The rest of the world thinks you're silly

[Goofball]

Good discussion about the American healthcare debate from a "damn foreigner" point of view. It seems that opponents of "Obamacare" (a stupider term I don't think I've ever heard) are driven by a lingering memory of the cold war and the evil influence of communism/socialism. Here's the latest message: public health care does not mean that you will soon be nationalizing oil companies. Get over it and do the right thing for your people. And oh yeah, tell Cruz to shut the hell up; he's an idiot. http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinio...852_story.html

[Goofball]

Also, I forgot to add: Jesus would have completely endorsed socialized medicine. Discuss.

[Strike For The South]

Also, I forgot to add: Jesus would have completely endorsed socialized medicine. Discuss.

THERE WE HAVE IT, PROBLEM SOLVED

[Myth]

Having social benefits is great. Bulgaria is an ex-communist country and I've been brought up as a rabid anty-commie by my father. However, I can see some benefits of the socialism philosophy. Free health care, free education and goverment regulation on the prices of the most important commodities - bread, meat, dairy products, eggs, petrol, medicine, meant that the people lived without the fear of what they will eat tomorrow or if they will have 200 euro for their first grader's textbooks this fall.

Nobody is denied an operation or a medical procedure. Not like today where you have to go and buy your own bandages or you're left to rot. There was no fertile land which was not used for agriculture. Sure, the concept of private property in regards to fertile land was basically fiction as one could not opt out of the TKZS large-scale agricultural development format. But this also meant Bulgaria was a major producer of grain, tomatoes, plums, grapes (and wine) and such. We were exporting and we had enough surplus to saturate our own market.

Is this bad? Can't say. It probably is, but the alternatives are not that great either. But having fertile land growing weeds and shrubs now is the worst, considering our warm climate is great for quality fruit and vegetables. But back on the topic of health care - all goverments take in millions (some billions) from their people as taxes. In fact, if you sit down and calculate just how much of what we make we give to the gov. as taxes you'd see that druing the middle ages, revolts have happened and kings have been detrhoned for raising taxes to an extent of a fraction of what we conisder normal taxes today. So why shouldn't some of these huge piles of money go for OUR health and well-being?

[Major Robert Dump]

Goofball are you even familiar with the law? You do realize it's not socialized medicine, right? You do realize it is socialized insurance, right?

I do realize that typical Washington dc politics is what kept us from getting a proper single payer system, which is ridiculous considering we already have such a system called Medicaid and we could have just expanded it.

Instead we get the Affordable Care Act, which is government mandated and subsidized insurance. This was, of course, supposed to be a way to penalize people -- particularly poor people -- in a manner that makes them get insurance rather than sucking the tit of the system. Except now we are getting talk of exempting poor people from the penalties which defeats the purpose it began with. We also are now seeing big companies get exemptions from having to subsidize employees insurance.... we also just had the employer mandate pushed back a year.... but not the individual mandate.... so people still buy the insurance or get penalized but employers don't have to help them hahahaha

Oh wait, theres more. The law also had dozens of rules for things that had nothing to do with healthcare, like "creating jobs" by outsourcing student loan servicing to outside banks instead of the DOE, which means changing your due date for your loan payment now takes 10 phone calls and 40 emails between you, the DOE and the IRS whereas before it took one single email

So we have a healthcare law that was castrated by Republicans who didn't' want single payer; a law that was filled with crony favors by crony lovers Dems and Repubs to pander to the health insurance industry, an industry that was largely responsible for rising care costs to begin with; we have large companies and government itself exempt from the law; we have the enforcement coming from the IRS, one of the most inefficient, unfair and outdated government agencies in the universe that exists solely to keep itself alive through indecipherable tax code and butcher tactics; oh, and my personal favorite.... if I spend more than 30 total days CONUS (nonconsecutive or otherwise) I have to buy into this retarded healthcare exchange or get penalized by the IRS, even though I reside in a foreign country where I use local insurance or pay out of pocket because I can afford to, and belong to the only nation in the world that makes its citizens pay to revoke citizenship. Oh yeah, and that "undocumented immigrants won't be covered" ruse, which is funny because undocumented immigrants dont file federal tax returns so they don't get penalized for not having but they can reap any benefit of having it

Basically, what started as a good idea got turned retarded by Republicans and Democrats, most of whom never even read the law. Now, it is a cluster, it's teeth have been removed, many will lose their current health coverage, many more will gain no benefit yet pay more, and what started as a way to provide healthcare to the middle class and the poor has quickly turned into nothing more than a tax on the middle class and government subsidation of immoral insurance companies.

That is what the rest of the world should be laughing at, not some false pretense that Americans do not want socialized medicine.

[Husar]

That is what the rest of the world should be laughing at, not some false pretense that Americans do not want socialized medicine.

Wrong. All this happens because Americans have to and want to pander to the companies and their owners because pandering to them makes them benevolent in the sense that they create underpaid minimum wage jobs so Americans can follow the American dream of accumulating debt, not being able to afford food and never working their way up because they could never afford an education.
That is what Americans want and the politicians just implemented that instead of a filthy communist law that would provide fairness in healthcare.

Everybody with a business 101 degree knows that fairness stifles competition, progress and the American Way. Organ donations should really be sold in auctions so that the most productive, richest citizens can buy them and prosper through a competitive process of natural selection as Jesus intended.

[Xiahou]

Basically, what started as a good idea got turned retarded by Republicans and Democrats, most of whom never even read the law.

At what point or in what form was it ever a good idea? Healthcare reform may be a good idea- but at no point did the Affordable Care Act ever resemble anything that could be called "a good idea".

Our healthcare system is a mess- it started circling the drain with The New Deal and has had a steady decline since. But I'm not aware of any country's healthcare system that doesn't have its share of fleas- unsustainable costs, poor service, and so on....

Real reform in the US would start by breaking the perverse relationship between insurance and employment. Once should not depend on the other. When I was last unemployed, I was able to purchase a great HMO plan for my family. Reasonable prices- and it gave us the level of coverage we needed.

In fact, I liked it so much that I wanted to keep it when I did get a job. I asked to turn down my employer's insurance and keep my private plan. Guess what? They told me they were legally unable to off me individual coverage if coverage was offered by my employer. How stupid is that?

[HopAlongBunny]

Something that might help with spiraling cost would be breaking the linkage between "reverence for life" and "infliction of unlimited suffering"; having myself been brought back from the brink in the past, I realize this is a touchy subject...

[Ironside]

At what point or in what form was it ever a good idea? Healthcare reform may be a good idea- but at no point did the Affordable Care Act ever resemble anything that could be called "a good idea".

Our healthcare system is a mess- it started circling the drain with The New Deal and has had a steady decline since. But I'm not aware of any country's healthcare system that doesn't have its share of fleas- unsustainable costs, poor service, and so on....

True, but the thing is you pay about 50-100% more than anyone else (in ppp GDP/capita) and it's not noted in coverage nor quality (it's mediocre at best on average), except for a top few people.

That's pretty severe.

In addition, we traditionally have not been willing to accept the rate of taxation necessary to fund such a program as the Austrian two-tier. The total tax burden on yanks with the highest income streams is usually less than 50% including federal income taxes, state and local sales and property taxes/fees, and other minor levies. Our capital gains tax is set at 23.8% for our highest earner brackets (and many of our richest have little or no wage income thus qualifying for the 15 capital gains rate).

A tax reform with fewer brackets and more importantly, place the capital gains tax on a fixed value comparable to the average income holder or even higher, rather than having "legal tax dodging for the rich" avenue open. Have it ever been a real movement to fix the capital gains loophole? It's a such obvious one.

[InsaneApache]

Also, I forgot to add: Jesus would have completely endorsed socialized medicine. Discuss.

Here in the UK if you go into hospital you've got more than an even chance of meeting him.

National Death Service we call it. Google it and your blood will run cold.

[Beskar]

Here in the UK if you go into hospital you've got more than an even chance of meeting him.
National Death Service we call it. Google it and your blood will run cold.

Clearly there is a mismatch between your experiences and my own when you come out with a statement like that.

The downsides with the NHS is the relation with the private sector, usually with private payments taking a priority over the 'free' (some doctors do out of hours or allow private referrals) and private services such as a bed-side basic TV costing £5-per-day and the waiting times for non-essential operations or having to wait a couple of months for a free hip replacement opposed to paying over $50,000 in the United States and still having to wait a while.

A lot of people take the service for granted, but even then, it is something like 4 out of 6 operations are for the over 65. It clearly takes care of the vulnerable old people.

[InsaneApache]

Clearly there is a mismatch between your experiences and my own when you come out with a statement like that.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/he...l-scandal.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Furness..._investigation

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stafford_Hospital_scandal

Oh and to quote the late Frank Carson..."and there's more!"

It clearly takes care of the vulnerable old people.

Aye they do. Three words.

Liverpool Care Pathway.

[Beskar]

So you cherry pick the odd examples for confirmation bias opposed to the great many Hospitals and services which are active within the country?

It is like saying women are worse drivers than men, cherry picking news articles which involve women drivers, and ignoring the volumes of data which statistically show that male drivers are more likely to be in an accident and receive driving offences.

[Papewaio]

Also, I forgot to add: Jesus would have completely endorsed socialized medicine. Discuss.

He was a confirmed wino who shared his body around even with complete strangers...

[Seamus Fermanagh]

He was a confirmed wino who shared his body around even with complete strangers...

Well, he asked to be remembered. Gotta check that block as completed.

[Papewaio]

He was a confirmed wino who shared his body around even with complete strangers...

For those not making the connection:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eucharist

[Xiahou]

The whole pre existing conditions thing alone makes it a step forward...

Ending the ability for insurers to refuse you based on pre-existing conditions and still calling the product "insurance" is crazy.

That's like buying mechanical breakdown insurance on your car after you blew up the engine and being shocked when they won't pay your claim.

[Montmorency]

That's like buying mechanical breakdown insurance on your car after you blew up the engine and being shocked when they won't pay your claim.

Not quite. To make it analogous to the earlier pre-existing conditions coverage paradigm: you have a harder time getting or keeping breakdown-insurance if your car has previously broken-down (and subsequently been repaired, of course); previous breakdowns or other mechanical malfunctions raise the projected costs-over-time for the insurer.

Ending the ability for insurers to refuse you based on pre-existing conditions and still calling the product "insurance" is crazy.

It's misleading - but what do you expect from a country that has decided to continue to permit insurance agencies to be some of the leading payers in the national health-care system?

[Husar]

Ending the ability for insurers to refuse you based on pre-existing conditions and still calling the product "insurance" is crazy.

That's like buying mechanical breakdown insurance on your car after you blew up the engine and being shocked when they won't pay your claim.

If you think humans are like cars then you also shouldn'tcomplain if your wife doesn't use you for a month or replaces you with a new model.
Maybe your definition of insurance simply doesn't suit human requirements.
And a lot of it could be alleviated by insuring everyone before they have preexisting conditions unless they have them from birth so that's a bit problematic, especially if you're against abortions.

[Brenus]

“Do you know much about Vietnam war?” Matter of fact, err, yes.

“Tourists? In Afghanistan?” US Armies? Just joking. No, tourists somewhere else, like a Commercial Centre in whatever country full of USAnians tourists.

“Did the Illuminati tell you that?” No. Observation and quick look on US military Budget: Impressive for so little results.

“We can deal with that.” The attack on the Twin Towers showed than you didn’t and can’t. You fall in Bin Laden trap, and now have to face even more enemies. Well done and manage… USA is so predictable…

“the war in Iraq is over” Good I was not drinking coffee above my keyboard… This is the worst month in Iraq in killings and bomb attacks. Well, I understand now, if it is how you qualify a war to be over by this standard…

“It's a hobby” Good one.

even the French...shame on you: I know it is Nationalism, but you should really study as you will find out that France is the most successful country in term of Military successes.
I always wonder why I am proud of this, when it is shame that France was so involved in wars. France conquered lands all over the World,had two Colonial Empires, lost both) attacked and was attacked by numerous countries, won more battles than lost (reason why France still exists) and then, why I am proud of it?

[Papewaio]

USA is just a realm divide from the British Empire as far as external factions are concerned. ;)

[InsaneApache]

Indeed.

[Major Robert Dump]

maybe the long term goal is to nationalize all insurance companies.

[Brenus]

“They lost everything they ever won.” Ridicule, you are. France still exists, so what did France lost? Her Empires gained on invasions and exploitation? That is good news. The UNIVERSAL declaration of Human Rights is a by-product of the French Revolution, as the metric-system, Code of Laws in Continental Europe…

“What's to be proud of with France?” Study History instead of listening prejudices. I know it is a lot to ask.

[Husar]

“They lost everything they ever won.” Ridicule, you are. France still exists, so what did France lost? Her Empires gained on invasions and exploitation? That is good news. The UNIVERSAL declaration of Human Rights is a by-product of the French Revolution, as the metric-system, Code of Laws in Continental Europe…

Heh, but Vuk and especially rvg just tried to tell everyone that Americans do not care about morals, human rights or humans without an American passport as long as they can benefit by not giving a poop. Their ideals promote a struggle and cmpetition and the winner takes all, losers aren't worth thinking about. And since the USA are the big winner, they can do whatever they want, morals are not a concern. Unless someone flashes a nipple, boy, now that is a problem!

[Seamus Fermanagh]

maybe the long term goal is to nationalize all insurance companies.

Just health insurance. The current set-ups for Life and Property/Casualty are a pretty comfortable fit for government.

Regarding health insurance, the basic premise is that all persons should receive healthcare as a basic human right, and that to deny healthcare is to deny the personhood of that individual.

A national health care system would provide equal access to medical care for any and all citizens without favoring those economically advantaged persons who, under the current system, can afford premier coverage or fee-for-service while others simply cannot.

The ACA becomes an effective tool for achieving this by requiring all persons to pay for coverage and requiring insurance companies to offer coverage to persons with pre-existing conditions. Of itself, this is not a problem for insurance, but it will be virtually impossible for the Government to allow companies to charge premiums that accurately reflect the increased risk associated with persons who have such conditions. When government imposed premium limits make the numbers untenable for private companies, they will drop out of providing health coverage. Eventually, this will generate the need for government-run healthcare following a two-tier approach such as that seen in Austria and elsewhere.