hastati vs principes

[archangelmmii]

are principes just upgraded hastati? or is there some difference.

When i got the tech to build principes i too half my hastati in both my armies to make two new armies and then filled those four armies with pricipes and triarii. i used the units traditionally, first line hastati second line pricipes and third line triarii. I figured the hastati would be replinish faster than pricipes the same as ashugari replinish faster than samuri making them a good first line. But its seems that they replinish at the same rate as principes.

[Greyblades]

In my first real siege, after 4 units of hastati were desmolished by archers while burning down a gatehouse my 2 units of principes waltzed right into the middle of an entire gaelic garrisson and proceeded to massacre every single one of them. This and later performances have lead me to believe that princepes are the stormtrooper of the early roman roster and the hastati are cannon fodder.

So basically yes they are just upgraded hastati, stick em on the front lines and move the hastati to protect the home provinces, maybe keep afew in your main army as arrow sponges

[Quillan]

I suspect that replenishment rate is based upon the number of men in the unit at full strength. Ashigaru units were bigger than samurai units, so they got more men per turn back. Hastati and Principes are the same unit size; principes just have (much) better armor.

[Jarmam]

Think this thread sort of covers what Im baffled by now.

So I just decided to finally get the Cohort Reforms after 100 turns (a limitation I set up for myself, which incidently coincided almost perfectly with the civil war, giving me a "reason" to reform), and I got my Legionaries and Vet Legionaries. I then upgrade the Barracks to unlock Praetorians and First Cohorts.

Here's my question: When, in any situation ever, would I ever want Legionaries over Vet Legionaries? The Vets are much more cost-effective in upkeep, they require the exact same amount of tech and have no immediate drawbacks. And this extends to Praetorians and First Cohorts. Why would I not build these over Vets?
Why does the "Armored Legionary" unit exist, if, in order to get it, I need 30+ turns worth of research and 1 extra tier of Barracks to get them compared to getting Praetorians that are infinitely better for a minute price increase? Am I missing something? So far it seems there is no limit to how many Praetorians or First Cohorts I can field.

I understand that this isn't about historic accuracy, and having Praetorians as fieldable spammable Legion troops doesn't bother me for that reason. What I don't understand is why I unlock 4 different kinds of Legionaries - 2 instantly and 2 with a Barracks upgrade - that are, at glance, completely identical in all aspects except some are just straight up better than others for a comparably cheaper cost. And what really puzzles me is why there is another tier of Barracks that gives a massive 12 squalor which, among other things, unlocks another Legionary unit that is an upgrade over the crappiest Legionary unit from the tier 1 post-Cohort Rax, and thus much weaker than the Praetorian or First Cohort unit that comes from the 4 squalor Rax you need... to get... the Armored Legionary...

What am I missing?

[fallen851]

Think this thread sort of covers what Im baffled by now.

So I just decided to finally get the Cohort Reforms after 100 turns (a limitation I set up for myself, which incidently coincided almost perfectly with the civil war, giving me a "reason" to reform), and I got my Legionaries and Vet Legionaries. I then upgrade the Barracks to unlock Praetorians and First Cohorts.

Here's my question: When, in any situation ever, would I ever want Legionaries over Vet Legionaries? The Vets are much more cost-effective in upkeep, they require the exact same amount of tech and have no immediate drawbacks. And this extends to Praetorians and First Cohorts. Why would I not build these over Vets?
Why does the "Armored Legionary" unit exist, if, in order to get it, I need 30+ turns worth of research and 1 extra tier of Barracks to get them compared to getting Praetorians that are infinitely better for a minute price increase? Am I missing something? So far it seems there is no limit to how many Praetorians or First Cohorts I can field.

I understand that this isn't about historic accuracy, and having Praetorians as fieldable spammable Legion troops doesn't bother me for that reason. What I don't understand is why I unlock 4 different kinds of Legionaries - 2 instantly and 2 with a Barracks upgrade - that are, at glance, completely identical in all aspects except some are just straight up better than others for a comparably cheaper cost. And what really puzzles me is why there is another tier of Barracks that gives a massive 12 squalor which, among other things, unlocks another Legionary unit that is an upgrade over the crappiest Legionary unit from the tier 1 post-Cohort Rax, and thus much weaker than the Praetorian or First Cohort unit that comes from the 4 squalor Rax you need... to get... the Armored Legionary...

What am I missing?

You're not missing anything. It was basically the same in RTW. You'd hit the reforms, get a bunch of new units, and a bunch of them would be obsolete as soon as you got them.

I think CA expects us to role play that element of the game?

[Jarmam]

Yes, sort of, but in Rome 1 the only really obsolete unit was "Early Legionary Cohorts". True, getting the higher tier Cohorts was easy, but you at least had to upgrade the Barracks (meaning being in a large city) to upgrade the next tier of infantry. Praetorians were kind of weird given that they spawned from the t5 Governor's House, but that was at least late tier and tied with Urban Cohorts in terms of tier. So everything (except Early Cohorts) were direct upgrades from directly upgraded buildings and tiers, except First Cohorts who were limited to 1 city (Rome) and came with a morale bonus and other interesting features.

In Rome 2, however, I litterally tech towards infinitely weaker units at the 12 squalor Rax. True, it also unlocks the Praetorian Guards, but... why does it unlock weaker units than the earlier Rax? And why, for the love of Jupiter, why can I unlock not just Legionaries at turn 20 or so (already scandalous), but also Praetorians!? These guys melt so much face that they are rumored to have to wear masks as to not melt eachothers'!

What Im trying to get at, besides poor polish, is that this must either be terrible balance or a straight up bug. I was kind of hoping I'd missed something about unit caps or a penalty for losing First Cohorts or maybe Praetorians would plot against you and assassinate your General or something... if they're just "there"... I don't even... just why?

Yeah, this bothers me more than it should ^^

[Jarmam]

All right, I finally figured it out. Turns out I did miss something - that you can upgrade a type of unit (ex Triarii) to a higher tier of unit (in this case Veteran Legionaries). So the Armored Legionaries exist so that you can upgrade leftover basic Legionaries if you reach the latest tech instead of disbanding them. So they're not entirely obsolete as I thought.

The Praetorian thing 15ish turns into the campaign... yeah... but a mod will fix that.

Now I can finally spend my time looking for real issues to complain about.

[phred]

All right, I finally figured it out. Turns out I did miss something - that you can upgrade a type of unit (ex Triarii) to a higher tier of unit (in this case Veteran Legionaries). So the Armored Legionaries exist so that you can upgrade leftover basic Legionaries if you reach the latest tech instead of disbanding them. So they're not entirely obsolete as I thought.

The Praetorian thing 15ish turns into the campaign... yeah... but a mod will fix that.

Now I can finally spend my time looking for real issues to complain about.

It's really nice that you can upgrade Hastati to Legionnaires. Legionnaires seem to have about the same stats as Princepes, except that I seemed to be losing a couple of stat points here and there when I upgraded the Princepes to Legionnaires.

A little OT but does the Roman AI upgrade it's units to Legionnaires?
They were eliminated too early in my current Carthage campaign for them to upgrade.
I think I'll play an eastern faction next and give Rome the opportunity to expand.

[BroskiDerpman]

Interesting, though teching up to Marian seems quite fast, would Praetorians be better if you had the money? Or perhaps armored Legions. Closest unit in that category is Oathsworn in which I believe shreds Praetorians for breakfast.

[andrewt]

Marian reforms happen very fast because of how the tech tree is designed. The early technologies come very fast compared to the later ones. I'm at 250%+ research and some techs still take more than 10 turns to research. In contrast, some of the earlier techs only take around 3 turns to research even at 100% at the start of the game.

What that means is you can make a beeline for Marian reforms before doing any economic research.

[phred]

Interesting, though teching up to Marian seems quite fast, would Praetorians be better if you had the money? Or perhaps armored Legions. Closest unit in that category is Oathsworn in which I believe shreds Praetorians for breakfast.

If you beeline, you can recruit Legionnaires and Veteran Legionnaires on turn 13 from the same level barracks that trains princepes.
It's easier to just upgrade all your hastati to Legionnaires.
By turn 18 you've built the next level barracks and can train First Cohorts and Praetorians.

If you have the money, Praetorians and First Cohorts are better, but Veteran Legionnaires have good stats too.

If you want to use hastati, princepes, triarii for a while, you'll still have a great army, and you can put all your early research into economy, building, philosophy.

[quadalpha]

If you beeline, you can recruit Legionnaires and Veteran Legionnaires on turn 13 from the same level barracks that trains princepes.
It's easier to just upgrade all your hastati to Legionnaires.
By turn 18 you've built the next level barracks and can train First Cohorts and Praetorians.

If you have the money, Praetorians and First Cohorts are better, but Veteran Legionnaires have good stats too.

If you want to use hastati, princepes, triarii for a while, you'll still have a great army, and you can put all your early research into economy, building, philosophy.

First cohorts are just veteran legionaries with slightly worse charge, defence, and morale, right? Well, except they have an 'encourage' ability that I've never used and don't know anything about.

[Jarmam]

First Cohorts are comparable to Vet Legionaries in that they're Legionaries+, but a FC has a morale boosting aura like a general instead of really good stats.

Praetorians beat everything at turn 18. Better stats than the other types, while also sporting the morale thing. Also they're really cheap for just how good they are.

[Veho Nex]

are principes just upgraded hastati? or is there some difference.

When i got the tech to build principes i too half my hastati in both my armies to make two new armies and then filled those four armies with pricipes and triarii. i used the units traditionally, first line hastati second line pricipes and third line triarii. I figured the hastati would be replinish faster than pricipes the same as ashugari replinish faster than samuri making them a good first line. But its seems that they replinish at the same rate as principes.

If you wanted to goto a historical route think about it this way.

Hastati are your cannon fodder. Send them in first to hold the enemy and soak up the damage. They are cheap and are easy to replace. Most units taking only 2 or 3 turns to go back to full strength after losing 75% or more of their men. Behind the hastati come the principes who are your main fighting force. With higher morale and the fact that they are normally supposed to enter the fight second they make great fighting units.

If you wanted to use them historically set your troops up so that your hastati are about 20 meters in front of your principes. In either a long thin line (2 or 3 men deep) or blocks of men with enough space for another block to move between them. When your men engage the enemy have the hastati charge first while your principes walk towards the enemy. If planned right you can have 2 devastating charges combined with pilum throws.

A big reason you use blocks of men with large gaps between them is because historically that would allow the skirmishers to move through the roman lines without disrupting the formation. Also in the game a lot of people look at those spaces as ways to flank the blocks then your principes slam home and you get a massive flank going on with heavy inf.

[quadalpha]

The pilum throw always looks like a great way to inflict friendly fire to me. Have people figured out how to get a unit to charge without it?

[CaptainCrunch]

The pilum throw always looks like a great way to inflict friendly fire to me. Have people figured out how to get a unit to charge without it?

It can indeed, if you're not careful. The game should have the option to charge without them and to throw them without charging (like RTW).

[Sp4]

Yeah.. I'd so love it if you could charge without throwing pilums or throwing them without charging. I'd also like it if not every unit that isn't a hoplite has them.

Also yes, they're great at causing friendly fire deaths, like really great. The way you want to send the Hastati first and Principes second, the Hastati are probably going to take something like 10-30% casualties from getting spears thrown in their backs. They might even shield the enemy from the majority of the 'volley'.

[Veho Nex]

To charge your Romans without using a pilum toss you have to get so close to the enemy you almost give up any charge bonus you might have.

Also, you guys don't understand. Hastati are there to be used and sacrificed. As long as you aren't Pilum tossing the back of your principes you will be fine.

Here is a screenshot showing a rough set up for me.



As you can see, the velites are in a thin long line in front of the main units. There are large gaps between all the fighting inf and between the principes and hastati. The way this is set up is so that your cav can hold a flank long enough for the triarii to arrive and offer support. The principes are capable of moving either to the flanks or filling the gaps in the center of the line. Archers are used to pepper enemy units and the velites along with the hastati are a very effective meatshield for the principes.