-2013 at 19:27.
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    Default Re: Another Gun Control Study

    Just out of curiosity, how are the finding correlated to lead (Pb) levels?

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    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Another Gun Control Study

    Quote Originally Posted by HopAlongBunny View Post
    Just out of curiosity, how are the finding correlated to lead (Pb) levels?

    http://http://www.motherjones.com/en...-link-gasoline
    I brought that up in one of the last gun threads already, I have figured since then that high lead levels are just a result of the American psyche, which is, as most of us seem to agree, the major underlying problem. How to change the American Psyche in regards to lead levels, environmental protection and non-violent problem solving is the real question here. So far sending all black people back to Africa has been proposed and opposed.


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    Default Re: Another Gun Control Study

    I oppose reduction to 'national character'.
    Vitiate Man.

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    Apr 04-Nov 11 Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Re: Another Gun Control Study

    I feel like we've finally come full circle.

    The black population are not our brothers or our countrymen, they are merely a statistical anomaly, one that prevents us from being just as good as Europe. If it weren't for these people we'd just be living high on the hog.

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    Last edited by Beskar; 09-03-2013 at 03:18.
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    Dyslexic agnostic insomniac Senior Member Goofball's Avatar
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    Default Re: Another Gun Control Study

    Hey Strike, you drunk? Might want to edit that one, my friend.
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    Apr 04-Nov 11 Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Re: Another Gun Control Study

    Quote Originally Posted by Goofball View Post
    Hey Strike, you drunk? Might want to edit that one, my friend.
    No I am sober. No, we should definitely just get to brass tax.

    It's disgusting and lazy, the sort of analysis that goes on here. 13% of the population can just be cut and discarded like they are some burdensome anomaly and not "real" Americans. Absolute crap.
    There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford

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    I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.

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    Part-Time Polemic Senior Member ICantSpellDawg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Another Gun Control Study

    Clearly, black culture and the shackles of slavery are a blight on us historically and that blight continues. On the plus side, individually, many blacks have contributed greatly to our cultural development. The fact that the issue of profoundly heterogeneous population strife has been forced on us has meant that we've needed to address it head-on. This skill is greatly valuable in a globalized world if we can figure out how to do it correctly. Make lemonade out of lemons and we'll all be better for it.
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    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Default Re: Another Gun Control Study

    Quote Originally Posted by ICantSpellDawg View Post
    Clearly, black culture and the shackles of slavery are a blight on us historically and that blight continues.
    ... and there's a direct correlation between the War on Drugs, the mass incarceration of black males, and the breakdown of the black family.

    We've done them no favors. This is not to excuse the dysfunction of black culture in America, but they didn't get there by themselves.

    Ending the War on Drugs would be the sanest thing to do, so obviously we won't do it.
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    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, Cub Shoot 2 Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Treasure Diver Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Slack Man Champion, Japanese Baseball Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Super Mario Mushroom Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Fish Kill Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, KF 9000 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Another Gun Control Study

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemur View Post
    ... and there's a direct correlation between the War on Drugs, the mass incarceration of black males, and the breakdown of the black family.

    We've done them no favors. This is not to excuse the dysfunction of black culture in America, but they didn't get there by themselves.

    Ending the War on Drugs would be the sanest thing to do, so obviously we won't do it.
    The percentage of unwed mothers and the proliferation of single-parent families have surged across the board since 1960. It isn't the breakdown of the black family, but of the entire concept of the nuclear family. More than half of all women having children before the age of 30 are doing so without benefit of marriage.

    Has the black family been torn to pieces in the wake of the Great Society -- yes. But you could make an argument that things have worsened on this issue even more among whites and hispanics, given their 1960 baseline on these issues when compared to Americans of African descent.


    Panzer:

    Xi' specificied "ethnicity" -- a term far more specifically linked to culture. YOU were the one who tossed out the racist jibe. Tell me, are you still hanging on to your copy of "The Protocols of Zion" or keeping your copies of Lenz and Fischer's stuff handy?

    On some issues you make a good point or two, then you "balance" it out with vile excrement like that posted above. Loathsome.
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    Part-Time Polemic Senior Member ICantSpellDawg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Another Gun Control Study

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemur View Post
    ... and there's a direct correlation between the War on Drugs, the mass incarceration of black males, and the breakdown of the black family.

    We've done them no favors. This is not to excuse the dysfunction of black culture in America, but they didn't get there by themselves.

    Ending the War on Drugs would be the sanest thing to do, so obviously we won't do it.
    I agree. The war on drugs, the mass incarceration of black males are directly the result of soft racism and should be undone. Give me concealed carry rights, legalize all drugs and open the prison cells for all non-violent drug offenders.
    Last edited by ICantSpellDawg; 09-04-2013 at 00:14.
    "That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there."
    -Eric "George Orwell" Blair

    "If the policy of the government, upon vital questions affecting the whole people, is to be irrevocably fixed by decisions of the Supreme Court...the people will have ceased to be their own rulers, having to that extent practically resigned the government into the hands of that eminent tribunal."
    (Lincoln's First Inaugural Address, 1861).
    ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

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    Ni dieu ni maître! Senior Member a completely inoffensive name's Avatar
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    Default Re: Another Gun Control Study

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    The percentage of unwed mothers and the proliferation of single-parent families have surged across the board since 1960. It isn't the breakdown of the black family, but of the entire concept of the nuclear family. More than half of all women having children before the age of 30 are doing so without benefit of marriage.
    It is quite creepy the growth of American Hikikomori along with the trends you have pointed out.

    Women are enjoying a freer, more sexually liberated, economically beneficial life than ever before. Men seem to be deteriorating and disappearing before our eyes whether from draconian drug laws, or from their own declining mental health.

    It's too bad the only people who talk about male issues tend to be the socially stunted neckbeards online.
    In all these papers we see a love of honest work, an aversion to shams, a caution in the enunciation of conclusions, a distrust of rash generalizations and speculations based on uncertain premises. He was never anxious to add one more guess on doubtful matters in the hope of hitting the truth, or what might pass as such for a time, but was always ready to take infinite pains in the most careful testing of every theory. With these qualities was united a modesty which forbade the pushing of his own claims and desired no reputation except the unsought tribute of competent judges.

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