Rome 2 Patches, Hotfixes, Betas and Such (patch 17 live!)

[Slaists]

I see Slaists' advice is to use my own skirmishers as mutual cannon fodder but it seems a little contrived to plan strategy around compensating for CA's weird changes.

@Lord of the Isles, to be fair, that skirmisher vs skirmisher matching before the forces engage is historically accurate. That was called the skirmish phase of the engagement. In Rome 1, it was practically non-existent since missiles were very ineffective. In Rome 2, it is critical. Also, skirmishers in RTW 2 are very vulnerable to cavalry charges. Much more so than in previous TW games. So, that's a counter.

But otherwise, I agree, slings are too effective against armored units. The deflection probability for shields should be raised and probably added to armor for units that are highly armored but have no shields (sling damage could stay as is). Probably the CA did not do this in order not to nerf javelins, which in my opinion are correct now.

[Sp4]

What was the skirmishing phase all about? I guess the point wasn't to see which side is better at throwing rocks at each other?

[Myth]

What was the skirmishing phase all about? I guess the point wasn't to see which side is better at throwing rocks at each other?

If you had no skirmishers or other such light troops you'd have no advance companies moving forward towards the enemy battle line. Thus your medium and heavy infantry would have to pave the way but unlike skirmishers they more or less need to be in formation or at least in a coherent battle line. Enemy skirmishers pelting your guys all the way from your battle line to theirs will disrupt the formation, make you lose men and morale and also will make it more likely for your troops to lose battle line cohesion in the chaos of being harrased and thus you end up with wedges which can get surrounded and massacred in melee.

Also, sling stones and bullets are deadly. Do not think a sling is what you use at home with some small pebbles.

[Nelson]

Skirmishing was just the missile troops doing their thing while they could for the reasons Myth mentioned because dense formations made great targets. Of course they were first to engage having ranged weapons. And generally, being lightly armed and armored, they eschewed melee and kept their distance. When the enemy had light troops also, they naturally had a shoot out.

My guess is that they would throw their javelins and sling shot and hastily get out of Dodge. Once the melee forces joined they needed to go somewhere else, preferably safe from enemy cavalry!

[Hooahguy]

Update on patch 8 and the new DLC:

Hiya guys,Just a heads up to let you know that we’ve pushed back the release of the Caesar in Gaul Campaign Pack slightly toTuesday 17th December in order to give us a bit more time to squeeze in some additions to the accompanying patch. The good news is that the extra changes we’re squeezing in will have a knock-on benefit to the main game, so even if you don’t purchase the DLC you’ll still see improvements.
Patch 8 will be hitting at the same time as the Caesar in Gaul DLC and as well as activating the DLC will bring with it some improvements, including:
• Technical and performance issue updates including crash fixes.
• New culture system – culture no longer works on 100%-0%, instead aiming to achieve an equilibrium between the cultures present in a province, relative to their respective culture points.
• Additional AI fixes.
• The Post-battle loading screens for Custom/ Multiplayer battles are now interactive, after load so the player can see kills/losses of other armies in battle.
As Caesar in Gaul has moved back slightly, the patch after it is going to go into Public Beta quite soon. We plan to put Patch 8.1 into open beta 48 hours after launch of Caesar in Gaul, which will bring additional improvements to the main game, including:
• Improvements to siege artillery using flaming projectiles appropriately (when attacking walls and towers).
• Additional fixes to AI and pathfinding.
• Fixes to issues with AI’s interaction with walls in siege battles, enabling a more effective use of siege towers and ladders.

[Sp4]

Ah.. I always thought it was a bit weird how the only ranged units Rome had in the early game of Rome 1 were people throwing spears. I just thought that would be really inefficient as a way of shooting at someone especially because everything shot back... might as well go with longer range...

I read about it a little today and found they even did it up to and during the Napoleonic wars. I thought it kind of became meh once artillery was developed to a certain point. It makes me wonder why people still bothered with ordered formations and firing lines if everything else seems to have been aimed at breaking them apart.

[Slaists]

Ah.. I always thought it was a bit weird how the only ranged units Rome had in the early game of Rome 1 were people throwing spears. I just thought that would be really inefficient as a way of shooting at someone especially because everything shot back... might as well go with longer range...

I read about it a little today and found they even did it up to and during the Napoleonic wars. I thought it kind of became meh once artillery was developed to a certain point. It makes me wonder why people still bothered with ordered formations and firing lines if everything else seems to have been aimed at breaking them apart.

Javelin throwing ended up being an Olympic sport for a reason ;)

Wonder why slinging was never included though, LOL. Actually, just read up on it: one of the first Olympic events was javelin throwing WITH a sling.

Then there is this too:

Film exists of Spanish Civil War combatants using slings to throw grenades over buildings into enemy positions on the opposite street.

(from Wikipedia)

[Sp4]

Slinging grenades.. of course, it's pretty genius. Nothing could go wrong! :D But then.. they're shooting at us, we're shooting at them, why don't we try flinging grenades over buildings while we're at it, all in danger anyways.

[The Stranger]

Ah.. I always thought it was a bit weird how the only ranged units Rome had in the early game of Rome 1 were people throwing spears. I just thought that would be really inefficient as a way of shooting at someone especially because everything shot back... might as well go with longer range...

I read about it a little today and found they even did it up to and during the Napoleonic wars. I thought it kind of became meh once artillery was developed to a certain point. It makes me wonder why people still bothered with ordered formations and firing lines if everything else seems to have been aimed at breaking them apart.

because until napoleon artillery was usually a secondary weapon and rarely used offensively. the ordered formations were to make it less likely that men break and run and at the same time it was needed to resist the heavy cavalry charges. although it started to show signs of being outdated, the infantry formation can still be defended in that era. ww1 however, thats a completely different story. what a waste of human lives that was :/

[Hooahguy]

Patch 8 notes:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Gameplay Improvements

Campaign


-It is now possible to levy units from satrapies and client states. This works in a similar manner to mercenaries, but these units have normal recruitment and upkeep costs, and come from the locally available unit roster.
-Infantry and cavalry units now have different campaign movement extents. Infantry units are slower than before, while cavalry units are faster than before. Armies always move at the speed of the slowest unit. Now cavalry-only armies actually move faster.
-Cinematic borders can now be displayed in campaign and battle by pressing [ALT] + [K] keys (by default).
-New industrial building chain: Quarry and mine buildings are now available for construction in minor settlements for all factions.
-Fixed an issue that prevented the AI from blockading the Brundisium port.
-Improved cultural conversion mechanics.
-Exempting a province from tax now sets its food consumption to zero (this wasn’t previously registering).
-In Multiplayer Campaign mode, when a player-owned settlement is attacked by the AI, the player will no longer have the option to sally forth, when the ‘fight manual battles’ option is disabled.
-Improved disembarkation areas in some coastal battle maps.
-Special abilities in battle have undergone rebalancing.
-Changed victory conditions in grand campaign for all playable factions. The number of regions the player needs to control in order to win the game has been reduced.
-Removed a number of misleading treachery types from Diplomacy, so now a faction that breaks a treaty and then signs it again within 10 turns won’t get treachery penalties.
-Campaign AI is now less likely to declare war on too many factions.


Battle


-Added new Barbarian major port battle map.
-Enemy reinforcement banners no longer begin battle as visible, thereby initially hiding the units’ positions in battles.
-Added visualisations to denote the range of targeted abilities in battles, so the player will know which units will be affected.
-Fixed a bug which caused the frame rate drop when it rained during battles.


Usability Improvements


Campaign


-After researching a technology on the campaign map, the zoom-to-location button on the Research Complete message will now zoom to the correct location.
-Faction list in Diplomacy now sorts alphabetically by default.
-The Toggle UI shortcut ([K] key by default) now works with Campaign modes.
-Treachery warnings now show reliably when you are declaring war and have current treaties with that faction. The warning also shows when the player breaks a treaty and tries to declare war, while the treaty is still in the process of being broken.
-Fixed the top and bottom of the Campaign tactical map to prevent it from being clipped at high resolutions.
-Added borders to the campaign tactical map so regions at the edges can be seen more centrally and are not blocked by the diplomacy user interface.
-Fixed a conflict which meant automatically constructed siege equipment prevented the player from building anything else.
-General’s skills and army traditions which lower upkeep costs will now update the recruitment panels correctly.
-Agent ability Intercept Orders success event-messages will now display which specific armies/settlements are revealed.
-Improved trees on the Campaign map.

Battle


-Post-battle loading screens for Custom/Multiplayer battles are now interactive, so the player can see kills/losses of armies in battle.
-When reinforcing an ally in a campaign battle using multiple armies, the unit cards in battle will now be adapted correctly to the number of unit cards and fit the screen correctly.
-It is now clearer in the battle UI when auto-trigger is enabled on ability buttons.
-Improved lighting and vegetation in Atlantic climate battles.

Patch 8.1 notes:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Gameplay Improvements



Campaign


-Improved AI parameter balancing: increased tactical focus and aggression, especially for major factions in both Grand Campaign and Gaul Campaign.
-Improved campaign AI raiding behaviour. AI factions are now more likely to raid during campaigns.


Battle




-Siege artillery now uses flaming projectiles appropriately (when attacking walls and towers).
-Fixed an issue in siege battle AI which could lead to the general's unit exposing itself to attack when trying to use its special abilities to support assaulting units on walls.
-Fixed a pathfinding issue which could cause units to retreat from siege towers and ladders once they had docked to walls. This was most common with AI units due to the sequence in which it issues unit orders.
-Fixed a range of issues with the AI's interaction with walls in siege battles, enabling the AI to conduct a more effective assault using siege towers and ladders.
-Improved the tactical co-ordination between different sub-groups of units when assaulting the walls in siege battles. When the AI attempts to enter the settlement via the gates, it is now able to do a better job of first eliminating the threat of boiling oil.
-Fixed an issue which caused units to march off in a random direction when reforming on a siege tower.
-Improved the behaviour of units when a unit on the ground is ordered to melee-attack a unit on the walls.
-Boiling oil no longer causes incendiary damage (so won’t burn battering rams for example).
-Improved pathfinding when attacking units on walls with units on the ground or vice versa.
-Improved attacking siege AI’s interaction with walls, and its use of battering rams.

Glad to see all of the AI improvements. Also glad to see the oil tuned down a bit.

Also, its a 1.1 gb patch. Wow. Though most of that is probably the new DLC.

EDIT 2: download is 1.5 gb with the new DLC and 1.1 without. This is a massive patch.

[Mhantra]

All of those changes look great. But uhh...what about the cultural conversion mechanics? Anyone know what, exactly, the changes are?

[Hooahguy]

From what I understand cultural conversion will now find a balance between competing cultures within the same province instead of 1 culture going to 100% pushing the others to 0%.

[Mhantra]

From what I understand cultural conversion will now find a balance between competing cultures within the same province instead of 1 culture going to 100% pushing the others to 0%.

oooh, so this has a few implications.

1. An overall drop in cultural benefit toward public order? Or did they rebalance the amount of public order from each unit of culture?
2. No more using a cultural conversion building for 10-15 turns, they removing it altogether for another building?
3. As an example: In southern Italia, that Syracuse has already culturally bled into the boot, and unless they are removed will continue to influence the culture with its Hellenistic influence. This will create a ratio within the lower most settlement in the boot based on buildings built and agent/general culture converstion ratings. This will make it more difficult to maintain public order, and also makes it more fluid, as settlements near your own settlement affect it, you don't have to conquer it to influence the culture. Is this a correct assumption?

[Myth]

Patch 8.1 coming on the 19th. It's supposed to dramatically increase AI aggressiveness. No point in staring a new campaign now...

[Sp4]

Also, its a 1.1 gb patch. Wow. Though most of that is probably the new DLC.

EDIT 2: download is 1.5 gb with the new DLC and 1.1 without. This is a massive patch.

The DLC isn't going to be very big. Most of it is probably the new campaign map.

[CaptainCrunch]

Just booted my game and saw that the main menu background changed to reflect the expansion (even though I don't have it) and came here to see the change log. Then I saw this; "Campaign AI is now less likely to declare war on too many factions." I really hope this works in practice, cuz it's definitely one of the main culprits in the early demise of the historically powerful expansionist factions like Rome. Don't understand why it took 8 patches to address this, but when the AI is at war with 7+ factions at once how can it hope to survive?

By way of game design, the powerful expansionist factions are more vulnerable to early extinction than the smaller defensive ones. They get to sit back and play the counterattack game while factions like Rome, Carthage, etc exhaust themselves fighting ruinous wars on multiple fronts and then collapse easily with no way left to defend themselves. CA need to add more diplomatic options so that large powerful factions can use diplomatic savvy or demonstrations of force to further their expansionist agendas without entering into direct conflict. Survival needs to take priority over reckless offensives, especially when considering the AI's poor balance of power estimates when confronting the player. It'd be nice if the AI could settle disputes quickly and bring the smaller factions to the negotiation table without the need for long protracted wars. And most importantly, the AI needs to settle other disputes as quickly as possible when attacked by the player so that it can focus its forces to deal with it.

Right now, I find that if you play on any difficulty higher than normal the AI will sit there and continue to fight with multiple factions while you knock off its settlements one after the other and refuse any offers of peace when it's clearly in its best interests to do so until it's way too late. More diplomatic options are needed, for the AI's sake alone.

EDIT- After playing for a few hours I see that phalanx on phalanx warfare is literally over in seconds from first contact. You don't even have time for flanking maneuvers, the phalangites on both sides (comparable units) are almost completely destroyed by the time you get there even if you launch the move as soon as they come into contact

Also, has anyone been able to levy troops from a client yet in an existing campaign? Not working for me so far.

2nd EDIT- So levying troops from clients is now working for me in a Patch 7 campaign. Sorted itself out somehow. I also see that seasons have somehow been implemented in the main game now, for anyone using a tpy mod you see a seasonal symbol right next to the date at the lower right of the campaign map (and you can mouse over as well). I'm wondering if anyone has actually seen changes (snow) on the campaign map or a campaign battlefield yet, or any campaign effects? I created a few custom battles up north and there was snow on the ground. I hope the modders can take advantage of this in the grand campaign.

[Hooahguy]

Also, people are saying that the rain lag has been fixed.

[Nelson]

I just noticed that my replay saves do not replay my battles. They show my deployment and then the AI plays the battle its way. Quite a difference I can tell you! Has this been messed up like this for very long? They used to work back in October I’m sure.

[Hooahguy]

Replays are very hit and miss. Contrary to public belief its not an actual reply where it records your every move. Rather it tries to predict your moves, oftentimes getting them wrong. This is the way its been for a while, I recall that in Rome 1 vanilla I played an epic custom battle as Carthage against the Romans. I won by the skin of my teeth, and in the excitement I wanted to save the replay. So the next day Im telling my buddy about this awesome battle and he comes over to watch the replay. So we watch it, and in the replay, I lose. It was actually a pretty pathetic loss, with most of my men routing in the first 5 minutes. Ever since then I never saved a replay in a TW game.

[CaptainCrunch]

Just found this on .com... hilarious and sad at the same time

[Sp4]

Replays are very hit and miss. Contrary to public belief its not an actual reply where it records your every move. Rather it tries to predict your moves, oftentimes getting them wrong. This is the way its been for a while, I recall that in Rome 1 vanilla I played an epic custom battle as Carthage against the Romans. I won by the skin of my teeth, and in the excitement I wanted to save the replay. So the next day Im telling my buddy about this awesome battle and he comes over to watch the replay. So we watch it, and in the replay, I lose. It was actually a pretty pathetic loss, with most of my men routing in the first 5 minutes. Ever since then I never saved a replay in a TW game.

It works pretty well in Shogun 2. I have no idea what they changed between then and now or why the felt they had to make it stop working but there's that.

[Hooahguy]

The patch 8.1 beta is currently up.

Here are the patch notes again:

Patch 8.1



Gameplay Improvements




Campaign


-Improved AI parameter balancing: increased tactical focus and aggression, especially for major factions in both Grand Campaign and Gaul Campaign.
-Improved campaign AI raiding behaviour. AI factions are now more likely to raid during campaigns.


Battle




-Siege artillery now uses flaming projectiles appropriately (when attacking walls and towers).
-Fixed an issue in siege battle AI which could lead to the general's unit exposing itself to attack when trying to use its special abilities to support assaulting units on walls.
-Fixed a pathfinding issue which could cause units to retreat from siege towers and ladders once they had docked to walls. This was most common with AI units due to the sequence in which it issues unit orders.
-Fixed a range of issues with the AI's interaction with walls in siege battles, enabling the AI to conduct a more effective assault using siege towers and ladders.
-Improved the tactical co-ordination between different sub-groups of units when assaulting the walls in siege battles. When the AI attempts to enter the settlement via the gates, it is now able to do a better job of first eliminating the threat of boiling oil.
-Fixed an issue which caused units to march off in a random direction when reforming on a siege tower.
-Improved the behaviour of units when a unit on the ground is ordered to melee-attack a unit on the walls.
-Boiling oil no longer causes incendiary damage (so won’t burn battering rams for example).
-Improved pathfinding when attacking units on walls with units on the ground or vice versa.
-Improved attacking siege AI’s interaction with walls, and its use of battering rams.

So reports are saying that boiling oil has been nerfed, which makes me very, very happy.

[Slaists]

The patch 8.1 beta is currently up.

Here are the patch notes again:



So reports are saying that boiling oil has been nerfed, which makes me very, very happy.

Um, boiling oil was nerfed with patch 7 already. It was killing a dozen or so units before the "neutral regime" kicked in due to enemy troops being inside the gateway. Pretty much, boiling oil, was useless since patch 7. I almost felt like removing it altogether through modding since it was detrimental for defenders (boiling oil would start to pour on your own troops as the enemy gets pushed back through the gates).

[Hooahguy]

Um, boiling oil was nerfed with patch 7 already. It was killing a dozen or so units before the "neutral regime" kicked in due to enemy troops being inside the gateway. Pretty much, boiling oil, was useless since patch 7. I almost felt like removing it altogether through modding since it was detrimental for defenders (boiling oil would start to pour on your own troops as the enemy gets pushed back through the gates).

Are you sure about that? I was playing with patch 7 when the oil killed about 1,500 of my men in about 2 minutes.

[CaptainCrunch]

Are you sure about that? I was playing with patch 7 when the oil killed about 1,500 of my men in about 2 minutes.

OUCHIE!!

[Hooahguy]

OUCHIE!!

To make things worse, it was my own oil. I was defending and sent my defenders out to attack the attackers and I didnt realize that there were a few enemies by the gate and before I knew what was going on most of my defenders were dead.

[Slaists]

Are you sure about that? I was playing with patch 7 when the oil killed about 1,500 of my men in about 2 minutes.

@Hooahguy, LOL, you hit it right in the bull's eye: the oil is more damaging to the defenders, especially if defending with hoplites. Hoplite phalanx has a "push-forward" programmed into them. So, after a little while, they succeed in pushing the enemy out through the gate. I am not sure exactly where the ownership trigger is located, but it's somewhere inside the gatehouse. Once your men cross that point, the gate ownership passes back to the defender and... the oil starts pouring again right on top of the defenders :)

On the opposite side of the token: as soon as the AI attacker crosses that point from the other side, the gate ownership becomes neutral and the oil stops pouring. In effect, oil rarely kills too many attackers, but is very detrimental to successful defenders.

As far as nerf is considered, patch notes to 7 said the oil damage has been reduced. The biggest nerf for me though is the gatehouse control. Now, it is sufficient for the attacker to get one unit inside the gatehouse to neutralize it despite the defender still having majority within the control radius. Before patch 7, control radius was smaller, and centered more towards the town center so the attacker had to push the defenders away from the gate to neutralize oil.

[Sociopsychoactive]

@Hooahguy, LOL, you hit it right in the bull's eye: the oil is more damaging to the defenders, especially if defending with hoplites. Hoplite phalanx has a "push-forward" programmed into them. So, after a little while, they succeed in pushing the enemy out through the gate. I am not sure exactly where the ownership trigger is located, but it's somewhere inside the gatehouse. Once your men cross that point, the gate ownership passes back to the defender and... the oil starts pouring again right on top of the defenders :)

On the opposite side of the token: as soon as the AI attacker crosses that point from the other side, the gate ownership becomes neutral and the oil stops pouring. In effect, oil rarely kills too many attackers, but is very detrimental to successful defenders.

As far as nerf is considered, patch notes to 7 said the oil damage has been reduced. The biggest nerf for me though is the gatehouse control. Now, it is sufficient for the attacker to get one unit inside the gatehouse to neutralize it despite the defender still having majority within the control radius. Before patch 7, control radius was smaller, and centered more towards the town center so the attacker had to push the defenders away from the gate to neutralize oil.

I don't know about control seen as I've not noticed any significant difference but with patches 7 and 8 I've found boiling oil a great help. If you position a group of cheap spearmen (levee's that can shield screen will do nicely) just inside the gate, not in the gatehouse itself, then you will see hundreds of casualties from the oil. The spearmen are useless at killing, but hold the enemy in position and tangle them up well enough to keep them in range of the oil for a long time. It also works with raorai or triarii if playing as rome. The trick is to not be inside the gatehouse, as then you get burnt too, but just your side of it. For phalanxes you could still do it, but not in phalanx formation. In phalanx formation your troops will indeed push forward, but in normal formation they will only do so if the enemy back off.

[Slaists]

I don't know about control seen as I've not noticed any significant difference but with patches 7 and 8 I've found boiling oil a great help. If you position a group of cheap spearmen (levee's that can shield screen will do nicely) just inside the gate, not in the gatehouse itself, then you will see hundreds of casualties from the oil. The spearmen are useless at killing, but hold the enemy in position and tangle them up well enough to keep them in range of the oil for a long time. It also works with raorai or triarii if playing as rome. The trick is to not be inside the gatehouse, as then you get burnt too, but just your side of it. For phalanxes you could still do it, but not in phalanx formation. In phalanx formation your troops will indeed push forward, but in normal formation they will only do so if the enemy back off.

Probably that's the difference. I tend to put hoplites by the gate (inside the walls) in 1-line phalanx formation (3-4 of them) and entice the AI to attack that formation through the gate. Hoplite phalanxes kill the attacking AI, but also push the AI back through the gates and at that point they get burned by their very own oil. Pulling them back does not work either since then they get slaughtered in their back by the attackers.

[CaptainCrunch]

Some interesting things I've noticed playing with the 8.1 beta, the CAI seems to be making more post battle adjustments after suffering losses. This was most evident for me in the early game as Epirus on Hard. Initial clashes against Sparta where my levy phalangites and cavalry made the difference, had the Spartans come back with a force composed almost entirely of peiriokoi pikes with some mercenary citizen cavalry. I've literally never seen such a composition in a Spartan army before. When Athens got into the mix, they suffered a catastrophic loss where my cavalry tore their flanks to pieces. They came back with forces led by hippeus heavy lancers with several units of Tarantine merc cav as well.

The AI also seems to be sallying out of non-walled settlements more often to fight in the open ground. CAI allies also seem to come to each others aid faster. Some well played agent actions as well, I've definitely been pleasantly surprised in some regards. Of course it still struggles abysmally in any siege-related affairs, but for the most part I've never noticed this other stuff I mentioned before. Don't know if anyone else has, but I'd be interested to know.