Golden Dawn Showered by Raids

[Papewaio]

http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2013-0...rimina/4987964

The leader of the far-right Golden Dawn Party in Greece has been arrested and charged with belonging to a criminal organisation.

The arrest of Nikolaos Michaloliakos is the most prominent in a series of arrests of the party's MPs since last week.

Greece's anti-terrorist unit said it found weapons, ammunition and thousands of euros in cash at the party leader's home.

Twenty other Golden Dawn members were arrested over the weekend, including five of its members of parliament.

The Supreme Court has rained on the Golden Dawns torch lit parades after investigating them and have found sufficient evidence of acting as an organized crime syndicate to arrest five MPs along with the leader.

Lets hope Golden Dawns charges aren't watered down.

[Fragony]

Hardcore nazi's, I don't think this will stand though. Everybody knows they are scum but it's going to be pretty hard to prove they are a criminal organisation, they are, but they are also a democratically elected party.

[AntiDamascus]

Asian Dawn? No wait, I read about those guys in Time Magazine.

[HopAlongBunny]

Golden showers and Nazi's!?
This can only end badly

[Rhyfelwyr]

So, a forceful political crackdown on the ugly face of popular disillusionment, but absolutely no measures to tackle the huge variety of social injustices that both fostered it and were voiced through it in the first place.

Good job.

Imagine, you lose your livelihood, your home, heck your whole life... and now have your political representation taken away from you...

What is the typical working-class, downtrodden, political ignorant Golden Dawn supporter going to think of democracy now?

[Fragony]

So, a forceful political crackdown on the ugly face of popular disillusionment, but absolutely no measures to tackle the huge variety of social injustices that both fostered it and were voiced through it in the first place.

Good job.

Imagine, you lose your livelihood, your home, heck your whole life... and now have your political representation taken away from you...

What is the typical working-class, downtrodden, political ignorant Golden Dawn supporter going to think of democracy now?

It's hard to as politically ignorant to not know who these guys are, can't be compared to the BNP or the likes. They attack immigrants, destroy their marketplaces, patrol the streets. They are pretty damn hardcore. But it certainly is a dillema. Finding weapons somewhere doesn't mean it's a criminal organisation, and the behaviour of their supporters doesn' either. Really tough one I would love to have these guys behind bars as I detest their kind but the one doing that would probably have to cheat.

[Husar]

It's hard to imagine nazi supporters as having a high opinion of democracy in the first place.

There are other parties that support downtrodden workers, you don't have to beat up immigrants to support the working class.

[Fragony]

It's hard to imagine nazi supporters as having a high opinion of democracy in the first place.

There are other parties that support downtrodden workers, you don't have to beat up immigrants to support the working class.

They are absolute scumbags, but I don't know where the canary in the coalmine is when it comes to democracy, if you would have to draw a line would you be confident of where to put it

[Seamus Fermanagh]

I will admit that a quick scan of the thread title had me thinking it was the title of some kind of "adult" film effort. Fortunately, I was mistaken.


Ryf':

You are, so far, the closest thing to an apologist for these blokes in the thread (though I think you're arguing that the issues that fostered such a fascist party are still un-addressed, not arguing for fascism).

So, what are those social injustices? I had heard that Greece was facing tough times as they clawed their way from under the debt rock, but you are suggesting something more, no?

[drone]

Why would you start a Golden Dawn revival in an Orthodox country?

[Rhyfelwyr]

Ryf':

You are, so far, the closest thing to an apologist for these blokes in the thread (though I think you're arguing that the issues that fostered such a fascist party are still un-addressed, not arguing for fascism).

So, what are those social injustices? I had heard that Greece was facing tough times as they clawed their way from under the debt rock, but you are suggesting something more, no?

I never defend far-right views, I do however defend the average far-right supporter. I think sometimes in the past people have missed this distinction when I have made certain posts, though I always try to make it clear.

The social injustices many Greeks face are the same as those faced by many throughout the developed world. However, the situation in Greece is of course particularly bad, and it does have a few unique features. For example, the animosity with the conditions being imposed upon it by the EU - something the nationalism and isolationism of the likes of Golden Dawn obviously taps into. Equally, there is the reality that much of the financial situation in Greece can be attributed to the tax-dodging of the middle and upper classes - the same classes who support the mainstream parties that are now banning Golden Dawn in a flurry of righteous indignation; while the average working-class Golden Dawn supporter was never responsible for the crisis, yet suffers the most from its effects. And these same people that cannot get jobs must watch as immigrants fill up what work remains, and are allowed to do so by the lobbying of corporations who want their cheap labour, and form a rather bizarre alliance with left-wing groups in shooting down any questioning of immigration with a burst of (often faux) moral outrage.

And that is merely the particulars that are unique to Greece - the Greek working class/lower class/underclass/whatever suffer from the same ills they do in the rest of Europe - which is a crap life with no prospects, and complete alienation from economic, political, and (something often underappreciated by many) social life.

As I said, I believe fascism is not the right answer to these problems, but unfortunately for a poorly educated, politically isolated and desperate bunch of people, it seems to be the best answer they can come up with. Isolationism is not the answer to the EU/sovereignty issue. Racism is not the answer to immigration issues. Ultra-nationalism is not the answer to a national unity fractured by inequality. But the sad reality is that these do all provide an outlet for their frustrations, hence why fascism is so often a reaction to poverty in the developed world.

That is my position on the matter.

[gaelic cowboy]

I will admit that a quick scan of the thread title had me thinking it was the title of some kind of "adult" film effort. Fortunately, I was mistaken.


Ryf':

You are, so far, the closest thing to an apologist for these blokes in the thread (though I think you're arguing that the issues that fostered such a fascist party are still un-addressed, not arguing for fascism).

So, what are those social injustices? I had heard that Greece was facing tough times as they clawed their way from under the debt rock, but you are suggesting something more, no?

Apparently costly drugs are very scarce in Greece, I bet potential death makes for strange political bedfellows.

[Papewaio]

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

If the Golden Dawn party is doing criminal activities then they must be prosecuted or the government ends up legitimizing the activities of GD.

The other side of the equation is addressing the root causes of the situation. Greece has to take an honest look at all levels of society and make sure that they all are paying their fair share. Greece is fairly infamous rightly or wrongly in operating a large amount of black markets and paying very little tax yet expecting government to pick up the tab at much higher levels then comparable tax bases. It is unsustainable, but the austerity solutions have already been show to be based on a faulty interpretation of data so that isn't the way out either.

So make surre basic welfare is achieved ie warmth, shelter food that is good enough to sustain life. Then start reforming both the processes and the people around long term sustainable life styles. If they want more social securities then they need to improve efficiencies and their tax base.

[Andres]

Nazis don't come out of thin air. Organized Nazis with widespread support of any kind speaks to deep, deep issues in Greece. By the time Nazis enter a political arena, a large portion of the population has to be unhappy and ready to get evil to "fix" things.

Many of them will see their party as even more legitimate now that they are being "bullied" by the establishment. Bad situation and bad political handling. Glad I'm not greek.

Indeed.

It's easy to wave your finger at the evil nazis, it's far more complicated to run your country in a way that the general population isn't kicked into misery and becomes receptive for the ideas of scum like Golden Dawn.

Rhyfelwyr is right. It's easy to judge people while sitting well fed and well educated in your comfortable chair sipping coffee.

[Andres]

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

If the Golden Dawn party is doing criminal activities then they must be prosecuted or the government ends up legitimizing the activities of GD.

The other side of the equation is addressing the root causes of the situation. Greece has to take an honest look at all levels of society and make sure that they all are paying their fair share. Greece is fairly infamous rightly or wrongly in operating a large amount of black markets and paying very little tax yet expecting government to pick up the tab at much higher levels then comparable tax bases. It is unsustainable, but the austerity solutions have already been show to be based on a faulty interpretation of data so that isn't the way out either.

So make surre basic welfare is achieved ie warmth, shelter food that is good enough to sustain life. Then start reforming both the processes and the people around long term sustainable life styles. If they want more social securities then they need to improve efficiencies and their tax base.

They could start with ending tax benefits for their rich ship owners and perhaps prevent them from transferring their very favourable taxed wealth abroad.

And maybe they should also show their middlefinger to the troika which is now forcing them to sell their state owned assets at dumping prices to sharks.

Last thing I heard, is that universities are now forced to close their doors this year.

And then people act surprised when the monster of extreme right rises again in Europe.

Wait and see. 68 years of peace in Europe is no guarantee for another few decades of peace. Those from reality detached troika idiots are playing with fire.

[ICantSpellDawg]

Golden Dawn are actual violent fascists. Hammer them into the ground. Even 7% is way too many to have in government.

[Fragony]

Nazis don't come out of thin air. Organized Nazis with widespread support of any kind speaks to deep, deep issues in Greece. By the time Nazis enter a political arena, a large portion of the population has to be unhappy and ready to get evil to "fix" things.

Many of them will see their party as even more legitimate now that they are being "bullied" by the establishment. Bad situation and bad political handling. Glad I'm not greek.

I have little interest in excusing them in anything really. They aren't even pretending to be something they are not.

[Empire*Of*Media]

why u always match the white neo-Nazi racists and super racists of eastern europe to normal Nazis?!
Nazis in Greece and Thailand only want independence and cut dependence from Imperialists !

[Papewaio]

why u always match the white neo-Nazi racists and super racists of eastern europe to normal Nazis?!
Nazis in Greece and Thailand only want independence and cut dependence from Imperialists !

I will go out on a limb here why people see them as wannabe Nazis. It might be their white greek meanser styled like a nazi like swatizka, anti-Semitic output, black uniforms and beating up and murdering of ethnically different people than themselves at a guess.

Of it could be their MPs wearing iron cross jewelry, having tattoos of Sieg Heil or their official magazine having articles stating "We are the faithful soldiers of the National Socialist idea and nothing else" and "[...] WE EXIST, and continue the battle, the battle for the final victory of our race".

IMDHO It kind of hints that they are wannabe Nazis.

[Fragony]

They aren't wannabees they are nazi's.

[Empire*Of*Media]

I will go out on a limb here why people see them as wannabe Nazis. It might be their white greek meanser styled like a nazi like swatizka, anti-Semitic output, black uniforms and beating up and murdering of ethnically different people than themselves at a guess.

Of it could be their MPs wearing iron cross jewelry, having tattoos of Sieg Heil or their official magazine having articles stating "We are the faithful soldiers of the National Socialist idea and nothing else" and "[...] WE EXIST, and continue the battle, the battle for the final victory of our race".

IMDHO It kind of hints that they are wannabe Nazis.

first consider why in GREECE Without any Nationalism & Nazism Basis, is growing and why not in German that has been controlled strictly by USA & EU?! why in a country without any Aryan & German Race?! dont u think they want to be Free and be in better situation and break their dependence and be independence?!
anyway....
i didnt say they dont want to be Nazi or dont have all of the Nazi Specifications, i meant they are not matched with The White Neo-Nazis (those terrorists that believe White race as greater Race!!) ! anyway u see Nazism as Devil i dont want to talk about that (Has much great long discussion!) but your prejudice of Anti Nationalism that u r told to think like that, just shows how much your narrow minded and one minded!! the SWATSKA that u fear & hate when u see it (again are told u to be like this by controlled media) has not came from HITLER!! itler wanted only to resurrect that symbol!

The Symbol called Swastika has Aryan Iranian & Aryan Hindian Roots and and continued & went across until the Danube River Where the GOTHS were stationed before their Kingdoms in Italy & Spain and thats why Many Aryan-German Raced people are in France - Germany - Austria - Finland - Sweden! and that was why why that symbol got roots in Germania (germany & Austria - to Sweden & Finland)
your Hatred and Fear is only what THEY told u to think like what they please !
plz be more Logical & dispassionate & unprejudiced! (not u i mean All the people in Modern Countries with Huge Media Control over them!)

[Papewaio]

Mate I had relatives who fought and died in WWII. I also have relatives who are Buddhists so I've seen plenty of swatiskas. That's why I called them the nazi swatiska and the nazi iron cross not to be confused with other belief systems such as Buddhism or Christian crosses.

I don't fear Nazis, I loathe and pity them. I am disgusted with people who think it is alright to bully others based on their ethnic group or place of birth. I also know WWII well enough to distinguish between Nazi Germany, Vichy France and Fascist Italy. I am in no doubt of what evils were perpetuated by them.


I don't follow you when you call Greeks non-white. Sure they have tanned skin, but they are the crucible from which a lot of western civilisation sprang. They are very much Europeans. Which until relatively recently one would consider equivalent with white.

[Empire*Of*Media]

Mate I had relatives who fought and died in WWII. I also have relatives who are Buddhists so I've seen plenty of swatiskas. That's why I called them the nazi swatiska and the nazi iron cross not to be confused with other belief systems such as Buddhism or Christian crosses.

I don't fear Nazis, I loathe and pity them. I am disgusted with people who think it is alright to bully others based on their ethnic group or place of birth. I also know WWII well enough to distinguish between Nazi Germany, Vichy France and Fascist Italy. I am in no doubt of what evils were perpetuated by them.


I don't follow you when you call Greeks non-white. Sure they have tanned skin, but they are the crucible from which a lot of western civilisation sprang. They are very much Europeans. Which until relatively recently one would consider equivalent with white.

well friend! i told u Axis were not 100 % Devil!
its just World Zionism & Usa Propaganda! but i will not deny their horrible works! u know its war! men dont kiss each other in war!
but i hope ur negative sense toward Nazis be like toward Imperialists that colonized the world for 300 years and still on, inviting people to kill each other and send them guns! dividing & spliting ethnics & peoples to rise tension so money be transfered to their account well and the region be like what they like! creating Dictators so they get much benefits from every aspects and are relax about that regions too! and..many things i just titled it not example!
u know u hate 1 side because THEY show and create so called truths, but u even dont think that hey, maybe your wrong too!!
i hope u know what im meaning!

(And that symbol is not only for buddhists but Ancient Iran & Mesopotamia (Kurdistan)- it was from Zoroastrianism (the 4 origin elements of World - Water-Fire-Soil,this is not in buddhism-Wind) that went to Buddhism that symbol came much older than buddhism)

sorry for bad english

Chao!

[Fragony]

Mate I had relatives who fought and died in WWII. I also have relatives who are Buddhists so I've seen plenty of swatiskas

That's odd, swastikas aren't a budhist symbol but a hindu one

[PanzerJaeger]

It's easy to judge anti-immigrant sentiments when you haven't lived with them. These people are watching their neighborhoods, and many times their ancestral homes going back generations, be essentially turned into crime ridden housing blocks for a population that could care less about Greece or its culture and customs, and is instead only interested in chasing benefits through Europe.

There is a certain idealized notion of the immigrant that is strongly reinforced in contemporary Western thought, but spend a bit of time in these areas and it becomes clear that these people, especially those flocking to Europe, bring the same disfunction, petty rivalries, and violence that has kept their respective homelands in the third world. I don't blame the average working class Grecian for observing the crumbling world around him and concluding that his reality is not being understood or addressed by the current major parties.

As for Golden Dawn's alleged violence, one must also consider the violence perpetrated against them by immigrants and their Marxist allies - it certainly goes both ways. These people are fighting a vicious street war for their families and their homes and now face a crackdown by a government that no longer represents them. It would not surprise me if they become more violent, and I would not blame them.

[Brenus]

The “alleged” violence by member of the Greek Racist Party is to have killed a lefty. Resurrecting the Sturm Brigades, they are using the same methods. So they’ve got the same result. The F.N. henchman in France killed as well, an anti-fascist lefty. The problem with the lefties is they come without weapon, so they are just meat for these criminals.

The problem of emigration is a problem that has to be resolve within the parliament and laws.

“i told u Axis were not 100 % Devil!”! Err, what was the good part? They ONLY killed homosexuals, handicaps, Communists, Socialists, Roms, Jews and Slavs? Enslaved entire population, starved to death what left, burning just for the fun villages with people in it. And of course, the most beautiful Photos Concurs (winner was the picture of a SS killing the mother AND her Child with one bullet: The price was attributed on the moment before death, the expression of the victim(s)). Oh, wait, they built motorways…

And yes, my discuss goes as well to the Colonisations and the Bloody Columns, and the slaughters and the slavery… But, I don’t believe you when you are saying “i will not deny their horrible works”, because you are saying “its just World Zionism & Usa Propaganda”. It is not propaganda, my friend, this is unfortunately the horrible truth.

[Pannonian]

“i told u Axis were not 100 % Devil!”! Err, what was the good part? They ONLY killed homosexuals, handicaps, Communists, Socialists, Roms, Jews and Slavs? Enslaved entire population, starved to death what left, burning just for the fun villages with people in it. And of course, the most beautiful Photos Concurs (winner was the picture of a SS killing the mother AND her Child with one bullet: The price was attributed on the moment before death, the expression of the victim(s)). Oh, wait, they built motorways…

And yes, my discuss goes as well to the Colonisations and the Bloody Columns, and the slaughters and the slavery… But, I don’t believe you when you are saying “i will not deny their horrible works”, because you are saying “its just World Zionism & Usa Propaganda”. It is not propaganda, my friend, this is unfortunately the horrible truth.

This Japanese guy on TWC was protesting against alleged discrimination against Japanese people such as the demonisation of imperial Japan, and pointed to the British as fellow bad guys who oppressed the Irish, Indians, Asians, etc. The discussion ended up with a load of Irish, Indian, Asian, etc. guys talking about how their relatives joined up to fight against the Axis, and how said relatives loathed the Japanese but liked the British.

[Papewaio]

That's odd, swastikas aren't a budhist symbol but a hindu one

The symbol predates most religion and is widely used. If you want to eat at a vegetarian restaurant in a Buddhist country look for the swastikas.

Landing for the first time in Taiwan, tired, jet lagged and staring through early morning mists seeing row upon row of swatiska covering temples and restaurants. My mind went WTF? As my exposure was WWII history and people saying it was recovering an old symbol no longer in use. Well that symbol never went out of use in the east and is very common.

FYI if you like soy products made to look and taste like meat ones follow the swatiskas.

[Empire*Of*Media]

“i told u Axis were not 100 % Devil!”! Err, what was the good part? They ONLY killed homosexuals, handicaps, Communists, Socialists, Roms, Jews and Slavs? Enslaved entire population, starved to death what left, burning just for the fun villages with people in it. And of course, the most beautiful Photos Concurs (winner was the picture of a SS killing the mother AND her Child with one bullet: The price was attributed on the moment before death, the expression of the victim(s)). Oh, wait, they built motorways…

And yes, my discuss goes as well to the Colonisations and the Bloody Columns, and the slaughters and the slavery… But, I don’t believe you when you are saying “i will not deny their horrible works”, because you are saying “its just World Zionism & Usa Propaganda”. It is not propaganda, my friend, this is unfortunately the horrible truth.

Hello Friend! Good Day/or Night to u!
if u look i said 100% we have even 99% too!LoL! i didnt say they were saint!!! well as My Nation suffered genocide thousand times more than Jews, i hate even the word! so i have a common sense toward them too because hey, im human apart my nationality &race!

but i dont want to believe as the 1% wants us to believe!
i told before, i dont want to deny holocaust i dont want to hate jews or anything u want that to incriminate to me!
i have many relatives in Israel!
but i only want to holocaust be freely reconsidered! i know if a Zionism or Zionism Controlled see that word RECONSIDERED will ban me or attack me, but many things that u call it HORRIBLE TRUTH, i say ok it maybe be truth but have u seen it?! have u researched it without any media influenced or ignorancy or anything one & narrow minded?! NO!
we shouldnt stick to the details, but u say burning the villages! but i say it was not what u r told to see then believe! because the villages that they set to fire supported many many rebels and the rebels were there but before the army's arrival they fled! first if they were freedom fighter they should have remained and defend or just shouldnt went there! and u know, its war! they wanted to somehow defend themselves, well, they couldnt remain silent against their enemy! and in this events, horrible things will occur unfortunately! im not making someone good or evil im just saying as before i said, its war not Heaven! war from every aspect u look at it its wrong and worse! even if lead by the messiah!
u just see & believe what THEY make u to believe! u only see documentaries & Videos of the VICTOR not the beaten!

i dont go to the details much, because its useless we only should discuss about titles because thats the real problem! or we should discuss 3000 pages!

just add this that U think these things happened because u r told to believe this by mass producing Documentaries & Movies and creating so called truths!! in these period time of the world people only see Electronic Media, so u know, controlling and enjecting their goal to us is very easy!
if REALLY holocaust has happened, so why should those that only want the happening be reconsidered (NOT DENIAL COMPLETELY) will be Imprisoned, Banned, beaten, Penalize &.... them like Robert Faurisson, or even concentration camps survivor Paul Rassinier?!!
(the trial of Nurenburg was fun!! they trialed a general for crimes against humanity, and their proof was 2 witness that ONLY claimed that they made soap from the jewish bodies!!!!!-while what r told, but we suppose, how some people believe jews are impure dirty and low-level, will create jewish soap for cleaning?!!!!)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_denial

why not speak & discuss about this like what they claim in a FREE & DEMOCRATIC world?! so dont u think they are afraid of their Great deception?! because discussing will bring doubts and researching more!!....so their deception will be uncovered & revealed!!
why the world doesnt focus on Armenian Genocid or Kurdish Genocide or Bulgarian genocide or German Genocide & .... why the so called genocide must be focused on a peoples that have much 80% of world economy & Money?!
.
.
.
.
i dont like someone only seek benefits!! why u only Bolded a little of my text while u even didnt mention the truths about Imperialism?! (that time were called Allies!)
why u didnt say anything about titles like:
but i hope ur negative sense toward Nazis be like toward Imperialists that colonized the world for 300 years and still on, inviting people to kill each other and Sell/send them guns! dividing & spliting ethnics & peoples to rise tension and create & engineering so called Revolutions so money be transfered to their account well and the region be like what they like and their power be greater! creating Dictators so they get much benefits from every aspects and are relax about that regions too! and..many things i just titled it not example!

not mentioning these archly by yours, isnt the meaning u only want to impose your believes or what u r told to believe?!
as i told, these things were/are only titles!! god knows how much other unknown/hidden disasters and misadventures they inflicted upon poor nations & peoples! they are only hidden thats the matter! the crimes of Nazis are shown/known even exaggerated but Imperialists (when i say this i mean they all are one in one hand!) crimes will be covered & hidden from media & world!! and u know, they got this lesson when they were flagrantly withdraw from INDIA & VIETNAM & Laos & Kambodia & ....
thats why they didnt continued this kind of Colonizing & New World Ordering!!

the mind & thought controlled people criticize Nazism and their crimes, but remain silent and apathetic about Hiroshima & Nagazaki !! or even the force migration of 13 million Germans after WWII and more crimes against Germans because they were only called GERMANS!!! (Does anybody know about this?!?! NO!!)
the mind & thought controlled people criticize Hitler and his cruelty, but dont even know and dont want to know about the engineering civil wars & Coups & revolutions & Dictators that brought Middle East - East - Africa - South and Latin America by WINSTON CHURCHILL & Roosevelt Families & Eisenhower Families and such, that brought disasters and misadventures and crisis to those regions!!

not going much, i think its enough for someone understandable - reasonable - unprejudiced and independent thoughts Human!

just 1 last thing >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The History (and so called Truth!!) is WRITTEN BY THE VICTOR !!

[Papewaio]

It's easy to judge anti-immigrant sentiments when you haven't lived with them. These people are watching their neighborhoods, and many times their ancestral homes going back generations, be essentially turned into crime ridden housing blocks for a population that could care less about Greece or its culture and customs, and is instead only interested in chasing benefits through Europe.

There is a certain idealized notion of the immigrant that is strongly reinforced in contemporary Western thought, but spend a bit of time in these areas and it becomes clear that these people, especially those flocking to Europe, bring the same disfunction, petty rivalries, and violence that has kept their respective homelands in the third world. I don't blame the average working class Grecian for observing the crumbling world around him and concluding that his reality is not being understood or addressed by the current major parties.

As for Golden Dawn's alleged violence, one must also consider the violence perpetrated against them by immigrants and their Marxist allies - it certainly goes both ways. These people are fighting a vicious street war for their families and their homes and now face a crackdown by a government that no longer represents them. It would not surprise me if they become more violent, and I would not blame them.

Except my personel experience is as an immigrant and living in Syndey where 40% of the population is born overseas. A city constantly in the top ten most liveable cities in the world.

I have lived in Parramatta since 2000. I'm a Westie.

Parramatta has over 50% born overseas.