What do you think the Monastary should be?

[AntiDamascus]

I had this thought when Sarmatian made this thread asking what to do with this forum.

Now I am a new guy here so take it as whatever you want but I had a question when this was raised. What exactly should the Monastery be? Should it be a debate forum? Should it be a repository to drop off information to be picked up by others for their own enjoyment or perhaps campaign.

Forums die when they have no purpose or they have a purpose no one wants. I have a few thoughts and ideas but in the spirit of what I just said, I will let others speak first. There is no point in rolling out any new thoughts I have if no one reads this or really cares much.

I do hope to hear from several people soon though.

[Tuuvi]

Personally I think it should be both. I love reading historical debates and discussions, and this forum could really use more of those. However I wouldn't want to see people discouraged from making more informational-type posts.

[Andres]

Information is good, but debates are what makes it interesting.

The best of both worlds are, of course, debates with much information in which the posters link to relevant sources (or refer to (a) book(s), if their sources aren't online) to back up their arguments and viewpoints.

Best way to get an interesting debate is to put a bold statement in your thread title and then back it up with sources in the OP or show how and why you draw a certain conclusion out of the available data.

I also like debates/threads in which history meets other fields, like sociology, philosophy, economics etc.

You certainly shouldn't feel held back if you think you have interesting things to discuss. The forum may very well be calm, but if nobody posts because of that, it'll stay calm forever

[caravel]

In my opinion it should be the historical version of the backroom...

I've never posted in here (AKAIK), but in the past I've read some very interesting discussions (which I'm not anywhere near clued up enough to participate in). Sadly all that seems to have dried up.

While I'm sure that posts containing lots of links and info are very useful for some, they probably won't stimulate any life in this forum. That's not to say they're bad - they're certainly not the cause of why this forum is quiet and probably only stand out because there's nothing much going on...

[Montmorency]

Why has Druzhina lately started posting new threads for each new chunk of links? What was wrong with the Historical Resources Thread?

And they certainly clutter the place up, all these new threads. I don't look past the first page very often, but...

[AntiDamascus]

Thank you all for your replies. :)

My thoughts on the debate aspect are actually somewhat against it. A lot of the issues worth debating or even debatable are in my opinion better suited to the backroom. I hate the Backroom as it is now, the discussions there are somewhat..... suspect in tone. The one on the mall attack is a good example. I would think these more academic arguments would help settle bring a sense of actual debate to the backroom without being what it is now. I won't go into it more.

My main concern is there really won't be a whole lot to debate really. Discuss? Yes indeed. Debate? Not so much.

I would like to put up some fun things in this forum. It can be informational but also interesting and talkative. Some examples: a "what did you learn recently" thread where people mention new ideas or facts they learned about. A place where people can talk about papers or research stuff they are doing. Threads where people can complain about "documentaries" they saw on TV or ones they really liked.

These are just things off the top of my head I thought of when I saw this topic come up. I am sure there are more.

[caravel]

Thank you all for your replies. :)

My thoughts on the debate aspect are actually somewhat against it. A lot of the issues worth debating or even debatable are in my opinion better suited to the backroom.

Well if the Monastery is not for discussions/debates about history, then what is it for? People posting articles and not inviting any kind of debate on said articles is the recipe for stagnation.

I hate the Backroom as it is now, the discussions there are somewhat..... suspect in tone. The one on the mall attack is a good example. I would think these more academic arguments would help settle bring a sense of actual debate to the backroom without being what it is now. I won't go into it more.

I'm not a huge fan of the backroom, but respect their right to have it as it is - you certainly won't agree with everyone in the backroom, but that doesn't mean that the .org does either. A few years ago the backroom had about 4 or 5 moderators and took up far too much staff time and resources - when you consider it's main purpose, that's not really acceptable. Things seem to have moved on since then, though I'm not really around here enough to see if it's improved or gotten worse or whatever... The regulars like it and many of them have been around a long time (it's just a nice place for the .org to throw all the ranting Tea Party loons and "leftist apologists", shout "FIGHT!" and then sit back and watch the fun... ). I can't see the Monastery being as confrontational as the backroom can be, but it's up to the staff to set the tone.

My main concern is there really won't be a whole lot to debate really. Discuss? Yes indeed. Debate? Not so much.

Thin line between those two...

What the Monastery really needs is people posting threads that provoke discussion and debate. Members just posting information doesn't really do that...

It's threads like those which debate the importance and influence of certain cultures, methods, weapons, tools, styles of writing, types of government, etc throughout history which will bring the forum to life. Just posting links and information is pretty much inviting nothing more than "oh that's nice"...

[Andres]

Why has Druzhina lately started posting new threads for each new chunk of links? What was wrong with the Historical Resources Thread?

And they certainly clutter the place up, all these new threads. I don't look past the first page very often, but...

I've been thinking about that, but I believe the problem with Adrian's thread is that it fell victim to its' own succes. There's a ton of links in that thread and it's not always easy to find stuff in it.

However, perhaps we should dissect it. I'm not a fan of creating subfora in a forum that hasn't much activity, but maybe in the Monastery, a "Resources" subforum, with threads for each period in history in which you put links, could be nice.

It would be a lot of work to transfer all that we have already into that subforum and in the right threads, but once it's over, it should provide a nice and easy to use online library. We would of course need a "librarian" to keep track of all the new links that are provided (and to do the initial hard work of grouping what we already have). I'd say have a thread for "new" links and only the "librarian" decides where the new link gets placed. We'll also need to decide on the categories; periods of history seems like the most obvious way to categorize; we can make sub-categories if there's really a lot of info on one specific topic.

That way, we have a distinction/separation between a) information; b) debates. To avoid things cluttering up, we could also integrate the IH subforum back into the monastery (have the games played in stickied threads or so).

However, there would be a lot of work involved in accomplishing this and it's more of an organisational thing then a generate activity thing (though more activity could be a side-effect).

Would there somebody be interested in working on that?

@Sarmatian ; your WT thread kinda sparked this discussion; could you give us your input (not just on the debates/info split thing, but on the Monastery as a whole)? I think 2 dedicated people should be able to get the ball rolling. There's no guarantee for succes, but as you said in the WT, the least that can be done, is trying.

[edyzmedieval]

I hink the Monastery should be for debates - like caravel said, it hould be a historic version of the backroom where we discuss important events and details of the past. Having a separate Resources subfora would perhaps help, since Druzhina is kindly posting a lot of resources and the thread that we have contains a wealth of information that people can access and visualise.

Adding the separate subfora might work, perhaps we can try it out and see how it works.

But the idea of debates stands. Back in 2005-2006-2007, the Monastery was filled with historical debates and we had some really wonderful threads full of great information. That's what the aim of the Monastery should be.

[druzhina]

Why has Druzhina lately started posting new threads for each new chunk of links? What was wrong with the Historical Resources Thread?

And they certainly clutter the place up, all these new threads. I don't look past the first page very often, but...

I've been thinking about that, but I believe the problem with Adrian's thread is that it fell victim to its' own succes. There's a ton of links in that thread and it's not always easy to find stuff in it.

Yes, it is easier to search for a thread title if you are looking for something.
If browsing you don't even have to open a post if the title doesn't interest you.

Druzhina
Illustrations of Costume & Soldiers

[Montmorency]

I nominate Druzhina and myself to organize and curate a Resources subsection.

[AntiDamascus]

I wouldn't mind helping out organizing and tagging stuff to clean up. But I'm obviously still very new.

[Andres]

I wouldn't mind helping out organizing and tagging stuff to clean up. But I'm obviously still very new.

Some of us joined in July 2006 and are still demoted to Forum Administrator, which is lower than "banned"

Join date isn't important.

[AntiDamascus]

Well more along the lines of I could be a total nutcase and it just hasn't manifest yet but this is off topic!

I like the talk here. My history degree draws me to places like this and I was saddened to see it quiet and excited to see it brought up in WT (How do you do the @ to someone? I wanted to tag people for this but I couldn't)

[Andres]

Just @ followed by the exact username, without spaces.

So, not @ AntiDamascus
but @AntiDamascus

[Beskar]

[Sarmatian]

@Sarmatian ; your WT thread kinda sparked this discussion; could you give us your input (not just on the debates/info split thing, but on the Monastery as a whole)? I think 2 dedicated people should be able to get the ball rolling. There's no guarantee for succes, but as you said in the WT, the least that can be done, is trying.

In my humble opinion, Monastery should be a place for discussions and debates, first and foremost. That doesn't mean it should be used exclusively for that. I've enjoyed reading different articles, watching pictures, even history quiz for a time, but that all should be secondary.

After that, we mustn't forget that this is a forum dedicated to Total War games, so pictures the kind druzhina is posting are not out of place and could be useful for someone, especially modders. On the other hand, spamming them without proper context leaves them useful only to modders and a very small percentage of them. In light of that, I do believe there should be a separate room within the monastery for those. Unfortunately, we come to the next problem - do we need a separate room in the part of the forum that doesn't see pretty much any activity?

I'd propose the following - I've already shared my ideas in the WT thread about the Monastery. I do plan to put it into action but I haven't had the time. I'll try to do it next week. So, in the next month or two we will see if it will revitalize the Monastery. If it does, we may talk about a sub-forum for online resources and pictures. If it doesn't, it means our current members simply aren't interested in a more scholarly discussion of history enough and we can leave it as is and let nature take its course.

[Secura]

I think that there's merit to both types of posts, but the focus should remain on historical debate with the images as a supplementary tool to augment discussion, rather than replace it.

At this point, we're extremely receptive to ideas that'll generate more traffic here and will devote whatever resources we can muster to help. A good start is the sub-fora for the online resources and pictures, we can implement this immediately if you wish. Just let us know.

[druzhina]

... After that, we mustn't forget that this is a forum dedicated to Total War games, so pictures the kind druzhina is posting are not out of place and could be useful for someone, especially modders. On the other hand, spamming them without proper context leaves them useful only to modders and a very small percentage of them.

This could be said of any of the entries in the Online History Resources Thread. What kind of context would you like? When, what, where and who are usually covered. If you want 'why' you can ask. You can ask any other question or dispute anything. If you have some more information or opinion you can contribute. If you are not interested in the scholarly discussion of illustrations of history leave it as is and let nature take its course.

Druzhina
Illustrations of Costume and Soldiers

[AntiDamascus]

I don't know if I would have issues personally with discussing a subject in what seems to be an informational journal like post. It would almost seem like you're muddying a thread with discussion when that thread could be somewhere else and left to sprawl while the information posted originally could be cited and linked to from somewhere else on the forum.

That is, of course, just my opinion.

[HopAlongBunny]

Take Montmorency and druzhina up on a re-organization of a resources section.
Give the triumvirate of AntiDamascus and the resources curators the responsibility of starting/researching/overseeing discussion in the forum.
The discussion job seems the most difficult; the potential topics are limitless but maintaining the curiosity "hook" can be daunting.
Godspeed and Good Luck!

[druzhina]

I don't know if I would have issues personally with discussing a subject in what seems to be an informational journal like post. It would almost seem like you're muddying a thread with discussion when that thread could be somewhere else and left to sprawl while the information posted originally could be cited and linked to from somewhere else on the forum.

That is, of course, just my opinion.

You are invited to do so. 'Historical' information is always open to discussion as it can never be 100% settled. Additional relevant information can be added with the usual risk of being disagreed with.

Druzhina
Illustrations of Costume & Soldiers

P.S. I have added some replies from another forum to a thread about Illustrations of European slingers and staff slingers 11th-13th-centuries