A quick positive note about this community and post-release

[Hooahguy]

I gotta say, the qualities of the Org and this subforum really shone through since post-release. If you look on other forums, especially the official forums, there were/are flame wars going on about how CA is the devil and anyone that likes them is just as bad.

But I dont see any of that here, and I find that to be a testament to how great this community is. Kudos to everyone here for being top-notch people.

[Jarmam]

Going apeshit wont fix anything. Besides, it seems the consensus here is that if CA doesn't fix what people have of various issues with the game, the modding community will as soon as they can ^^

[Hooahguy]

Going apeshit wont fix anything. Besides, it seems the consensus here is that if CA doesn't fix what people have of various issues with the game, the modding community will as soon as they can ^^

Tell that to the people on the official forums and the TWC...

[AntiDamascus]

I am new here so I can't say if there is a tonal shift but outside of some dramatic "worst game ever!" stuff it's been fine. Nothing that makes me want to walk away from the forum as it were.

[Ibrahim]

Tell that to the people on the official forums and the TWC...

yeah, they get pretty wild over there....

anyways, the latest release has been a disappointment, but RTW (the first one), is always fun, so I can always go back to it, my mod (which is almost never ending ), and work. (while we're on that note, I could use volunteers for the SYW mod (See signature): it's for the Alex engine of Rome total war, and we are going along, though we could use a full team).

besides, as Jarmam pointed out, I'm sure someone will come around, fix the bugs, and make it worth playing. If not, again, we got the older titles. (though to level with you, this shouldn't really be necessary...)

[AussieGiant]

The official forums have been a write off for about 8 years. Most official forums are. It seems like level headed, realistic people simply don't bother getting all worked up about stuff. That just leaves the ADD type nut jobs frothing at the mouth providing feed back. Even reading that can get you all worked up even when you are pretty relaxed about how things are progressing.

That's why I'm here and have been for ages.

This game is immense, the coding is enormous and they do a great job getting a stable build out at release. Give it 2 to 5 weeks and you will have a top notch game with all the issues ironed out.

That's a good return on investment in my view. Managing your own expectations is the key. :)

[Myth]

.org rules, TWC drools!

[Barkhorn1x]

The adults tend to post here. TWC has their share - including me occasionally - but too many kids. The official forum is almost all kids.

[benjywa]

I read this then had a quote come up in game

"Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something." Plato

I think the wow forums are my favourite - I gave up on them in Vanilla, if you read them you would assume that everyone no longer plays, that the nerfs made it unplayable and every class was both OP and GIMPED at the same time. I am now fficially a very ex player - I have been clean for 2 years with no relapses :)

[fallen851]

Managing your own expectations is the key. :)

While it is important to remember that you can express a criticism about a product in a mature way, it is also important to remember that if someone is criticizes something, it doesn't mean they aren't being level headed or realistic. None of us would be on this forum or the TWC if we weren't interesting in TW games, and thus we want them to be awesome. The pursuit of excellence is one of the few things in this world you can't denounce from any angle.

For me, I only buy games that rate extremely well in reviewers that actually do a quality job reviewing (PC Gamer for instance).

Thus, I have high expectations for my games. And the majority I've bought and played, including last few (SC2, Crysis and League of Legends) all meet those expectations. Rome II does not. I vastly prefer Rome I, and will continue too play it unless the land battles in Rome II aren't tied to capture points and the game turns out to be as moddable as Rome I was.

While everyone is free to their own opinion, or as Donald Rumsfeld said, if you live in a free society you are free to make mistakes, I do believe strongly that some of you should expect and demand more for your hard earned money. I was lucky enough to get an early beta key for SC2 and SC2:HOTS and both these Beta builds were far more stable than Rome II at release. That is unacceptable to me. It is unacceptable for a game to be released in that state. CA needs to know this, so it doesn't happen again, because it has happened before. Taking a passive approach of "managing expectations" or thinking "we got the older titles" does nothing to fix the problem, and in fact, it exacerbates it. From one adult to another, I found this forum to be far too supportive of CA pre-release, ignoring obvious problems with the game that we saw in videos and reviews pre-release and assuming the would be fixed on release. Those kind of assumptions are something a child would make, given CA's history. An adult would stand up and put pressure on CA to fix them. Worse, these kind of opinions didn't change after release when proven wrong (as an adult opinion would), they morphed into "well you should expect these kind of issues and they will be fixed soon." When Valve releases a game, we don't see these kind of issues.

But of course, we are all entitled to our own opinion. I hope Rome II becomes great, but managing (lowering) my expectations until Rome II meets them is not the way for me to get a good return investment.

If you don't expect much from anything in life, you'll be happy with anything.

[Myth]

Eh, considering that I paid good money for Jay "DOUBLED IT" Wilson's Diablo III - The Auction House Simulator, I sure as hell ain't jumping on the Blizzard bandwagon any more. After their merging with Activision the quality in their games dropped. Even SC2 is full of corny cliches and doesn't quite capture the atmosphere of SC1. The multiplayer in SC2 is great though.

I'll give Rome II the benefit of the doubt because I have a feeling It will be a great game. If only we could run real hotseats on it...

[Spoonska]

Eh, considering that I paid good money for Jay "DOUBLED IT" Wilson's Diablo III - The Auction House Simulator, I sure as hell ain't jumping on the Blizzard bandwagon any more.

I second this. I've seen lots of people comparing Rome 2 launch to Diablo 3 launch, and while yes they didn't go as planned I think there's a pretty big divide in differences. When Diablo 3 launched, and during that first month people (including myself) were complaining about gameplay issues. Jay Wilson and his team's response was essentially YOU DON'T KNOW DIABLO. L2P. Anyone remember when the old Diablo 2 director said that he would have went in another direction? Jay Wilson's response was "F' that loser".

I don't really see CA doing any of that. They seem really invested in the communities response. It's very akin to times when a game is going through beta, and someone wants your feedback. Wink wink, nudge, nudge. But I digress. That's why I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt though. I think they deserve the criticism they're getting though.Because you should only release a game when it's polished.


I appreciate sanctuaries like this that allow for more game theory and discussion.

[ReluctantSamurai]

To fallen851:

Seeing as how your post indirectly points at me (not taking it personally, mind you) as one of those who were "far too supportive of CA pre-release", I have this to say to you:

Look at the comments of those actually playing it. Especially those who I would consider as veteran TW players (Lord of the Isles, Monk, quadalpha, andrewt, Captain Crunch, Barkhorh1x, Spoonska, amongst a few others at the moment) and the general, overall feeling could be summed up by these kinds of statements:

Good not great, needs some TLC and it will get there

So Rome II has its ups and downs. It pulls me in, but it annoys me at every corner as well. A few patches and balancing will really help with this one, but it won't keep me from enjoying my Suebi campaign some more!

Now if you ask me, use your waaaaay back machine to the release of RTW 1. Pretty much the same comments as we see here (excepting the fact that RTW was the first to use the 3D map) could apply to the original. Now look at what folks have to say about all the myriad of RTW mods spawned since its' release and all the the patches/hotfixes that CA came out with.

Games of this scope require immense amounts of coding and design. It's inevitable that there will be problems given the nature of the video game business these days...name me one major release of any company at any time in the last 10 years that didn't have teething problems?!?

Does TW:R2 have its problems? Most definitely it does, and some major ones, at that. But this kind of statement...

Those kind of assumptions are something a child would make, given CA's history. An adult would stand up and put pressure on CA to fix them.

...exhibits a certain lack of patience on your part which the history of TW games has shown to be necessary in ample amounts. Even the dreadful Empires, arguably the most buggy, problem riddled TW game at release, was eventually smoothed out to the point of being a very good game.

Now, should CA have held this game for a month or two more to fix some of the problems being encountered? I think that goes without saying. But how much pressure was CA under to get this out of production and into the market? Considerable, I would say, though I'm no marketing guru. I would venture a wild guess that if the decision about when to release was entirely up to CA, we wouldn't have seen this game until the holidays.

Just my 2 talents

[Lemur]

From one adult to another, I found this forum to be far too supportive of CA pre-release

Well, I kept posting along the lines of "wait and see," and "It's permature to decide," and for this I was flogged as a CA catamite. So ... meh. It was too early to say, and the fact that those predicting a messed-up release were correct does not speak to their brilliance and wisdom.

Shogun 2 had the best release of any CA game ever. Balance that against the troubling reports in the final couple of weeks leading up to the release of Rome 2 and you get: Wait and see.

That's not being the cabin boy of Creative Assembly, that's being judicious and cautious.

Reminds me of a hedge fund manager I kinda know (brother of a close friend). He runs what's called a "doomsday fund," or a "bear fund," something similar. All of his investments are based on the idea that there will be a massive crash in the market. Most years his fund makes very little money. When the big financial crash came in 2008, he made out like a man who just found Inca gold. So I watched other investors and reporters treat him like a freakin' genius for about two years. It was absurd. He was not particularly clever; the environment had just come around to support his particular brand of investing.*

Now that the US economy is back to sluggish growth, his funds are back to making middling returns. And nobody notices or comments.

Anyway.




*Okay, glancing at the Wiki write-up, I see he made some clever calls after that, and it's a little more nuanced than I'm making it out to be. So sue me.

[jbillybrack]

3

To fallen851:

Now should CA have held this game for a month or two more to fix some of the problems being encountered? I think that goes without saying. But how much pressure was CA under to get this out of production and into the market? Considerable, I would say, though I'm no marketing guru. I would venture a wild guess that if the decision about when to release was entirely up to CA, we wouldn't have seen this game until the holidays.

Just my 2 talents

I'd rather be playing the buggy game now than be waiting for a perfect release in a month

[fallen851]

Diablo II was indeed a disaster. And it deserved the criticism it got. However if Diablo II had never been released, most people would have said it was a good game. Rome II, is in the same boat for me. If other TW titles never been released, most people would have said it was a good game, me included (for me the capture points on non-siege battles really hurts).

The fact that other games, made by CA or not, have suffered issues like this, or that CA was pressured to release the game, does not release them from responsibility. Nor does my "lack of patience" for a finished product mean that I shouldn't expect one when they release what they say is a finished product! Remember that perhaps the best definition that comes out of Plato's Republic for justice is "to do what you say you will." You can make a strong case they did not finish RTW II.

Those are indeed excuses made in defense of CA that are not logically sound.

Well, I kept posting along the lines of "wait and see," and "It's permature to decide," and for this I was flogged as a CA catamite. So ... meh. It was too early to say, and the fact that those predicting a messed-up release were correct does not speak to their brilliance and wisdom.

This is where you were wrong. It does speak to their brilliance and wisdom.

It doesn't take Nostradamus to view the videos they released and assess them, or read the reviews and see the direction of the game. Your wait and see approach was a defense of CA when the problems were evident, and given their history, I found it ignorant and thought you must be on CA's payroll. I'm not saying I'm brilliant, because I didn't feel this prediction required much thought. Nor do I think it was really a prediction, we saw the reviews, saw the videos firsthand. I do believe you are biased toward CA in some fashion however, and let this influence your opinion.

But there are somethings called accountability and responsibility. Everyone should be held accountable and responsible for their actions. You made a wrong assessment of the situation, and people could have trusted you and bought the game. Now, this isn't a big deal, you shouldn't get flogged, but don't pretend that other people weren't right. Don't pretend that you weren't wrong. Take accountability and responsibility of your actions and correct them. Most of all, listen to the people who were right, and try to understand why they were right, so you aren't wrong again. That is learning.

Had Rome II been trouble free on release, I would have apologized, congratulated CA, sung their praise and most importantly, learned. Instead we got a Beta.

But my main point is here, is that there are four kinds of responses to RTW II:

1 - There is criticism that is justified.

2 - There is criticism that isn't justified.

3 - There is praise that is justified.

4 - There is praise that isn't justified.

2 and 4 are the problems. There is a lot of 2 on the TWC. There is a lot of 4 in this thread, and a lot of refusing to see 1.

CA should have released the game relatively free from issues and in good working order. It should have been finished, many products are released in such a form. The fact that other TW titles have needed polishing, the fact that other companies have done the same, or that I need to have patience to wait for them to finish it, is to deny justified criticism.

I'm looking forward to CA crafting RTW II into a better game. It definitely has potential. I just really hope they remove capture points in non-siege battles, or at least allow the defender to choose where they want the capture point. And let's not ignore 1.

[Lord of the Isles]

For me, I only buy games that rate extremely well in reviewers that actually do a quality job reviewing (PC Gamer for instance).

Thus, I have high expectations for my games. And the majority I've bought and played, including last few (SC2, Crysis and League of Legends) all meet those expectations. Rome II does not. I vastly prefer Rome I, and will continue too play it unless the land battles in Rome II aren't tied to capture points and the game turns out to be as moddable as Rome I was.

I've a more positive feeling about Rome II than that but I still sympathise with almost everything you posted fallen851. And I also think your post kind of proves the OP's point: even people critical of the game here have mostly criticized it in well argued ways. Anyway, enough mutual back-slapping ...

Once upon a time I could get worked into a frenzy before a game's release. But eventually, having been through Master of Orion 3 and Call to Power II to name just two, I've learned to expect less. Not your attitude fallen851 but it led me to a similar course of action: not to buy a game until it has been out for a while (I made an exception for Rome II because I'd been so impressed by Fall of the Samurai). Since the disappointment of Empire I learned more patience - NTW, Shogun 2 and its 2 expansions were all bought months or even years after they were released.

So how has my gamble on Rome II gone? Some bits of it worry me but it doesn't seem to be as bad as Empire on release (yet), even if it is a long way from being as good as some others in the series. And I've given up waiting for CA to just once ignore graphics and showy things and produce a half-sensible AI. Pre-orders for Rome II were enormous and I doubt the majority were from the aging wargamer historical-accuracy-demanding demographic.

But am still having fun playing it so far.

[Lemur]

Your wait and see approach was a defense of CA when the problems were evident, and given their history, I found it ignorant and thought you must be on CA's payroll.

Pre-orders for Rome II were enormous and I doubt the majority were from the aging wargamer historical-accuracy-demanding demographic.

Sigh. Sad but true.

However, if the people making big decisions at CA aren't entirely stupid (never a safe assumption with upper management of any organization), they will realize that losing the long-term fanbase would be catastrophic, even if our numbers are minuscule compared to the casual gamer population.

[Lord of the Isles]

CA should have released the game relatively free from issues and in good working order. It should have been finished, many products are released in such a form. The fact that other TW titles have needed polishing, the fact that other companies have done the same, or that I need to have patience to wait for them to finish it, is to deny justified criticism.

That bit in bold is certainly true. Were it not for the fact that CA have so much history of doing just that, it would amaze me. In truth I expected it when they announced the release date on Sep 3 when the expectation in forums was for a couple of months later. I guess deadlines from the publisher may be a factor but CA never seem to give themselves enough time to properly finish and test their ambitious products. An earlier me might have typed: wouldn't it be better to release something relatively well playtested rather than have to apologise publicly in the forum for all the issues? But the current me thinks cynically that the number of units shifted is the only thing that matters and it willl always be like this.

[Vuk]

Yeah, I gotta say, I sure thought/(think) you were/(are) on CA's payroll too Lemur. A blind man could see what was coming, and yet you blindly defended it at every turn. You and other members tried to make those of us who were predicting what eventually happened seem like we were just people who loved to complain. Of course with almost every other CA release since I joined this forums I have been extremely optimistic and usually have done almost no complaining, so I don't see how you could think it was just a case of someone who always complains finally being correct.

I guess it doesn't matter either way as people erred on the side of optimism this time round and CA already made its fortune.

Hopefully the lessons people will take away from this are:
1) DO take pre-release footage, reviews, and descriptions into account when judging a game.
and
2) If in doubt, don't buy till a few days after release when you have heard from others you trust if it is good. Definitely don't preorder if you have any doubt that the game will be fantastic.

What CA did this time around is highway robbery. They deliberately misrepresented their product to the community and got as many people as possible to shell out the dosh for it in advance before they could see it.
Think of it guys, would you buy a car if they dealer told you "Yeah, I got it locked up in the garage. Just sign this piece of paper to finalize the deal and I will let you see it! It is a great car BTW!"?
Of course not. Be wise with your money. The only way you will get what you want from a company is if you speak (or remain silent) with your wallet. When you buy things regardless of quality, you are telling them that quality does not matter, and you have become part of the problem with modern games. Be part of the solution, not the problem.

[AntiDamascus]

That bit in bold is certainly true. Were it not for the fact that CA have so much history of doing just that, it would amaze me. In truth I expected it when they announced the release date on Sep 3 when the expectation in forums was for a couple of months later. I guess deadlines from the publisher may be a factor but CA never seem to give themselves enough time to properly finish and test their ambitious products. An earlier me might have typed: wouldn't it be better to release something relatively well playtested rather than have to apologise publicly in the forum for all the issues? But the current me thinks cynically that the number of units shifted is the only thing that matters and it willl always be like this.

It absolutely is. The fact that so many games, particularly PC games, come out buggy but still generate lots of money tells pretty much what you need to know. Take money and give an apology later instead of spend time making the game "perfect" and having people walk away at extended release dates.

[Akka]

Going apeshit wont fix anything. Besides, it seems the consensus here is that if CA doesn't fix what people have of various issues with the game, the modding community will as soon as they can ^^

On the other hand, it shouldn't be the job of the community and the modder to fix the game.
I find it good that there is some feeling of "that's not acceptable". The publishers wouldn't do it if they knew they couldn't get away with it, so in a sense trying to be too "reasonable" is actually a bad thing.

[easytarget]

To fallen851:

Even the dreadful Empires, arguably the most buggy, problem riddled TW game at release, was eventually smoothed out to the point of being a very good game.

Where your analysis falls down is the assumption we agree that Empire turned into a very good game.

[BroskiDerpman]

I just got Empire with all dlc a few months ago and only got around 14 hours on it; with mods too.


A pure mess... The game is just simply unplayable even with all those mods I've plopped on it.


Alt tab makes it freeze up on me for petesake... Just wait till we get to the meat and potatoes of the game which is empty.

[JeromeBaker]

I wish there was more direct competition with the Total War series. For instance, I am a fan of the battlefield series of games, and while I am not as big a fan of the Call of Duty series, having COD constantly competiting against Battlefield for customers helps to push Battlefield to put forth top effort. Until there is a really good challenger, I dont think we will ever see the "best" product CA could produce.

[Lemur]

I wish there was more direct competition with the Total War series.

I guess I will be taking a very careful look at Europa Universalis IV.

And then there's always the mod love for the older TW games.

Beyond that ... sigh.

Empire [...] is just simply unplayable even with all those mods I've plopped on it.

I dunno, I had many hours of enjoyment with DarthMod and Empire. It's still broken in many ways, but it is, in fact, playable. (Also, I have a particular weakness for the period.)

[Vuk]

I just got Empire with all dlc a few months ago and only got around 14 hours on it; with mods too.


A pure mess... The game is just simply unplayable even with all those mods I've plopped on it.


Alt tab makes it freeze up on me for petesake... Just wait till we get to the meat and potatoes of the game which is empty.

From what I have read it sounds like Empire was never half as broken, buggy, or poorly designed as RII.

[BroskiDerpman]

They seem around the same with Rome being an huger disappointment since it's much more anticipated plus it's CA screwing up again with the marketing especially. (Empire marketing and twisting words but even more nuts)

Also anybody waiting for a huge sale or Gold Edition?

[Barkhorn1x]

From what I have read it sounds like Empire was never half as broken, buggy, or poorly designed as RII.

Oh no - it was indeed a mess and on a par with Rome 2.

[Vuk]

Yeah, on the bugs level they may be equal, but as far as misguided design, surely Empire was not half as badly as Rome II. Most of the systems it implemented were pulled off much better and were just better ideas to begin with. The only system RII implemented that sounds like a great concept is the LOS system, and like with many of Empire's new additions, it was implemented horribly.