Cataphract Issues

[Quillan]

I just started trying out the Socii Equites Extraordinarii you can recruit with a high level auxiliary barracks in Italia. They have a tremendous charge, horrible melee defense, and seem similar in function to cats. I think I'll stick with other cavalry. They hit VERY hard, but if they don't rout what they impact, they're going to be in trouble without support. Plus, they get tired much more quickly than the other cavalry I've used, so they don't work very well chasing down routers. The main thing I like about them is hearing the guy call out the name when you select them; it seems to take about 10 minutes.

[ReluctantSamurai]

How much of an advantage does 30 some more charge give?

If you watched the video in the OP, virtually nothing compared to an insanely high defense. The one time the cats got a decent kill off of their charge, it didn't take too long for the other cav unit to even the odds and then gain the upper hand.

I just started trying out the Socii Equites Extraordinarii you can recruit with a high level auxiliary barracks in Italia.

The Romans with heavy cavalry?... in this time period?? that's just....well it's just not right (first recorded use of equites cataphractarii was around the 2d century AD although 'armored riders' were 'in use' as early as the 2d century BC). Definitely a nod to the "console crowd"

They hit VERY hard, but if they don't rout what they impact, they're going to be in trouble without support.

This. If you look at how the Parthians used their cats, they almost always had CA support nearby after the debacles at Magnesia (189 BC a Seleucid defeat) and Tigranocerta (69 BC an Armenian defeat), Carrhae (53 BC) being the perfect example.

In my Armenian campaigns for R1, my heavy cats worked best when echelon-ed...the first wave hit and disorganized formations, the second delivered the killing/routing blow. I did a similar thing with Seleucid cats, only the first wave was scythed chariots. The support came from CA's out on the flanks who would switch from archery to melee shortly after the heavy cats hit. Now R1 is certainly no shining example as a battle sim, but heavy cats did seem to work better with support.

[Sp4]

The Romans with heavy cavalry?... in this time period?? that's just....well it's just not right (first recorded use of equites cataphractarii was around the 2d century AD although 'armored riders' were 'in use' as early as the 2d century BC). Definitely a nod to the "console crowd"

It doesn't say cataphractiii. If you're worried, the Roman cav in the game is sort of crap compared to most others.

[Quillan]

The Romans with heavy cavalry?... in this time period?? that's just....well it's just not right

The Romans really don't have heavy cavalry at all. All the Romans get are "equites", which the games classes as medium melee cavalry, until you research Professional Soldiery. After that, they become Legionary Cavalry, which is classed as heavy melee cavalry. Those two are basically the same: riders with some armor, on horses with no armor, wielding spears. They have a low melee attack score, middling armor rating without an upgrade, and decent melee defense. They also don't tire out quickly. The Socii are Italian allies. The SEE unit is a mailed rider on an unarmored horse wielding basically a kontos. It's a two handed lance, though I don't know what the Romans called it. They are classed as heavy shock cavalry; their special ability "Trample" causes their charge bonus to last about 30 seconds or so, they cannot form wedge, and they get tired rather quickly. They have a very high charge rating but their melee defense is 11. They are not catatanks in any stretch of the imagination.

[ReluctantSamurai]

If you're worried

No...no....not worried. My comment about the Romans having heavy cavalry was pretty much tongue-in-cheek

After that, they become Legionary Cavalry, which is classed as heavy melee cavalry. Those two are basically the same: riders with some armor, on horses with no armor, wielding spears.

These guys you would expect by 150BC to 50BC.....

The SEE unit is a mailed rider on an unarmored horse wielding basically a kontos.

These guys don't show up in Roman OOB's for another 200 yrs. or so

[Grin]

Couple things I noticed that seem relevent

Cataphracts will lose to most barbaian heavy 'melee' calvary because they are spear calvary and share traits with spear infantry.

They've also overhauled the way armour and health work. Units have to be 'worn down' by ranged fire, melee, or repeated charges before your going to see the high damage charges we're used to in these games. Especially the high armoured late game units.

[Jarmam]

So yeah.. the AI isnt as helpful as it was in earlier games and wont let me do a full melee. So cant test the new patch status on our favourite metal dress Persians vs The Tanks of the Barbs. What I can document is that breaking off a melee with cavalry now loses you less guys than before. It still hurts, but not as badly.

Specifically related to Cataphracts is their formation, which is effective for a charge but it has the nasty sideeffect of this efficiency: The unit will plow into the enemy unit to hit as many as possible with the charge - which is good! The problem is that when disengaging (which, I will remind our noble audience, is the point of shock cavalry) the individual riders get stuck in the enemy formation! I lose maybe 10 horsemen when disengaging (fewer than the 30+ prepatch) and then 10 more than are sort of stuck in the enemy. And maybe due to their royal status the rest of the unit faithfully wait for their trapped comrades, which means they will disengage slower to "allow the rest to catch up". Boys... the rest are dead. Haul ***! I cant charge if you dont put distance between you and the Gauls!

One thing I also found was that units seem to tire off very quickly when fighting, as in, when I charge a group of Oathsworn (be afraid btw) I will deal a massive blow within the first few seconds, and now both units are exhausted? What? I know that exhausting was way too slow pre-patch but this is ridiculous. And this hurts Shock Cavalry much harder than other units, especially Cataphracts. They're slow already, there really is no need at all for them to run any slower!

[VAE VICTUS]

I took someone's advice here and charge in a staggered line, or just avoid using them unless I have to. They demolish archers, so I space archers from their support, crush the archers, then surround and chip away at the infantry until they run away or are ready to break at a charge. Cavalry make it tricky, but H/A usually deal with them, although I haven't face the Barbarian tanks. I do weep at the trend of consolizing this game. Can't wait for all the mods that will fix it.