Cataphract Issues

[Jarmam]

This is from the beta patch 3:

• Melee defence has been reduced for most melee cavalry units and for some elite infantry units. (note: The Noble Cav that used to have the listed 88 melee defense are now listed as having 70 melee defense)
• Substantially reduced free hits from enemies in battles, when moving a unit through enemy units (without attacking them), so units can disengage with less penalty.

If it is true that Cataphracts are supposed to have their advantage in cav-vs-melee, with their low movement and weak anti-cav-performance as drawbacks to this, then I'd say the beta patch attempts to correct the unit. I havent tested it, but I will after this and edit in my results.

What is really interesting is, yet again, what exactly unit stats do. This annoyed me in Shogun 2 as well, since the closest thing to official explanations to stats didn't synch up with my results in tests. Cataphracts have good charge - aite, that makes sense, but what does a charge value do, exactly? How much of an advantage does 30 some more charge give?

[Sp4]

Shock cavalry = crap in melee. If they are not charging, they're doing it wrong.
Melee cavalry = not so crap in melee but still not great. You want to be charging with any cav really imo but melee cav beats shock cav in melee. They're also better at killing off units they charged into. Shock cav is more for the morale hit I guess. They are meant to end fights whereas melee cav seems like more of a battlefield fire brigade to me.

I have not played any factions with good shock cav yet, so I can't really comment on them an awful lot but I find them less versatile and useful than melee cav.

[Quillan]

I just started trying out the Socii Equites Extraordinarii you can recruit with a high level auxiliary barracks in Italia. They have a tremendous charge, horrible melee defense, and seem similar in function to cats. I think I'll stick with other cavalry. They hit VERY hard, but if they don't rout what they impact, they're going to be in trouble without support. Plus, they get tired much more quickly than the other cavalry I've used, so they don't work very well chasing down routers. The main thing I like about them is hearing the guy call out the name when you select them; it seems to take about 10 minutes.

[ReluctantSamurai]

How much of an advantage does 30 some more charge give?

If you watched the video in the OP, virtually nothing compared to an insanely high defense. The one time the cats got a decent kill off of their charge, it didn't take too long for the other cav unit to even the odds and then gain the upper hand.

I just started trying out the Socii Equites Extraordinarii you can recruit with a high level auxiliary barracks in Italia.

The Romans with heavy cavalry?... in this time period?? that's just....well it's just not right (first recorded use of equites cataphractarii was around the 2d century AD although 'armored riders' were 'in use' as early as the 2d century BC). Definitely a nod to the "console crowd"

They hit VERY hard, but if they don't rout what they impact, they're going to be in trouble without support.

This. If you look at how the Parthians used their cats, they almost always had CA support nearby after the debacles at Magnesia (189 BC a Seleucid defeat) and Tigranocerta (69 BC an Armenian defeat), Carrhae (53 BC) being the perfect example.

In my Armenian campaigns for R1, my heavy cats worked best when echelon-ed...the first wave hit and disorganized formations, the second delivered the killing/routing blow. I did a similar thing with Seleucid cats, only the first wave was scythed chariots. The support came from CA's out on the flanks who would switch from archery to melee shortly after the heavy cats hit. Now R1 is certainly no shining example as a battle sim, but heavy cats did seem to work better with support.

[Sp4]

The Romans with heavy cavalry?... in this time period?? that's just....well it's just not right (first recorded use of equites cataphractarii was around the 2d century AD although 'armored riders' were 'in use' as early as the 2d century BC). Definitely a nod to the "console crowd"

It doesn't say cataphractiii. If you're worried, the Roman cav in the game is sort of crap compared to most others.

[Quillan]

The Romans with heavy cavalry?... in this time period?? that's just....well it's just not right

The Romans really don't have heavy cavalry at all. All the Romans get are "equites", which the games classes as medium melee cavalry, until you research Professional Soldiery. After that, they become Legionary Cavalry, which is classed as heavy melee cavalry. Those two are basically the same: riders with some armor, on horses with no armor, wielding spears. They have a low melee attack score, middling armor rating without an upgrade, and decent melee defense. They also don't tire out quickly. The Socii are Italian allies. The SEE unit is a mailed rider on an unarmored horse wielding basically a kontos. It's a two handed lance, though I don't know what the Romans called it. They are classed as heavy shock cavalry; their special ability "Trample" causes their charge bonus to last about 30 seconds or so, they cannot form wedge, and they get tired rather quickly. They have a very high charge rating but their melee defense is 11. They are not catatanks in any stretch of the imagination.

[ReluctantSamurai]

If you're worried

No...no....not worried. My comment about the Romans having heavy cavalry was pretty much tongue-in-cheek

After that, they become Legionary Cavalry, which is classed as heavy melee cavalry. Those two are basically the same: riders with some armor, on horses with no armor, wielding spears.

These guys you would expect by 150BC to 50BC.....

The SEE unit is a mailed rider on an unarmored horse wielding basically a kontos.

These guys don't show up in Roman OOB's for another 200 yrs. or so

[Grin]

Couple things I noticed that seem relevent

Cataphracts will lose to most barbaian heavy 'melee' calvary because they are spear calvary and share traits with spear infantry.

They've also overhauled the way armour and health work. Units have to be 'worn down' by ranged fire, melee, or repeated charges before your going to see the high damage charges we're used to in these games. Especially the high armoured late game units.