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  1. #1
    Senior Member Senior Member Fisherking's Avatar
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    Lightbulb Another Gun Control Study

    Harvard Journal of Law and Public Policy

    Text: http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/...useronline.pdf


    Opinion from Columbia Public Policy Examiner: http://www.examiner.com/article/harv...n-t-save-lives

    Not what they expected to find.

    Oh well. I am sure facts won’t change anyone’s minds, especially here.


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  2. #2
    Part-Time Polemic Senior Member ICantSpellDawg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Another Gun Control Study

    Quote Originally Posted by Fisherking View Post
    Harvard Journal of Law and Public Policy

    Text: http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/...useronline.pdf


    Opinion from Columbia Public Policy Examiner: http://www.examiner.com/article/harv...n-t-save-lives

    Not what they expected to find.

    Oh well. I am sure facts won’t change anyone’s minds, especially here.
    That is not a recent study. It is a good one, a number of years old. The more recent one commissioned by the White House is the one that is most useful to our cause, ironically.
    "That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there."
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  3. #3
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Another Gun Control Study

    I agree, it's the inherently violent American psyche and the blatant and celebrated inequality that make the American society violent and this can't be changed, guns or not. Americans are simply not ready for peace yet, it's the new frontier.


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    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Another Gun Control Study

    Quote Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube View Post
    Or, to flip your arrogant pith on its head, your small and easily managed European pseudo-states have the luxury of treating symptoms, not causes.
    Yet get a better result.


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  5. #5
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Another Gun Control Study

    Quote Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube View Post
    For now.
    You have any visions you want to share? When will the crime rate in the US be lower than those in most European countries without any cultural shift towards less violent approaches whatsoever? When you have finally shot every last criminal? When will that be?

    Oh and how is it arrogant to point out that it's the people who kill the people in the US? I thought that's kinda the point of the OP in the sense that it's certainly not the guns.
    Last edited by Husar; 08-31-2013 at 21:15.


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  6. #6
    Research Fiend Technical Administrator Tetris Champion, Summer Games Champion, Snakeman Champion, Ms Pacman Champion therother's Avatar
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    Default Re: Another Gun Control Study

    Luxembourg has a small population, about half a million, i.e. this 9/100k means there were only 45 murders. It also has unusual demographics. Unsurprising given the small number, the murder rate appears to fluctuate considerably. Two years after the study (i.e. 2004) the murder rate was 0.4/100k.

    Curiously, the figure in the report is quite different from the UNODC rate for 2002 (1.4/100k or 9).

    I've just skimmed the report, but from the snippets quoted in the Columbia Public Policy Examiner it seems like a very superficial study, at least where the UK is concerned. For instance, the rise in violet crime in the UK after the handgun ban in the wake of the Dunblane shootings was likely due to other factors: the real question is whether it would have been higher, lower or the same if the ban had not been enacted.

    I suspect gun ownership in the UK was relatively low even pre-Dunblane, with registered firearms most dense in rural areas, which tend to have lower violent crime rates in general. So the correlation highlighted by the Examiner is highly unlikely to be causal.
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  7. #7
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Another Gun Control Study

    Quote Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube View Post
    You misunderstand. Our nation is huge. You don't even know the first thing about it. I say gun violence and you probably think inner city. I say gangs and you probably think black. The PR surrounding America's problems and issues is only ever half the story. You want to solve the sky-high crime rates in this country, you have to do it by fixing inequality all over the board. That means dealing with racial issues, that means dealing class issues, that means dealing with some capitalism issues.
    How does any of that oppose my point that your problem is "the blatant and celebrated inequality" from my first reply to this thread?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube View Post
    After all, knives are weapons of mass destruction in Europe. Changing laws only changes perspective. Your nations are small, your populations are small, and your people are accustomed to stricter limitations than we are. Band-Aid solutions work for band-aid level injuries.
    Knives are only WMDs in Britain and they are special anyway, just ask them.
    Your point about us being small is weird considering you also say cities have more crime because of the population density, yet your country also has more crime because it's huge. If a higher population density increases crime, then the USA should have far less crime than European countries. But that is not true, what is true is that you have a far more masculine culture that promotes violent solutions and the aforementioned inequality, which are the real problem.


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  8. #8
    Part-Time Polemic Senior Member ICantSpellDawg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Another Gun Control Study

    Clearly, black culture and the shackles of slavery are a blight on us historically and that blight continues. On the plus side, individually, many blacks have contributed greatly to our cultural development. The fact that the issue of profoundly heterogeneous population strife has been forced on us has meant that we've needed to address it head-on. This skill is greatly valuable in a globalized world if we can figure out how to do it correctly. Make lemonade out of lemons and we'll all be better for it.
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  9. #9
    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Default Re: Another Gun Control Study

    Quote Originally Posted by ICantSpellDawg View Post
    Clearly, black culture and the shackles of slavery are a blight on us historically and that blight continues.
    ... and there's a direct correlation between the War on Drugs, the mass incarceration of black males, and the breakdown of the black family.

    We've done them no favors. This is not to excuse the dysfunction of black culture in America, but they didn't get there by themselves.

    Ending the War on Drugs would be the sanest thing to do, so obviously we won't do it.

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  10. #10
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Another Gun Control Study

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemur View Post
    ... and there's a direct correlation between the War on Drugs, the mass incarceration of black males, and the breakdown of the black family.

    We've done them no favors. This is not to excuse the dysfunction of black culture in America, but they didn't get there by themselves.

    Ending the War on Drugs would be the sanest thing to do, so obviously we won't do it.
    The percentage of unwed mothers and the proliferation of single-parent families have surged across the board since 1960. It isn't the breakdown of the black family, but of the entire concept of the nuclear family. More than half of all women having children before the age of 30 are doing so without benefit of marriage.

    Has the black family been torn to pieces in the wake of the Great Society -- yes. But you could make an argument that things have worsened on this issue even more among whites and hispanics, given their 1960 baseline on these issues when compared to Americans of African descent.


    Panzer:

    Xi' specificied "ethnicity" -- a term far more specifically linked to culture. YOU were the one who tossed out the racist jibe. Tell me, are you still hanging on to your copy of "The Protocols of Zion" or keeping your copies of Lenz and Fischer's stuff handy?

    On some issues you make a good point or two, then you "balance" it out with vile excrement like that posted above. Loathsome.
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

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  11. #11

    Default Re: Another Gun Control Study

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    The percentage of unwed mothers and the proliferation of single-parent families have surged across the board since 1960. It isn't the breakdown of the black family, but of the entire concept of the nuclear family. More than half of all women having children before the age of 30 are doing so without benefit of marriage.
    It is quite creepy the growth of American Hikikomori along with the trends you have pointed out.

    Women are enjoying a freer, more sexually liberated, economically beneficial life than ever before. Men seem to be deteriorating and disappearing before our eyes whether from draconian drug laws, or from their own declining mental health.

    It's too bad the only people who talk about male issues tend to be the socially stunted neckbeards online.

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  12. #12

    Default Re: Another Gun Control Study

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post

    Panzer:

    Xi' specificied "ethnicity" -- a term far more specifically linked to culture. YOU were the one who tossed out the racist jibe. Tell me, are you still hanging on to your copy of "The Protocols of Zion" or keeping your copies of Lenz and Fischer's stuff handy?

    On some issues you make a good point or two, then you "balance" it out with vile excrement like that posted above. Loathsome.

    Spare me your righteous indignation. Your problem appears to be with statistics, not me. Remove blacks and control for every other socioeconomic factor and America's quality of life metrics fall right in line with Western Europe and the advanced Commonwealth nations. It is quite tiring to read the same stale pontifications on the 'problem' with American culture, each carefully crafted to avoid the obvious. The emperor has no clothes, and black people kill a lot of black people.

    I've lived on both sides of the Atlantic and I know that the America I live in, and that ~98% of Americans live in, is no more violent than Western Europe. In fact, I would wager that street crime and randomized violence is a bit lower in most parts of the states, especially in comparison to Britain. America simply has a number of clearly delineated pockets within major urban areas that are quite literally more third world than Somalia. Europe certainly has issues with Muslim immigrants, similar to those we have with Mexican immigrants to an extent, but Europe does not have to deal with a sizable failed minority group in the same way that the US does.

    So instead of reaching for obscure, all encompassing, and ultimately meaningless explanations for America's 'violent culture', lets examine the violence as it actually exists, which happens to be almost exclusively within high concentrations of black people.

    Quote Originally Posted by GC
    How do you foster a sense of community and brotherhood between disparate groups of people who must either live together or resort to barbarism? What creates the bond, or can it be created? I have some ideas, but I'd love to hear yours.
    I do not have an answer to the black problem. As part of my curriculum in high school, I had to volunteer at a local mission school serving primarily black families. I enjoyed the children and felt like I was having a positive impact on their lives so I continued on for some years after. Watching those sweet little kids that I knew as eight and nine year olds turn into thugs when they hit their teens was one of the saddest, most disappointing parts of my life. I quit after a few years of seeing my original kids growing into a dead end life of dependence and dysfunction. The culture is just too strong, and there is no support at home encouraging them to be anything other than trash.

    Given the circumstances in which blacks were brought to this country, I believe few other racial/ethnic groups deserve to thrive in the US more. But you cannot force people to strive for better, you cannot make them take advantage of the benefits society puts in place to help them succeed. The stark reality I've observed in my time living and working among American blacks that isn't often written about is the widely shared satisfaction with it all. They are comfortable with the poverty, the violence, and the failure of the family structure because it is all they know at this point. It's that vicious satisfaction in chaos that limits potential and fosters a 'dream smaller' culture where driving an '86 Chevy Caprice with spinners is a symbol of status and not an embarrassment.

    I don't know how to fix the problem, but I do know that blaming it all on the War on Drugs and 'soft racism' is simply perpetuating the victim culture that decimated the black community after the Civil Rights Movement and the Great Society. Asians, Irish, Catholics, Hispanics, Muslims, and all manner of other racial/ethnic groups have undergone intense discrimination in this country and prospered despite it. Only blacks and Native Americans have been allowed to indulge in a seemingly never ending, multi-generational victim status, and look where they are today.
    Last edited by PanzerJaeger; 09-04-2013 at 04:37.

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  13. #13
    Arena Senior Member Crazed Rabbit's Avatar
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    Default Re: Another Gun Control Study

    I believe Panzer errors greatly by seeing the wayward actions or crimes of some black people and acting as though they represent all black people, or that violence and poverty is the defining 'black culture'.

    Does anyone talk about white people in trailer parks taking meth like candy as "white culture"? No - we simply label them white trash (thus neatly separating them from 'real' "white culture"), and nobody argues that they represent all white people.

    CR
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  14. #14
    Part-Time Polemic Senior Member ICantSpellDawg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Another Gun Control Study

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemur View Post
    ... and there's a direct correlation between the War on Drugs, the mass incarceration of black males, and the breakdown of the black family.

    We've done them no favors. This is not to excuse the dysfunction of black culture in America, but they didn't get there by themselves.

    Ending the War on Drugs would be the sanest thing to do, so obviously we won't do it.
    I agree. The war on drugs, the mass incarceration of black males are directly the result of soft racism and should be undone. Give me concealed carry rights, legalize all drugs and open the prison cells for all non-violent drug offenders.
    Last edited by ICantSpellDawg; 09-04-2013 at 00:14.
    "That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there."
    -Eric "George Orwell" Blair

    "If the policy of the government, upon vital questions affecting the whole people, is to be irrevocably fixed by decisions of the Supreme Court...the people will have ceased to be their own rulers, having to that extent practically resigned the government into the hands of that eminent tribunal."
    (Lincoln's First Inaugural Address, 1861).
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