Pre Marian troops

**Veho Nex** · 09-26-2013, 04:23

Has anyone noticed a huge drop in performance for pre marian reform troops? Ever since patch 2, the final release not the beta portion, Ive noticed my hastati and principes severely lacking on the field of battle. I just had a battle against an army that composed of about half slingers and half short swordsmen. It was an ambush and I hit them on both sides. My hastati barely killed anything before retreating and the same with my principes. My highest KO unit was velites and thats because they werent in combat. My hastati and principes couldnt even keep a 1:1 kdr.

**Myth** · 09-26-2013, 08:45

I think maybe their morale has been lowered. I had some morale issues when fighting phalanxes before I got to pretorians. The kill rate has been lowered across the board to give us slower battles. However one still can lose quickly to a chain rout, so you have to place your lines and general wisely.

I'd say go for Principes as fast as you can, and then upgrade them to legion level.

**Veho Nex** · 09-26-2013, 09:12

Originally Posted by Myth

I think maybe their morale has been lowered. I had some morale issues when fighting phalanxes before I got to pretorians. The kill rate has been lowered across the board to give us slower battles. However one still can lose quickly to a chain rout, so you have to place your lines and general wisely.

I'd say go for Principes as fast as you can, and then upgrade them to legion level.

Im forcing myself to not just bum rush legions before a decent marian reform timeframe. Its just kinda silly that even in an ambush with vetted units vs non vetted that my guys are getting slayed so hard. Im not sure whats causing the issue because it was a chain route status until i had lost half my men while the enemy barely lost a few hundred.

**Sp4** · 09-26-2013, 09:13

Hastati and Principes are pretty poop, yes. Get legionaires as soon as you leave Italy ^^

**Veho Nex** · 09-26-2013, 09:33

Originally Posted by Sp4

Hastati and Principes are pretty poop, yes. Get legionaires as soon as you leave Italy ^^

They werent poop before. I used to be able to do the double charge and rout any troops without fail. They are just weaklings now. I can't find anything in the patch notes that explains why they should be so freaking bad compared to barbarian peasants.

**Sp4** · 09-26-2013, 10:16

Originally Posted by Veho Nex

They werent poop before. I used to be able to do the double charge and rout any troops without fail. They are just weaklings now. I can't find anything in the patch notes that explains why they should be so freaking bad compared to barbarian peasants.

Morale changes and fights lasting longer.

**Myth** · 09-26-2013, 10:58

They had too high a kill rate and because their inherent defence is high compared to Carthagenian/Etruscan troops they rocked. Even pre-patch you'd get diced by elite Spartans, Athenians or Macedonians, and Jupiter help you if the Gauls ever got to their top units and you were still using Hastati.

The new mechanic makes it so when a unit has a steady trend of losing at some point there is a breaking line and casualties start flying up, which makes the unit rout. It's historically accurate - pitched battles didn't end up with last man standing slaughters. When there was an avenue for retreat, the men would do so at about 25%-30% casualties given. People don't want to die.

**Veho Nex** · 09-26-2013, 17:27

But when did they knock it down the the point where barbarian shortswords and spearmen become stronger than gold vetted bronze armored units? Im only on turn 40~ theres no way I should be that outclassed already

**Sp4** · 09-26-2013, 18:17

Originally Posted by Veho Nex

But when did they knock it down the the point where barbarian shortswords and spearmen become stronger than gold vetted bronze armored units? Im only on turn 40~ theres no way I should be that outclassed already

Compare the stats of the two units. I don't think short swords are as bad as you are trying to make them look. Hastati on the other hand do really look pretty weak with their nonexistant armour and all ^^

**phred** · 09-26-2013, 19:26

I've started some battles where the adviser tells me "the men are wavering" at the start of the battle.
And I mean really at the start of the battle, right after I press the "Start Battle" button (or whatever it's called).
I haven't researched Legionnaires yet, but perhaps I should.

**Sp4** · 09-26-2013, 20:07

That can happen if you deploy your men really far away from your general. Some very cheap units can't cope with that too well ^^

**lars573** · 09-27-2013, 06:00

Any lower tier unit too far from the general for too long will crap bricks and book it. It's a question of when not if.

**AntiDamascus** · 09-27-2013, 16:27

I'm not gonna lie, last night I looked at this thread and thought it said "Pre-Martian troops" and I got all confused and then had a great idea for a story.