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Thread: Civil War (playing as Rome)

  1. #1

    Default Civil War (playing as Rome)

    Some of this I've posted in other threads, and most of this material will be obvious and/or repetitive to those who've already played through a Rome campaign. Civil War, however, is one of the most mysterious, undocumented features of the game, especially to players working through their first campaign. So I thought the topic worth its own thread for subject-line and search purposes. What follows is my own experience (and interpretations of game mechanics) thus far, from the Rome perspective.

    I'm nearly 200 turns through my Rome campaign, playing as Junii family. I've fought through and completed my civil war (note implication that there is only one).

    How/Why It Starts.

    I'm still not 100% sure of the specific trigger(s). I believe it's a combination of the following factors (none of which are decisive in and of themselves, but rather in combination with the others):

    - Senate Influence. Either too high or too low. If you plummet down to Zero (which could potentially happen early-game with some ill-timed defeats while your starting influence is still low), the other families will gang up on you, they see you as easy pickings. If you get too high, they see you as too powerful and band together against you. Where this influence threshold lies, however, is apparently variable, depending on other factors. At the time my CW started, I had 56% Senate influence...a level I'd maintained for many turns (i.e., mid-to-high 50's). Earlier in campaign I had been as high as 62% without triggering CW.

    - Individual characters' gravitas and ambition. Gravitas contributes to Influence, of course, but I suspect it also is a separate variable on its own for the CW calculation. My influence had been in the mid-50's for a long time, but my faction leader's trait set and longevity had built his gravitas up to nearly 150. He also had 2 ambition, which I suspect also plays into it. I'd think a family general with 50 gravitas / 2 ambition probably edges you closer to CW than a general with 75 gravitas / 1 ambition.

    - Imperium level. Honestly, I think this is the most heavily weighted variable. The bigger Rome gets, the more likely CW is to occur. I had 50-60ish influence and high-gravitas generals for a long time without CW triggering...but as soon as I hit the top level (12 armies, etc), CW started soon afterward.

    All in all, my sense is that, playing Rome at least, civil war is eventually inevitable no matter what you do. The whole point of internal politics isn't to avoid civil war altogether, but rather to manage conditions in such a way that the war occurs when you're best prepared for it (i.e., not in the middle of a major war against somebody else, and have a few legions hanging around your home provinces, led by your better own-family generals).

    What Happens

    At the beginning of the subject turn, you get a "Civil War!" notification with a filmclip of a couple of lions about to duke it out. One of your regions (not a whole province) remains culturally Roman, but rebels against you. A new faction, "Senate Loyalists" arises.

    Location. In my case, the rebelling region was Karalis, provincial capital of Corsica/Sardinia. I suspect (but would need more playthroughs and corroborating evidence from others) that the rebellion is most likely to occur in a province closer to Rome rather than out on the fringes of the empire. Losing Karalis did break up the Corsica/Sardinia province cohesion, so I would've lost any edict I'd had there. Likewise, later when I retook towns from the Loyalists, the usual public order hits occurred (the one-turn -25 "Conquest" and the -10 decaying "Provincial Unrest"), so I guess the populations of those regions don't necessarily look upon you as a liberator.

    Forces. 10 stacks (6 armies, 4 fleets) insta-spawned at Karalis. Each stack was 12 units, and was made up of a fairly conventional composition of Roman troops. 7-8 melee infantry, mostly Legionaries with a leavening of Veteran Legionaries. Some Equites and Velites. No low-end "filler" troops like Leves, etc. I did have access to Praetorians and First Cohorts at the time, but don't remember seeing any in the opposing factions' stacks. This might have been because I had only very recently completed the Level IV barracks, I don't think I had actually recruited any into my armies yet. Same thing with siege weapons; had access, hadn't actually built any yet, didn't see any in their stacks. Their fleets were likewise composed of a mixture of assault/missile ships similar to the units I'd already recruited into my own fleets. Worth noting, Karalis happened to be my main fleet recruitment base, my only Level III military port; I was not able to recruit those ship types until after I had regained control of that city.

    Characters/Agents. I did not lose control of any of my own armies/fleets (although I suspect this may have occurred if I'd had a force actually stationed in Karalis). I did, however, lose all of my Cornelii/Julii generals/admirals, who had to be replaced with noobs from the pool. The "Other Houses" characters remained loyal. I also lost a few agents. I didn't notice any pattern to which agents I lost, but must confess I didn't really look for such either. Thinking back, I may have lost the ones attached to armies led by opposing-family generals.

    How my war played out. Having just crossed the Imperium threshold a couple of turns before, I had 9 armies (max of the previous level). They were all out on the edges, however, places like Libya, Egypt, Macedonia, Provincia. I had no legions in the core provinces of Italia, Magna Grecia, or Cisalpina, so these guys were able to run amok for a few turns while my armies marched/sailed back home. They didn't sit still, wander aimlessly about, or fragment into really small forces, the way other factions' forces often seem to do. They went straight for my nearest settlements, Ahaila (Corsica) and Lilybaeum, and took them easily as I had no forces in the area. They also stayed relatively clumped together in such a way that they could reinforce each other; later when I did get some forces back, I had a hard time catching a fleet or legion by itself. Lilybaeum taken, they pressed on to Syracusae. They also landed on the Italian mainland near Cosentia, and one fleet headed toward Thapsus in Africa. By then, however, my legions and fleets were closing in, and I started eliminating these guys. The Civil War was contained, and a couple of turns later it was over, when I hunted down the last couple of small beat-up fleets.

    Campaign AI: Based on their stacks' behavior, I infer that the Senate Loyalist campaign AI is programmed to march toward and capture your nearest settlement, generally in the direction towards Rome. I don't think the stacks were really "coordinating" their movements per se, but simply all taking the shortest path toward their next goal, and therefore happening to stay together. Later on when they started to fragment a bit due to post-battle retreats and so forth, they did start heading off in different directions.

    Battle AI: Not any better or worse than that of other factions. But, again, these are Roman troops at the same tech-tree level as your own, with a melee-heavy composition. Stat-wise, your individual units don't have a qualitative or asymmetric edge over them, so you can't take them as lightly as many other factions' forces. So AI aside, they put up a pretty good fight compared to most.

    Outcome/Aftermath

    The civil war ended after I'd retaken all the towns, chased down and killed all their stacks, and destroyed the Senate Loyalist faction. I didn't keep track, but I think this probably took about 10-12 turns or so. Eight minimum. The (very) short "Civil War" video in the Encyclopedia, however, states that the war can also end with a treaty after a certain period of time (perhaps 20 turns? 15?).

    Republic or Empire? On the next turn after I destroyed their last stack, I received a message along the lines of "Civil War Ends", with a short lion film clip again. I was given a choice of whether to continue the Roman Republic or establish the Roman Empire. No mouse-over tooltip or other info was given to help weigh pros/cons of either option. In this vacuum, I flipped a coin and maintained the Republic.

    The Republic does have a couple of decent military benefits. -10% to Recruitment costs, and adds 2 recruitment slots per turn to each province. So Republic does speed up and cheapen the creation of new powerful stacks. Since my CW happened to occur just I crossed to highest Imperium and therefore my army cap increased by 3, this came in pretty handy for me. Obviously, I have no idea what the Roman Empire rewards are; I somewhat suspect they may have been economic/cultural in nature.

    BUT...a few turns later completed my interim goal (I think it was the "destroy 20 factions" milestone), and graduated to the next goal (control 20 provinces). One of the associated sub-missions was "Establish Roman Empire", with a reward of 10,000 denarii. Oops, I guess I missed out on that one. Haven't run across a "Maintain Roman Republic" mission yet.

    The End of Politics. Since the end of the war, no family politics has occurred (even though I maintained the Republic instead of establishing Empire). None of the political action buttons ("Assassinate", "Promotion", "Marriage", etc) appear for any character, either my own or other families'. Senate influence & gravitas numbers are still displayed, but frozen at the same levels they were at when the civil war started. My faction leader fought several battles after the war; his gravitas didn't budge. Same with other generals who happened to have +gravitas traits associated with them. So the start of the civil war essentially means the end of the internal politics "mini-game"...and therefore also would imply that there won't be another civil war later in the campaign. It occurs to me that this MIGHT not be the case for a civil war which ends by time-expiration treaty instead of outright destroying the Loyalist faction.

    Recommendations

    Based on the above experience, following are some thoughts on how to handle the politics/civil war situation as Rome. This is certainly how I intend to go about things if/when I play another Rome campaign.

    - Accept that you cannot use internal politics to avoid civil war for the duration of the entire campaign. It will eventually happen.
    - Use politics, instead, to avoid civil war until you're ready for it, but then to instigate it.
    - Keep your level of Senate influence around 50% or so. High enough that no other family seriously rivals you and you have room to use influence for various political actions as you see fit...but not so high as to precipitate war prematurely. This ought to keep you out of CW during the 1st, 2nd, and probably 3rd stage of Imperium.
    - Once hitting 3rd Imperium (9-stack army cap), begin preparing for CW.
    - Finish up whatever war you're on, make peace or complete conquest as necessary without picking any new fights.
    - Move some of your armies/fleets back toward Rome. At least four, minimum. Place them in Italia, or perhaps Roma itself. (I assume Roma won't spawn the revolt, and probably not any of its associated settlement regions). Alternatively, perhaps keep them at sea, say, in the Mare Tyrrhenium. The goal is to ensure they're not actually sitting in the revolting region and therefore might be lost.
    - Make sure they're at least 15 good-quality units apiece.
    - Don't bring all your armies home, however. You'll need some on the frontier to precipitate the CW later.
    - Ensure the majority of your generals/admirals are your own family or "Other Houses", especially in the stacks you brought back to Italia. Minimize the leadership of the two other main families' in your forces.
    - Ensure that any army/fleet still commanded by a non-family general does not have an agent embedded with it. Just to be safe, don't even have any agents anywhere in the same province.
    - Once this is all in place and you're ready for the CW, now you need to instigate it.
    - Take your highest-ambition (not necessarily highest-gravitas) family member (preferably without any negative -gravitas traits) and place him in command of a robust frontier army. Start driving his gravitas up. Give him a +gravitas household member, and put an agent with +gravitas traits in his army.
    - Invade a province with this general, and fight as many battles in as short a period as you can. A province with a small non-allied faction..or even better, rebel-controlled..is ideal. Take along another stack if you want for numbers and perhaps swap-out fresh units, but ensure he's the guy getting credit for all the battles. Don't occupy a city with him, don't worry about public order. In fact, for this purpose, driving order to -100 is desirable, as it spawns a rebel army for him to fight. Obviously you want to win these fights...but you don't necessarily want to kill off the enemy stacks any quicker than you have to. You want the remnants to stick around so you can fight more battles. If you AR, use "protective" mode.
    - All these victories ought to drive his gravitas up very quickly...which, combined with his high ambition, should help drive the political situation toward civil war. This may or may not take a while, depending on how high your senate influence and your mad-dog general's gravitas were to begin with. Just keep going with this guy til it kicks off.
    - Once CW starts, your forces are well-placed to deal with it. Prosecute the fight as you would against any other faction.
    - Try to eliminate the Loyalists rather quickly rather than letting it drag on and the CW ends by treaty. I'm not sure that a treaty-ended CW is as "final" as one won by destruction of the Loyalist faction.
    - For the post-war "Republic or Empire?" choice, still not sure, as I don't know what the Empire rewards are. Empire does eventually have it's nice mission-related money reward...but by that point, your economy should be robust enough that it's certainly not a game-changer. Republic has nice military recruitment benefits, which you'll find useful in the 4th Imperium stage.

    If you actually read all this...kudos, you're more patient than I. Apologies to all of you who probably found this obvious and/or long-winded. My target audience was anyone out there who hasn't yet fought the CW, and is looking for more info on its what/when/how/why.

    Hopefully this starts some discussion on others' experiences. Still a lot of holes out there remaining to be filled.

    - What's the closest region to Rome someone has seen spawn the Loyalists? What's the farthest?
    - What are the highest/lowest levels of Senate influence someone has seen trigger the war, along with what imperium/gravitas/ambition combinations?
    - Has anyone seen troop combinations or tech levels different from what I described?
    - Does a treaty-ended CW, with loyalists still alive-and-kicking, end internal politics? Are multiple CW's in one campaign possible?
    - What rewards come with choosing Empire instead of Republic?
    - What happens if the Loyalists actually capture Roma?
    - Etc etc
    Last edited by Bramborough; 09-11-2013 at 23:05.

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  2. #2

    Default Re: Civil War (playing as Rome)

    Thanks for the information.

    While I haven't played a full Roman campaign. I had a pretty similar situation with Carthage, except that I had only 10% Senate approval. It may not be called a senate in Carthage, I can't remember. I had a good chunk of North Africa, Spain and southern Italy but I don't know what Imperium level I was. I didn't have more than 6 armies, so I had hit the 2nd level of Imperium. It's possible I had just crossed over to the next level.
    I hadn't been paying attention to politics at all when it happened - all my best generals went to the opposition - oops.
    They all spawned in Carthage, so I immediately lost my capital. The next turn I was given a mission to regain Carthage in 3 turns, but I didn't have an army close enough.
    Fortunately, most of my armies were close by in North Africa and I had one moving back to Carthage from Italy so I was able to contain it pretty quickly.
    I lost Carthage, Thapsus and Lilybaeum, but regained them all pretty quickly. I too picked Republic, so I can't tell you what the Empire rewards are.

    p.s. - I'm playing Normal difficulty. I saw someone at the .com site complaining about spawning 15-20 full stacks so I'm wondering if difficulty level affects the number of stacks.
    Last edited by phred; 09-11-2013 at 23:43.

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  3. #3
    Infinite Jest Member easytarget's Avatar
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    Default Re: Civil War (playing as Rome)

    I'm only guessing at what I'm doing on the politics front because I find it so ill conceived in design. Be that as it may, I'm still soldiering along in my Roman campaign, I believe last I looked I'm at 41%. What has me puzzled and led to me jumping in on this thread (with the best explanation of this system I've seen, kudos!) is to find out how to increase imperium.

    I was under the impression completing quests and expanding would naturally cause it to move along, but I'm not seeing it move much. I'm working methodically on conquering the provinces listed for the victory conditions. I forget how many there are, seems like half a dozen or so provinces were named that you needed to take in addition to hitting the total settlement count. I'm currently at three and one settlement short for Africa which would make four.

    Should I worry about increasing imperium or just let it happen on its own? The reason I ask is because this limits me to 6 land armies and 4 navies. This civil war sounds like I'd be facing tough odds to deal with unless I increase both.

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    Praeparet bellum Member Quillan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Civil War (playing as Rome)

    Imperium seems to increase mainly from territorial holdings. In my Rome campaign, I am right in the middle of the third section (9 armies max) and have 64% Senate influence, with no war yet. I hold 31 regions at this time. Although, I just got a spy with a trait that gives "+1 power per turn for your political party (factionwide)", and I suspect that will make the Imperium progress bar creep along.
    Age and treachery will defeat youth and skill every time.

  5. #5
    Strategist and Storyteller Member Myth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Civil War (playing as Rome)

    Great read! I'll choose Empire myself, even if Rome's greatest achievements were during Republican times. It is, after all, The Roman Empire
    The art of war, then, is governed by five constant
    factors, to be taken into account in one's deliberations,
    when seeking to determine the conditions obtaining in the field.

    These are: (1) The Moral Law; (2) Heaven; (3) Earth;
    (4) The Commander; (5) Method and discipline.
    Sun Tzu, "The Art of War"
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  6. #6

    Default Re: Civil War (playing as Rome)

    Did anyone already chose 'empire' and see what kind of benefits it gives?

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    Member Member Sp4's Avatar
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    Default Re: Civil War (playing as Rome)

    I haven't seen a civil war yet but I am not playing as Rome. I'm kind of edgy about it since I am not really prepared ^^

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    Senior Member Senior Member Jacque Schtrapp's Avatar
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    Default Re: Civil War (playing as Rome)

    I did not lose control of any of my own armies/fleets (although I suspect this may have occurred if I'd had a force actually stationed in Karalis).
    Last night in my campaign as Egypt, I ignored my influence with the nobles long enough that it dropped to 33% and triggered civil war. As it was late, I didn't play beyond that turn. However, I did survey the situation before quitting for the evening. The rebels appeared in Alexandria, 6 full armies and 4 full fleets, and the army that I had stationed in Alexandria was found standing outside the city. It may be that they would end up better off if they had disappeared, as they are in for a hasty retreat.

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  9. #9

    Default Re: Civil War (playing as Rome)

    Quote Originally Posted by Myth View Post
    even if Rome's greatest achievements were during Republican times.
    Interesting comment, and one with which I agree (at least in terms of "achievements" meaning conquest of additional territory). I've always thought it somewhat ironic that Rome was really at it's most expansionist and "imperial" when it was the "Republic", rather than "Empire". Modern-day France, Spain, North Africa, Egypt, Greece, Turkey, Balkans, and Syria/Levant all came under Roman control during the Republic. The Roman Empire, by contrast, mainly just kinda held on to what had already been won, with Britain and Dacia (I guess that would be roughly modern Romania?) really being the only major additions.

    This isn't necessarily because the Empire became somehow "softer". I'm reading an intriguing book right now (The Fall of the Roman Empire by Peter Heather) which argues that Roman expansion stopped at the Rhine/Danube rivers not because they were militarily unable to go further vs the Germanic tribes, but rather because socioeconomic development and inherent wealth in those areas simply made it non-cost-effective to do so. Just wasn't worth the blood, time, money, and effort.

    I wouldn't say, however, that Rome immediately started to deteriorate upon becoming the Empire. In terms of achievement, the Republic acquired all these areas, but under the Empire during 1st-3rd centuries, these areas thoroughly Romanized, and continued to assimilate and economically develop. Rome itself may not necessarily have become significantly richer and just a better place to live after the 1st century AD, but large areas under Roman rule certainly did. Worth noting, this was not some sort of top-down imposition, but rather enthusastically pursued by indigenous populations. Whatever the reasons for Rome's "fall" (an endlessly complex and fascinating topic), internal dissent and resistance to Roman rule by previously conquered peoples wasn't one of them. It's actually quite remarkable how little such internal disarray the Roman Empire experienced (not saying it didn't happen in places...just that it was surprisingly little given the Empire's size and manner in which it had been acquired).

    Back to the game, this is precisely why I stated that I think the "Empire" rewards are probably economic/cultural in nature. This would make sense to me, just as it's logical to me that the Republic bonuses are military recruitment related.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Civil War (playing as Rome)

    Quote Originally Posted by easytarget View Post
    I'm only guessing at what I'm doing on the politics front because I find it so ill conceived in design. Be that as it may, I'm still soldiering along in my Roman campaign, I believe last I looked I'm at 41%. What has me puzzled and led to me jumping in on this thread (with the best explanation of this system I've seen, kudos!) is to find out how to increase imperium.

    I was under the impression completing quests and expanding would naturally cause it to move along, but I'm not seeing it move much. I'm working methodically on conquering the provinces listed for the victory conditions. I forget how many there are, seems like half a dozen or so provinces were named that you needed to take in addition to hitting the total settlement count. I'm currently at three and one settlement short for Africa which would make four.

    Should I worry about increasing imperium or just let it happen on its own? The reason I ask is because this limits me to 6 land armies and 4 navies. This civil war sounds like I'd be facing tough odds to deal with unless I increase both.
    Just let it naturally develop; it'll increase as you expand your territory. As long as you keep your influence in check (marry off some nieces to other families if it gets too high), I don't think you're in major danger of unintentionally precipitating CW yet. I believe the game mechanics are programmed in such a way that, while CW is inevitable, it also usually won't occur until you've got the resources and power to deal with it.

    I didn't keep track exactly, but roughly speaking, I think I had around 6 complete provinces (Italia, Magna Grecia, Cisalpina, Corsica/Sardinia, Macedonia, Provincia, plus parts of Africa) when I hit 3rd Imperium. Added four more (Africa, Phazania, Libya, Aquitania, plus Alexandria region in Egypt) to hit 4th. I had also added a few client states along the way, which combined for control of 3 or 4 more provinces' worth of territory (I would suspect this contributes to imperium, but probably not as much as outright-conquered areas). I didn't particularly change my campaign direction to take mission-related territory...if missions coincided with plans already in progress, fine; if not, I didn't worry about it.
    Last edited by Bramborough; 09-12-2013 at 20:28.

  11. #11
    Strategist and Storyteller Member Myth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Civil War (playing as Rome)

    Quote Originally Posted by Bramborough View Post
    Interesting comment, and one with which I agree (at least in terms of "achievements" meaning conquest of additional territory). I've always thought it somewhat ironic that Rome was really at it's most expansionist and "imperial" when it was the "Republic", rather than "Empire". Modern-day France, Spain, North Africa, Egypt, Greece, Turkey, Balkans, and Syria/Levant all came under Roman control during the Republic. The Roman Empire, by contrast, mainly just kinda held on to what had already been won, with Britain and Dacia (I guess that would be roughly modern Romania?) really being the only major additions.

    This isn't necessarily because the Empire became somehow "softer". I'm reading an intriguing book right now (The Fall of the Roman Empire by Peter Heather) which argues that Roman expansion stopped at the Rhine/Danube rivers not because they were militarily unable to go further vs the Germanic tribes, but rather because socioeconomic development and inherent wealth in those areas simply made it non-cost-effective to do so. Just wasn't worth the blood, time, money, and effort.

    I wouldn't say, however, that Rome immediately started to deteriorate upon becoming the Empire. In terms of achievement, the Republic acquired all these areas, but under the Empire during 1st-3rd centuries, these areas thoroughly Romanized, and continued to assimilate and economically develop. Rome itself may not necessarily have become significantly richer and just a better place to live after the 1st century AD, but large areas under Roman rule certainly did. Worth noting, this was not some sort of top-down imposition, but rather enthusastically pursued by indigenous populations. Whatever the reasons for Rome's "fall" (an endlessly complex and fascinating topic), internal dissent and resistance to Roman rule by previously conquered peoples wasn't one of them. It's actually quite remarkable how little such internal disarray the Roman Empire experienced (not saying it didn't happen in places...just that it was surprisingly little given the Empire's size and manner in which it had been acquired).

    Back to the game, this is precisely why I stated that I think the "Empire" rewards are probably economic/cultural in nature. This would make sense to me, just as it's logical to me that the Republic bonuses are military recruitment related.
    Great analysis! Indeed, the Empire fell because primarily it's economy ran out of steam. They relied on fresh conquests to bring an influx of booty and slaves to Rome and the center of the Empire. Not having those meant stagnation. Also, the bloated borders required more manpower to be kept secure, but those soldiers required pay, food and equipment. That's perfectly fine if they were conquering and looting Egypt for example - they would not only pay for their upkeep but also bring Rome a net profit. But the same soldiers stationed as border guards no longer bring any income to the treasury, instead only draining it. And yes, conquering Germania and beyond made no sense, as the Germanic tribes didn't own cities that one could besiege and take. They did not adhere to the "civilized" rules of war. You can't swing a sword at a forest. You can't kill all the wild game in Germany. You could maybe destroy a sacred grove or spring - provided you could tell that they were sacred. But your men would be cold, miserable, tired, they'd be bled along the way and they would know there would be no sacking of glorious cities and no bags of gold cups and gemstones to haul back to Rome.

    In the east, they'd rub shoulders with Parthia but Crassus' military disaster there I think discouraged any serious Roman ambitions to go beyond the coast of the levant.

    The Emperors tried to be smart and adopt barbarians as foderati but that was sort of hit-and miss, though at the end (the very end) the opposition to Attila's huns was composed entirely of Gauls and other semi-romanized "barbarians". The Roman spread of culture was and still is to this day, a major factor for Europe. Perhaps THE major factor when we are talking about culture and language. Roman civil architecture and their values on reading and writing elevated the newly conquered peoples, but in the process also transformed their cultures and religions. We would have had a much more diverse and perhaps - interesting Europe today, had the natives kept their culture.

    Oh and let's not forget that early Rome a fierce warrior nation. Military success was closely tied with social and political success. The true Roman values and virtues were upheld (for the most part). By the time of the civil war, the values had shifted. One could now buy offices and favour was the new currency of the rich patrician class. This meant a streak of incompetent governors and generals would have a go at it, and boy did they do that! Most, if not all of Rome's major revolts were sparked because of completely selfish, corrupt and/or incompetent governors in that region. Boudicca comes to mind for example.

    And let's not forget that with the absolute power of the Emperor we had some disastrous candidates and actual emperors. Then there is the whole Praetorian Guard fiasco...

    Splitting the empire to Eastern and Western, with the east being much more rich, was also a mistake IMO.
    The art of war, then, is governed by five constant
    factors, to be taken into account in one's deliberations,
    when seeking to determine the conditions obtaining in the field.

    These are: (1) The Moral Law; (2) Heaven; (3) Earth;
    (4) The Commander; (5) Method and discipline.
    Sun Tzu, "The Art of War"
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  12. #12

    Default Re: Civil War (playing as Rome)

    So I'm roughly 125 turns in my normal difficulty game and I got the Civil War. My territories consisted of most of Gaul, all of Italy and Sicily, all but one territory of Africa, and a handful of other dotted settlements in and around Britain and Greece. I was rocking 83% Senate loyalty and was halfway through level three Imperium. I also had hand selected all of my Generals as Julia (my family) or Other Houses, figuring since the other main houses were trying to assassinate my family generals earlier I didn't want to give them any nice assignments. The war was triggered after my highest gravitas general fighting in Gaul defeated a three stack army trying to retake Trevorum, which resulted in a Heroic Victory. His gravitas is at 65.

    The Senate loyalists spawned in Singidum which was fortunate, considering I had two relatively decent stacks near Greece to carry out my Macedonian campaign in a few turns. They came with five stacks, consisting mostly of Praetorians, but with a sprinkling of velites, lesser legions, and in one case, a single ballista. The total composition of their armies greatly reflected my total composition - my army was mostly Praetorians, with the earlier armies still sporting a few lesser veterans and regular legions without a ton of cavalry or velite missile support. The single Ballista is also indicative of my recent training of a few ballista for me as well. The leads me to believe whatever units you have in your armies, the Senate Loyalists will spawn with roughly the same composition.

    They beelined Delminium where I had one army nearby to reinforce and attacked with one army while leaving three in reserve for reinforcement. The fourth went to. I would have fought the battle manually had the game not crashed. Reloading, I was able to carry out the battle. The AI as stated in every other R2TW thread, the AI is woefully incompetent. Of the four Generals present, I was able to snipe two of them from them charging in well-ahead of their infantry. My reinforcing army was also able take out a handful of their ranged support and cavalry (since they also ran inside the city before the infantry) before I retreated the main army out of the city, figuring the AI would capture the three victory points before I could get into a solid defensive position. Instead, they hung out in and around my city for the most part, while my leves through the remainder of their javelins from the safety of the wall.

    The stagnation was so bad I sent my cavalry around the outside of the city to snipe off the unprotected ballista just hanging out by its lonesome. They didn't even try shooting at me (though they were probably out of ammo). That accomplished, I sent them to snipe off some more random units that didn't bother to move. I had some serious control issues, causing one of my three Equite units to turn around and charge the veteran legionaries I did not want them to attack. I lost an entire unit thanks to this, though I really shouldn't be complaining since I got a lot of 'free' kills out of this engagement anyway. The infantry then followed my units around as if in tunnel vision, ignoring the fact I led them right into the range of my city towers I still controlled (towers didn't kill anything anyway).

    One hour later and no movement within the city, I 'won' the battle, taking a quarter of them down. The other army attacked and took Navissos, but not before the garrison took a third of them with them, along with its general.

    Couple turns later and they're spreading out, not really in the direction of Rome (though I suspect me stopping them at Delminium had something to do with that, I suspect this is them 'repathing' to go another way to Rome). Two armies headed toward Segestica, one went toward Navissos in an attempt to retake it, and the other two I can't locate. This is where I've stopped for now. My impressions:

    It's basically a rebellion, except with a 'major' civ as the revolties. There doesn't seem to be a rhyme or reason where they spawn, but it seems the effects can be minimized with some semblance of planning (ie, no outside the family members as important generals). I'm not at the 'pick a side' portion yet, but I'll be picking Empire and will report back once I'm there. At least on normal difficulty, it doesn't seem to be anything more than an annoyance and inconvenience, not a full-blown threat like the 'Civil War' that happened in the original Rome Total War.
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  13. #13
    Senior Member Senior Member ReluctantSamurai's Avatar
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    Default Re: Civil War (playing as Rome)

    At least on normal difficulty, it doesn't seem to be anything more than an annoyance and inconvenience, not a full-blown threat like the 'Civil War' that happened in the original Rome Total War
    OTOH, fighting endless stacks of legionnaires in R1 was definitely THE single most boring aspect of reaching the 50 province + Rome requirement to win the long campaign. An identifiable end (provided that you win, of course) seems a much better solution to me.

    Good post, btw....
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  14. #14

    Default Re: Civil War (playing as Rome)

    @ Backwards, thx for posting, some of my impressions seem supported by what happened with your CW, others maybe I wasn't on the mark. It does increasingly appear that Loyalist troop compositions reflect your own units (rather than tech level available). My thought that they Loyalists would spawn fairly close to Rome, however, may not be true; your Loyalists spawned farther out than I would have predicted. Is Singidum land-locked (I don't have the map up)? Most folks who've commented had same experience as me: 6 armies / 4 fleets of loyalists. I'm somewhat interested that you only had 5 army stacks come against you. Also, your 3rd-Imperium CW (vice 4th-Imp) seems consistent given 83% Senate influence. I'm also wondering if perhaps the fact that you had no Cornelii/Junii generals may have contributed...maybe they get more pissed off if they're not getting choice jobs?

    @ Myth, I think everything you say is true...but like so much else in Roman history (or really, any history), there's more to the story. In my mind, one of the Empire's biggest problems was inherent political instability at its very core...in the position of the Emperor itself. Augustus' biggest achievement was also possibly his biggest blunder...informally establishing himself as de facto emperor under a figurehead veneer of continuing de jure Republican institutions (as I'm sure you know, he never called himself "Emperor", just "First Citizen"). Ingenious as this may have been, it left open the question of who exactly qualified to be "emperor" in the first place...a question which was never fully resolved over the coming centuries. It certainly seemed to be dynastically inherited during several periods, but I think this was more because emperors were able to maneuver their sons and kin into positions where they could succeed, rather than due to a legalized monarchical succession. In any case, the biggest military threat to any Emperor came not from Germans, Goths, Persians, or any other external entity, but rather from Roman legions led by potential (and often actual) rivals.

    There is little doubt in my mind that the 3rd/4th century Roman Empire had ample economic/military strength to easily deal with the Goth "invasions" ("migrations" might be a better term), whether by repulsion, incorporation/assimilation, or combination thereof....IF it had also had the political cohesion and unchallenged imperial authority to allow a coherent, focused long-term policy. Sulla's and Caesar's ghosts, however, haunted the Empire throughout its duration...civil wars over imperial succession were always a threat and often a reality. As such, the Empire's most pressing problem (Goths, Persians, etc) was often not the Emperor's most pressing problem (his own security). This distraction I think led to some inconsistent, dilatory decisionmaking during the last century of the Western Empire, ultimately resulting in its political demise.

    There's really no reason to think that the Western Roman Empire was inherently ripe for collapse in the 400s. It may not have been as rich as the Eastern Empire, but neither was it impoverished, and it was certainly more economically developed and culturally unified than 4-5 centuries earlier when most of these areas had first come under Roman rule. Its inhabitants, moreover, were generally content, even happy. Indeed, most folks didn't even necessarily think of themselves as "under Roman rule", but rather as "Romans" themselves. The biggest driving factor in why the Germans & Goths came across the rivers in the first place wasn't an urge to destroy and replace...instead, they saw a good thing and wanted in on it. Culturally, economically, and/or militarily, the Empire could have handled that...if led by a secure Emperor whose first concern didn't always have to be protecting his own neck.

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  15. #15

    Default Re: Civil War (playing as Rome)

    Quote Originally Posted by Bramborough View Post
    @ Backwards, thx for posting, some of my impressions seem supported by what happened with your CW, others maybe I wasn't on the mark. It does increasingly appear that Loyalist troop compositions reflect your own units (rather than tech level available). My thought that they Loyalists would spawn fairly close to Rome, however, may not be true; your Loyalists spawned farther out than I would have predicted. Is Singidum land-locked (I don't have the map up)? Most folks who've commented had same experience as me: 6 armies / 4 fleets of loyalists. I'm somewhat interested that you only had 5 army stacks come against you. Also, your 3rd-Imperium CW (vice 4th-Imp) seems consistent given 83% Senate influence. I'm also wondering if perhaps the fact that you had no Cornelii/Junii generals may have contributed...maybe they get more pissed off if they're not getting choice jobs?
    Yea, Singidun is landlocked, and I only had the five. Dunno if that's a difficulty level related, the fact I had almost no Junii/Cornelia, neither, or a combination of both. I also ended the war in anti-climatic fashion: I wounded the last general with a Champion, giving me the 'Civil War Ends' pop-up (which I have to admit, was a bit of a letdown). I've chosen Empire and I think it reduced corruption. I don't know what I had pre-Civil War, but I'm fairly certain what I have now is less than before, probably in the neighborhood of 10%(?). I didn't see any changes regarding public order.
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  16. #16

    Default Re: Civil War (playing as Rome)

    Quote Originally Posted by Backwards Logic View Post
    Yea, Singidun is landlocked, and I only had the five. Dunno if that's a difficulty level related, the fact I had almost no Junii/Cornelia, neither, or a combination of both. I also ended the war in anti-climatic fashion: I wounded the last general with a Champion, giving me the 'Civil War Ends' pop-up (which I have to admit, was a bit of a letdown). I've chosen Empire and I think it reduced corruption. I don't know what I had pre-Civil War, but I'm fairly certain what I have now is less than before, probably in the neighborhood of 10%(?). I didn't see any changes regarding public order.
    No, I don't think it's because of difficulty level, I'm playing on Normal as well. I also don't think it's Imperium-related. My CW was at 4th level, but others have reported 3rd-Imperium CWs with the 6/4 stacks. Interesting thought about lack of Cornelii/Junii generals...that's a possibility. Also...how many armies did you have. Your cap was 9, but did you actually have 9 established? Which leads me to wonder if perhaps I might've had more Loyalist stacks spawn if I'd had my full 12 armies / 6 fleets.

    WRT Empire bonus, there ought to be a mouse-over tooltip in the middle of your Summary screen which tells you. I went a couple turns before I realized I had one there for Republic.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Civil War (playing as Rome)

    I had eight armies and zero fleets. And after mousing over (thanks!) I find a -10% to upkeep costs and minus 25% (!) to corruption. That's why my GPT went up.
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  18. #18

    Default Re: Civil War (playing as Rome)

    Quote Originally Posted by Backwards Logic View Post
    I had eight armies and zero fleets. And after mousing over (thanks!) I find a -10% to upkeep costs and minus 25% (!) to corruption. That's why my GPT went up.
    Wow, that's pretty good. The Republic bonuses aren't bad, but I like that much better. I feel like a doofus now.

  19. #19
    Senior Member Senior Member ReluctantSamurai's Avatar
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    Default Re: Civil War (playing as Rome)

    Which leads me to wonder if perhaps I might've had more Loyalist stacks spawn if I'd had my full 12 armies / 6 fleets.
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    Last edited by ReluctantSamurai; 09-13-2013 at 03:09.
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  20. #20

    Default Re: Civil War (playing as Rome)

    Triggered CW just a while back and was 2 turns in when I got my first crash. Posting some info here before I hit the sack. I was playing as Junii (normal), and the CW message popped at the start of the 65th turn (209BC), the turn after I hit Imperium level 4 on capturing my 38th settlement.

    The Senate loyalists took Pella as their capital and spawned 5 armies and 3 fleets (and after reloading the previous save) were all led by the 8 known members of the other distinguished houses. Though they formerly led 5 armies and 3 fleets of my armies, they did not assume their exact same position as rebel leaders, specifically 3 of them switched positions (gen to adm & vice-versa). Lost 2 spies and 1 dignitary, with the dignitary the only 1 I'm sure of that was accompanying a seceding general. Can't remember where the spies were but I faintly remember 1 spy to be near (if not at) Pella region. The loss of Pella dropped me back to Imperium 3. One turn in, their armies didn't stick together and seem to splintered a bit, but mostly to the south. Too early to make a conclusion, and will post more once I start a new session.

    As mentioned I had 38 settlements (w/ 11 fully controlled region and another 6 regions spread amongst 3 client-states) when Imperium 4 started, and took another one before I ended turn 64. My military was composed of 8 armies and 4 fleets. House Junii had 3 members w/ Faction Leader (age 53) having 48 gravitas, 2 ambition, while the other 2 had gravitas of 15 & 5. Funny thing though, my FL died the same turn as the CW. Senate support was at 44% when CW triggered, with the rebel Houses had 17% & 13%. Other house was at 26%. Senate support ratio was at 70/30 then for the 'loyal' houses. Possible lead perhaps?
    Last edited by glyphz; 09-13-2013 at 11:43.

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  21. #21
    Member Member Sp4's Avatar
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    Default Re: Civil War (playing as Rome)

    Quote Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai View Post
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    That is probably the effect of modding. I really don't see why people need more armies than the game allows. Makes it all interesting. Personally, I like the limited amount of armies and the fact that it is kind of hard to balance squalor against public order. Makes the game seem not as spammy and 'I'll just do whatever the hell I want' as older titles once you got to get an income of a trillion money.

  22. #22

    Default Re: Civil War (playing as Rome)

    Quote Originally Posted by glyphz View Post
    Triggered CW just a while back and was 2 turns in when I got my first crash. Posting some info here before I hit the sack. I was playing as Junii (normal), and the CW message popped at the start of the 65th turn (209BC), the turn after I hit Imperium level 4 on capturing my 38th settlement.

    The Senate loyalists took Pella as their capital and spawned 5 armies and 3 fleets (and after reloading the previous save) were all led by the 8 known members of the other distinguished houses. Though they formerly led 5 armies and 3 fleets of my armies, they did not assume their exact same position as rebel leaders, specifically 3 of them switched positions (gen to adm & vice-versa). Lost 2 spies and 1 dignitary, with the dignitary the only 1 I'm sure of that was accompanying a seceding general. Can't remember where the spies were but I faintly remember 1 spy to be near (if not at) Pella region. The loss of Pella dropped me back to Imperium 3. One turn in, their armies didn't stick together and seem to splintered a bit, but mostly to the south. Too early to make a conclusion, and will post more once I start a new session.

    As mentioned I had 38 settlements (w/ 11 fully controlled region and another 6 regions spread amongst 3 client-states) when Imperium 4 started, and took another one before I ended turn 64. My military was composed of 8 armies and 4 fleets. House Junii had 3 members w/ Faction Leader (age 53) having 48 gravitas, 2 ambition, while the other 2 had gravitas of 15 & 5. Funny thing though, my FL died the same turn as the CW. Senate support was at 44% when CW triggered, with the rebel Houses had 17% & 13%. Other house was at 26%. Senate support ratio was at 70/30 then for the 'loyal' houses. Possible lead perhaps?
    Interesting point...I hadn't thought to factor in "Other Houses" influence at the bottom. Didn't pay much attention to it in my campaign. Makes sense, though, since we know that the Other Houses will remain loyal during the CW. Perhaps the trick to early CW avoidance isn't merely keeping one's own influence in check within a certain range, but also maintaining a rough parity between "Own Family + Other Houses" versus "2 Opposing Families".

    In addition, your Loyalist spawn location pretty much confirms for me that my "pretty close to Rome" idea is not borne out by evidence. Pella is a pretty good distance away from Rome. At the other end of the spectrum, I've read others (playing other factions) state that their rebelling stacks spawned directly in their capital...so I presume the Loyalists could spawn in Roma itself. At this point, the pattern I see is that the CW stacks seem to spawn in a provincial capital, not a minor settlement. Backwards Logic and glyphz, did you have full control of Singidum's and Pella's provinces, respectively?

  23. #23

    Default Re: Civil War (playing as Rome)

    Quote Originally Posted by Bramborough View Post
    Backwards Logic and glyphz, did you have full control of Singidum's and Pella's provinces, respectively?
    All of Macedonia was Roman, completely Latin-ized and no unrest.

    edit:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    After playing some more, I'm thankful the CW triggered at Pella. I had recently got rid of the Odryzian(?) Kingdom, and kicked the Tribalii off of Thrace and forcing them into becoming a client-state by surrounding their last settlement in Dacia (where I didn't want to expand yet). Pergamum was my next target in the East since it had the other settlement in Thrace, and has carved itself a nice and secure kingdom in most of northern Anatolia (w/ their forces busy w/ Armenia). Since I was in the midst of pacifying my holdings in Thrace, I happen to have 2 legions there at Navissos and Pulpuduvum(?), plus one at Athens, one at Illyria in the midst of recruitment, and one army and fleet near Rhodos.

    Positioned my 2 legions in Thrace to just the north of Pella, with the southern legions and fleet sailed in haste to secure Athens, and the one in Illyria to Apollonia. As for enemy movement, one loyalist army took Larissa easily, 2 stopped further south in sight of Athens and Sparta, one also went south, but then curved west towards Apollonia, and the last sneaked around the NW mountains and stopped at the border of Illyria and Thrace. The navies went south near Athens.

    The hostile armies in Greece were still close enough to reinforce each other, so 2 N armies secured Pella, while the Athenian division (2a,1f) ganged up on and decimated as much of the enemy fleet as they can before quickly regrouping in Athens. The western legion chased after the enemy army in the mountains, but could not force an engagement, so I had a spy take out its general at least. End of turn, their army at Larissa left and besieged Athens by itself but didn't attack. The 2 armies that stuck together took Apollonia, while in the northern front the enemy army engaged mine in the field. Since the Illyrian army was in the midst of recruitment, they were near equal in number, and I had to manually assume control of the defense (this is where my first crash happened). It was my first time controlling gladiators, and they did impressively well as flank troops as well as ambush troops, suffering little casualties compared to my heavily-battered frontline legionnaires. The enemy fleets remained nearby in the Aegean, thankfully, and were duly sunk next turn. The next 2 turns were summarily used to gang-up on the remaining rebel armies and mopping-up the survivors. I feared the remaining armies in Apollonia would, after realizing that they were cornered, would sail to Italy, which was empty of any troops, but the campaign AI proved itself incompetent.
    First impression, the CW in Rome 2 feels like a downgrade, if not short, compared to Rome I CW (or perhaps I prefer the bigger scope in the former). With other Houses not having established their own empires in other parts of the world, like in Rome I, the CW feels constrained, and very short once you're able to bring back your legions to take control. The silly campaign AI doesn't seem to help at all. Though they do try to expand rapidly, they didn't defend their settlements. A few extra loyalist stacks will perhaps help them balance offense and defense, or perhaps giving them the whole province, or both, or ...nevermind
    Last edited by glyphz; 09-13-2013 at 22:55.

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  24. #24

    Default Re: Civil War (playing as Rome)

    I did not have the entirety of Pannonia (Singidun's Province); I was missing Akink. I did have full Latin Culture and my public order was at +100.
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  25. #25

    Default Re: Civil War (playing as Rome)

    Just got my CW as Carthage. I have only 6 armies, 26 regions and 6 provinces thus I am only at start of 3rd imperium. The other's family overall influence was 46% and mine a mere 18 with fairly low gravitas for my family. However I noticed that one of the rival families had a general with a gravitas of 51%. I reloaded and confirmed that if I weaken the individual general's gravitas I postpone the CW. I did not touch the Other family's influence so I am thinking that the trigger is a combination of family influence and individual gravitas, probably as others suggested a proportional calculation between your family and all of the others.

  26. #26
    Praeparet bellum Member Quillan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Civil War (playing as Rome)

    I suspect that the game adds up a total of "civil war points" every turn and compares that to a trigger number to see if the war triggers. I'd imagine that several things combine into that total: imperium, family influence, the influence of the other families within the faction, and probably ambition, but I can't say for certain what is most important. Here's a bit of a breakdown on my current game. It is 50 BC, and the civil war has not occurred yet.

    Game is normal/normal, as this is my first full campaign and I've been taking it very slowly learning about everything along the way. Most of the territory I've picked up has been from snagging rebellious provinces while the few war declarations have mainly been at the request of military allies or client states. I'm playing as the Julii, my current senate influence is 61% (down from 74%), my two good generals are rank 3 and 2 with gravitas 79 and 58 respectively. The Cornelii are at 11% influence, the Junii are at 10% influence, and the other houses are 17%. The drop in senate influence has come from several adoptions and a couple of promotions, trying to trigger the war. I've got 44 regions at the moment (like I said, taking it very slowly). I am into the fourth imperium level, but I've been there for 20 years plus at this point.

    The slow pace of this campaign has had a couple of consequences, one being that nobody has gotten huge amounts of gravitas/influence and no general has been beyond rank 4 to date. Since they've mainly been dying of old age (very old age sometimes, one general was still leading his army in the field at the age of 92) those who do get high gravitas tend to die shortly thereafter. Only now have I been pushing it; my leading family general is making 4 gravitas per turn and is only 37 years old. I've decided to finally conquer Iberia and he's leading the charge, taking all the glory himself. The thing is, he is ambition 2, while my other guy getting 3 gravitas per turn is only ambition 1. I could not adopt any ambition 3 generals who didn't have any negative gravitas per turn traits.
    Age and treachery will defeat youth and skill every time.

  27. #27
    Praeparet bellum Member Quillan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Civil War (playing as Rome)

    Ok, update. The civil war finally kicked off in 39 BC. My leading family general is 4 stars with a gravitas of 154 and ambition of 2. The turn before I took my 47th region. My family influence had fallen from the previous 61% down to 57%, and just climbed back up to the 60% mark this turn when the war triggered. All family members from the other two houses have left their posts and become generals or admirals; they chose as their capital Tarraco in Hispania, and there are presently 6 armies and 4 fleets next to it. All are 12/20 in size, but I don't have a spy close enough yet to get a composition.

    In this game, my standard army composition is as follows: general on horseback, 1 first cohort, 1 veteran legionaries, 8 legionaries, 2 equites, 4 velites, 2 Roman ballistae, and one other unit which is generally another legionary. I do have one legion with war dogs instead for that last slot, and everyone who says they are broken is correct. On the first turn, two armies headed overland from Tarraco toward Numantia (I had Legio II Italica parked on the road between Arse and the bridge; in hindsight I should have fortified at the bridge instead). The fleets all headed south towards Arse (I have three fleets there), but while mine are close enough for mutual support theirs are a bit scattered. The other four armies hopped on transports and sailed southeast. Whether they intend to go to Africa or Sicily remains to be seen, but they left Tarraco completely undefended and I can snag it this turn putting them all into attrition.

    Edit: Forgot agents. I mysteriously lost 2 champions, 2 dignitaries, and 1 spy when the civil war triggered. The champions could have been in armies training (most were), but the spies and dignitaries were standing in the open, none in Tarraco (dignitary in Arse, dignitary and spy in Judea). There were no messages about deaths or woundings, so they apparently just absconded. I hope they don't show up with the loyalists, that spy was pretty badass.
    Last edited by Quillan; 09-17-2013 at 00:32.
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  28. #28
    Stranger in a strange land Moderator Hooahguy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Civil War (playing as Rome)

    So my question is, when the civil war starts, does a portion of your forces go over to the rebels, or does a bunch of rebel stacks just appear?
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  29. #29
    Praeparet bellum Member Quillan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Civil War (playing as Rome)

    Quote Originally Posted by Hooahguy View Post
    So my question is, when the civil war starts, does a portion of your forces go over to the rebels, or does a bunch of rebel stacks just appear?
    None of my armies vanished. I was at 11/12 armies at the time (11 was just formed and still recruiting). All armies and fleets maintained the exact composition they had before. All the formerly Cornelii and Junii generals were replaced, however. 6 Loyalist armies and 4 loyalist fleets appeared instantly at their chosen capital. Their composition does vary, however. Here's what I can see at present:
    Legio II Martia: General, 8x legionaries, 2x equites, 1x Roman ballista
    Legio III Veneria: General, 2x First Cohort, 3x legionaries, 1x equites, 2x Roman ballista, 3x velites
    Legio V Victrix: General, 4x legionaries, 1x equites, 3x Roman ballista, 3x velites
    Legio I Hispana: General, 1x veteran legionaries, 3x legionaries, 1x equites, 5x velites, 1x ? (just too far away with the spy).
    Classis IV Fretensis: Admiral (tower hexareme), 1x ballista quinquireme, 2x missiles quincs (velites), 3x fire pot biremes (legionaries), 3x assault biremes (legionaries), 1 ea pursuit and raiding trihemiolia (leves)
    Age and treachery will defeat youth and skill every time.

  30. #30

    Default Re: Civil War (playing as Rome)

    Quote Originally Posted by Hooahguy View Post
    So my question is, when the civil war starts, does a portion of your forces go over to the rebels, or does a bunch of rebel stacks just appear?
    Yep, I had pretty much identical experience as Quillan. Lost my other-2-families generals, a few agents, none of my forces. Based on what Jacque Schtrapp posted, it appears you won't lose an army even if it is actually stationed in the Loyalists' spawn region.

    @Quillan, nice detail in their stack composition breakdown. Strongly supports (to the point of seeming to confirm) the idea that Loyalist troop composition will closely mirror the player's, and depends on what unit types the player has actually recruited, rather than the highest tech level to which the player has access.

    It would be interesting to see what happens in some sort of artificially exaggerated case...like perhaps the player has Level III barracks built, but hasn't upgraded the units in the field, which remain hastati/principes.

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