The rest of the world thinks you're silly

[Goofball]

Good discussion about the American healthcare debate from a "damn foreigner" point of view. It seems that opponents of "Obamacare" (a stupider term I don't think I've ever heard) are driven by a lingering memory of the cold war and the evil influence of communism/socialism. Here's the latest message: public health care does not mean that you will soon be nationalizing oil companies. Get over it and do the right thing for your people. And oh yeah, tell Cruz to shut the hell up; he's an idiot. http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinio...852_story.html

[Goofball]

Also, I forgot to add: Jesus would have completely endorsed socialized medicine. Discuss.

[Strike For The South]

Also, I forgot to add: Jesus would have completely endorsed socialized medicine. Discuss.

THERE WE HAVE IT, PROBLEM SOLVED

[Myth]

Having social benefits is great. Bulgaria is an ex-communist country and I've been brought up as a rabid anty-commie by my father. However, I can see some benefits of the socialism philosophy. Free health care, free education and goverment regulation on the prices of the most important commodities - bread, meat, dairy products, eggs, petrol, medicine, meant that the people lived without the fear of what they will eat tomorrow or if they will have 200 euro for their first grader's textbooks this fall.

Nobody is denied an operation or a medical procedure. Not like today where you have to go and buy your own bandages or you're left to rot. There was no fertile land which was not used for agriculture. Sure, the concept of private property in regards to fertile land was basically fiction as one could not opt out of the TKZS large-scale agricultural development format. But this also meant Bulgaria was a major producer of grain, tomatoes, plums, grapes (and wine) and such. We were exporting and we had enough surplus to saturate our own market.

Is this bad? Can't say. It probably is, but the alternatives are not that great either. But having fertile land growing weeds and shrubs now is the worst, considering our warm climate is great for quality fruit and vegetables. But back on the topic of health care - all goverments take in millions (some billions) from their people as taxes. In fact, if you sit down and calculate just how much of what we make we give to the gov. as taxes you'd see that druing the middle ages, revolts have happened and kings have been detrhoned for raising taxes to an extent of a fraction of what we conisder normal taxes today. So why shouldn't some of these huge piles of money go for OUR health and well-being?

[Major Robert Dump]

Goofball are you even familiar with the law? You do realize it's not socialized medicine, right? You do realize it is socialized insurance, right?

I do realize that typical Washington dc politics is what kept us from getting a proper single payer system, which is ridiculous considering we already have such a system called Medicaid and we could have just expanded it.

Instead we get the Affordable Care Act, which is government mandated and subsidized insurance. This was, of course, supposed to be a way to penalize people -- particularly poor people -- in a manner that makes them get insurance rather than sucking the tit of the system. Except now we are getting talk of exempting poor people from the penalties which defeats the purpose it began with. We also are now seeing big companies get exemptions from having to subsidize employees insurance.... we also just had the employer mandate pushed back a year.... but not the individual mandate.... so people still buy the insurance or get penalized but employers don't have to help them hahahaha

Oh wait, theres more. The law also had dozens of rules for things that had nothing to do with healthcare, like "creating jobs" by outsourcing student loan servicing to outside banks instead of the DOE, which means changing your due date for your loan payment now takes 10 phone calls and 40 emails between you, the DOE and the IRS whereas before it took one single email

So we have a healthcare law that was castrated by Republicans who didn't' want single payer; a law that was filled with crony favors by crony lovers Dems and Repubs to pander to the health insurance industry, an industry that was largely responsible for rising care costs to begin with; we have large companies and government itself exempt from the law; we have the enforcement coming from the IRS, one of the most inefficient, unfair and outdated government agencies in the universe that exists solely to keep itself alive through indecipherable tax code and butcher tactics; oh, and my personal favorite.... if I spend more than 30 total days CONUS (nonconsecutive or otherwise) I have to buy into this retarded healthcare exchange or get penalized by the IRS, even though I reside in a foreign country where I use local insurance or pay out of pocket because I can afford to, and belong to the only nation in the world that makes its citizens pay to revoke citizenship. Oh yeah, and that "undocumented immigrants won't be covered" ruse, which is funny because undocumented immigrants dont file federal tax returns so they don't get penalized for not having but they can reap any benefit of having it

Basically, what started as a good idea got turned retarded by Republicans and Democrats, most of whom never even read the law. Now, it is a cluster, it's teeth have been removed, many will lose their current health coverage, many more will gain no benefit yet pay more, and what started as a way to provide healthcare to the middle class and the poor has quickly turned into nothing more than a tax on the middle class and government subsidation of immoral insurance companies.

That is what the rest of the world should be laughing at, not some false pretense that Americans do not want socialized medicine.

[InsaneApache]

Also, I forgot to add: Jesus would have completely endorsed socialized medicine. Discuss.

Here in the UK if you go into hospital you've got more than an even chance of meeting him.

National Death Service we call it. Google it and your blood will run cold.

[Beskar]

Here in the UK if you go into hospital you've got more than an even chance of meeting him.
National Death Service we call it. Google it and your blood will run cold.

Clearly there is a mismatch between your experiences and my own when you come out with a statement like that.

The downsides with the NHS is the relation with the private sector, usually with private payments taking a priority over the 'free' (some doctors do out of hours or allow private referrals) and private services such as a bed-side basic TV costing £5-per-day and the waiting times for non-essential operations or having to wait a couple of months for a free hip replacement opposed to paying over $50,000 in the United States and still having to wait a while.

A lot of people take the service for granted, but even then, it is something like 4 out of 6 operations are for the over 65. It clearly takes care of the vulnerable old people.

[InsaneApache]

Clearly there is a mismatch between your experiences and my own when you come out with a statement like that.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/he...l-scandal.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Furness..._investigation

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stafford_Hospital_scandal

Oh and to quote the late Frank Carson..."and there's more!"

It clearly takes care of the vulnerable old people.

Aye they do. Three words.

Liverpool Care Pathway.

[Beskar]

So you cherry pick the odd examples for confirmation bias opposed to the great many Hospitals and services which are active within the country?

It is like saying women are worse drivers than men, cherry picking news articles which involve women drivers, and ignoring the volumes of data which statistically show that male drivers are more likely to be in an accident and receive driving offences.

[InsaneApache]

So you totally ignore the fact that hospitals all over the UK have been killing people through negligence and box ticking.

When I had my heart attack 4 years ago the elderly guy in the next bed would have starved to death if the Polish cleaners hadn't taken the time to feed him. Or perhaps the time a year or so later when my eldest lad was in hospital and his bed frame was caked in faeces. Or perhaps the time last year when the consultant was going to stop my dads meds because he was old and quote, "didn't have much time left".

Wonder of the world eh?

[Beskar]

So you totally ignore the fact that hospitals all over the UK have been killing people through negligence and box ticking.

Did I say there were no such things as bad apples? I was simply remarking that a few incidents out of over 400 hospitals, even then one ward out of a great many (they are ran separately), doesn't mean it is representative for the majority of the NHS.

As for anecdotal evidence, it is different to my own. Outside of superficial things such as lack of activities/overpriced activities and hospital food not being comparable to my home cooking, the treatment was quick, thorough and rather no nonsense and regularly saw cleaners and support staff. Even with my terminally ill brother, he was on 'about a week' and they still continued treatments and he has lived for a further 5 years due to constant and ongoing support. When on the wards, I regularly see support staff assisting patients with feeding, and if they skip (when voluntary) two meals they are automatically placed on a diet and fluid chart to monitor what they have eaten with further steps implemented, if the gentleman was in a situation where he couldn't feed himself, then he would have some one with him to ensure it or placed on supplement bags.

If you are saying about greater transparency and accountability, I have no issues with that. Anything out of line should be reported and dealt with. The incidents you experienced should not have happened and if anything like that starts to happen again, get proof of it, via pictures and other evidence then report it on.

[Husar]

That is what the rest of the world should be laughing at, not some false pretense that Americans do not want socialized medicine.

Wrong. All this happens because Americans have to and want to pander to the companies and their owners because pandering to them makes them benevolent in the sense that they create underpaid minimum wage jobs so Americans can follow the American dream of accumulating debt, not being able to afford food and never working their way up because they could never afford an education.
That is what Americans want and the politicians just implemented that instead of a filthy communist law that would provide fairness in healthcare.

Everybody with a business 101 degree knows that fairness stifles competition, progress and the American Way. Organ donations should really be sold in auctions so that the most productive, richest citizens can buy them and prosper through a competitive process of natural selection as Jesus intended.

[InsaneApache]

Don't get me wrong, I'm totally in favour of subsidised health-care. Just not in the way we do it in the UK. It clearly isn't working as intended.

[Major Robert Dump]

Don't get me wrong, I'm totally in favour of subsidised health-care. Just not in the way we do it in the UK. It clearly isn't working as intended.

I THINK YOU'RE BIG PROBLEM OVER THERE IS THAT INSURANCE COMPANIES ARE NOT INVOLVED. CLEARLY IF THE UK INVOLVED MORE INSURANCE COMPANIES IT WOULD FIX EVERYTHING

[ICantSpellDawg]

I'm willing to give it a shot because it passed congress and the executive and then, on the judgement of SCOTUS, was deemed to not be an unlawful abuse of Federal power under their power to tax.

Do I think that it will work? No. Do I think that out will fail so badly that and prices will skyrocket to such levels that people will be clamoring for single payer? Absolutely - but this was the agenda of the left the entire time. I'm so fed up with the current health system that I really don't care'; we're all going to die one day, but the current system makes my living years angst ridden due to the financial calamity that could befall my family at any time. I don't know if people realize that when you are chronically I'll that your "off" days are different. It is so easy to get fired and just have no insurance when you are sick.

[HoreTore]

I feel like quoting Per Fugelli in response to IA:

"I heard a representative from the Progress Party scream with an offended tone: 'People are dying in our hospitals!' Yes, where else should they die?"

People demand perfection in life, and freedom from pain and hurt. When society can't deliver, they scream and blame everyone.

We as a society needs to face up to the fact that life isn't without pain, and cease the constant demand of a perfect life.

[Kadagar_AV]

I must honestly say, as both a Swede and Austrian, that I really struggle to understand how (some of) the people of the US do NOT want everyone to be able to get treatment.

What's the problem?

If we can afford healthcare for all our citizens, why not provide it?

And if we can not afford it, where does the money go that would be MORE important?

Really, c'mon. Everyone with somewhat of a heart must understand that being able to treat your childs cancer is a good thing. There are no "but", "if" or "when" about it.

Humanitarian reasons aside, nations as a rule benefit from having a healthy - not to mention alive - population.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Some interesting things in this thread.


First: Health care, as with anything else, cannot be free. The cost can be transferred, deferred, shared, or gifted but nothing is ever free. Somewhere, somehow, someone or some group of someones must pay.

Second: Obamacare -- and yes the name is a little silly -- is mostly mandated insurance requirements. As is usual with the US approach to healthcare, it is a booddoggle waiting to happen. Persons who, by current standards of insurance underwriting, have a high morbidity risk will flock to obtain health insurance that will defray the bulk of their expenses.

Since most who are really ill cannot get health coverage at all and are forced to rely on pro bono care under the present system, they would be foolish NOT to avail themselves of Bronze coverage costing them $500 a month with a deductible of 6,350 max. For less than 12.5k per annum, they will receive unlimited health care for their condition. With lifetime costs well into the six-figure range for cancer treatment (1 in 8 women WILL face breast cancer; nearly 1 in 7 men WILL face prostate cancer), persons suffering a debilitating illness would be silly not to procure coverage and minimize their costs.

Ideally, this is offset by large numbers. If large numbers of (usually healthier) younger persons participate, the numbers will work well (that's the classic insurance approach to spreading the risk as a risk management tool). However, for example, the current law has a maximum "not covered" penalty of 2.5% of income. Run the numbers and a 27 year old making 25k in Dallas would (Source: Huffington Post) pay $74 a month for health coverage costing 888/year. The non-payment penalty would be $625/year (even lower for the first two years of the program). Most of the relatively healthy younglings -- the ones least likely to have insurance or give a care anyway -- are going to opt out because it is cheaper.

We will see, I suspect, a prototypical example of adverse selection that completely skews the finances on the whole thing. As many employers will have opted to have employees use the government exchanges rather than absorb the cost of maintaining their own coverage plan, we will rapidly face a situation where the government will have to:

a) increase penalties to draconian levels so as to make health insurance a required personal obligation for all

b) subsidize the continued losses of the program through an increase of the debt and/or an increase in taxation

c) nationalize the health system along the lines of the present Canadian or British health systems


Third, the government will NOT make a quick decision when this new crisis looms because of the usual political shenanigans, thus leaving us with option b), debt increase variant.

Fourth, when the government services bubble bursts, it will make the sub-prime lending bubble look like fart bubble in a bathtub.


Or, I suppose, our politicos might have the courage to act and tackle the problem head on....but I don't plan to hold my breath until that occurs.

[Fragony]

I really don't understand it, I have tried reading articles about the problems and what caused them. A basic summary would be very nice as everybody is saying something else.

[Lemur]

No time to read it (work), but this looks like a halfway decent primer on the subject, Frags.

[Kadagar_AV]

The TLDR would be:

How come USA, claiming to be rich, can NOT afford what other nations, worse off, easily can?
How come USA doesn't WANT a healthy populace?



Seamus>>> That's a whole lot of monetary reasons. I grant that the US has more fatties, but apart from that, you should be able to give USAnians the same healthcare as, say, Austria and Sweden, no?

It's not like breast or prostate cancer is an USAnian invention, now is it?

[Papewaio]

Also, I forgot to add: Jesus would have completely endorsed socialized medicine. Discuss.

He was a confirmed wino who shared his body around even with complete strangers...

[Seamus Fermanagh]

The TLDR would be:

How come USA, claiming to be rich, can NOT afford what other nations, worse off, easily can?
How come USA doesn't WANT a healthy populace?



Seamus>>> That's a whole lot of monetary reasons. I grant that the US has more fatties, but apart from that, you should be able to give USAnians the same healthcare as, say, Austria and Sweden, no?

It's not like breast or prostate cancer is an USAnian invention, now is it?

The USA has always had more of a laissez-faire attitude toward the issue than most.


In addition, we traditionally have not been willing to accept the rate of taxation necessary to fund such a program as the Austrian two-tier. The total tax burden on yanks with the highest income streams is usually less than 50% including federal income taxes, state and local sales and property taxes/fees, and other minor levies. Our capital gains tax is set at 23.8% for our highest earner brackets (and many of our richest have little or no wage income thus qualifying for the 15 capital gains rate).

Many if not most Austrian wage earners pay 41% or 50% income tax rates, you have a value added tax on goods and services of 16% (10% for subsistence-related stuff), and a 25% capital gains with fewer loopholes.

Historically, USA'ers have been unwilling to accept the tax burden shouldered by the typical Austrian...and national health care cannot be paid for without same. TANSTAAFL.


Our health costs are the highest in the world per capita because: 1) our lifestyle as an aggregate is not the healthiest (wealth has its costs too), 2) we have the most cutting edge medical stuff/treatments/etc. in the world and the R&D costs for that are passed to the consumer indirectly, 3) we are viciously litigious and the malpractice costs for physicians are outrageous, again passed to the consumer, and 4) we have the worst of all worlds in terms of our specific combination of fee-for-service, private insurance, government regulation and coverage.

There is no doubt that the current system is far less cost effective than it should be...I am just doubting that the ACA will actually improve upon things.

[Vuk]

I'm sorry, but tell me again why I or any American should give a crap what the rest of the world thinks about how we govern ourselves? Forgetting the fact that the rest of the world is not worth us wiping our butts with, what business is it of theirs?

[Seamus Fermanagh]

I'm sorry, but tell me again why I or any American should give a crap what the rest of the world thinks about how we govern ourselves? Forgetting the fact that the rest of the world is not worth us wiping our butts with, what business is it of theirs?

Didn't your momma ever give you that honey v vinegar lesson?

[Seamus Fermanagh]

He was a confirmed wino who shared his body around even with complete strangers...

Well, he asked to be remembered. Gotta check that block as completed.

[Husar]

I'm sorry, but tell me again why I or any American should give a crap what the rest of the world thinks about how we govern ourselves?

You toppled countless governments during the cold war because you didn't like the way people governed themselves and you do quite a bit of that stuff even today. And now you wonder why people love to give you some of that back during comparatively harmless internet discussions?

Forgetting the fact that the rest of the world is not worth us wiping our butts with, what business is it of theirs?

We all secretly want to migrate to America, and like all migrants we want to make our new home a bit more like the old one in some respects.

[rvg]

You toppled countless governments during the cold war because you didn't like the way people governed themselves and you do quite a bit of that stuff even today. And now you wonder why people love to give you some of that back during comparatively harmless internet discussions?

We toppled them because we could. Nobody's really giving us anything back because nobody can. You can talk all you like about how bad the American social/political/whatever system might be, but it's worth pointing out that your impact upon that aforementioned system equals to zero. A big, fat zero.

Just sayin'.

[Papewaio]

I'm sorry, but tell me again why I or any American should give a crap what the rest of the world thinks about how we govern ourselves? Forgetting the fact that the rest of the world is not worth us wiping our butts with, what business is it of theirs?

Because we don't like bulldust where someone states they are #1 but smell like a #2

[Papewaio]

He was a confirmed wino who shared his body around even with complete strangers...

For those not making the connection:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eucharist