Read up, guys.
Re: Gal Giap, aged 102, is dead
Read up, guys.
Vitiate Man.
History repeats the old conceits
The glib replies, the same defeats
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Re: Gal Giap, aged 102, is dead
Originally Posted by Montmorency
Yes, do read up.
Re: Gal Giap, aged 102, is dead
Yes, read the article you linked and then tell me how much of that was 'legal' or 'democratic'.
Re: Gal Giap, aged 102, is dead
Hitler's appointment to the Chancellorship, while technically legal, was clearly in no way democratic.Yes, read the article you linked and then tell me how much of that was 'legal' or 'democratic'.
If you think what Hitler did after January 1933 counts as legal, well, I'm afraid I can't help you.
Vitiate Man.
History repeats the old conceits
The glib replies, the same defeats
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Re: Gal Giap, aged 102, is dead
it depends whether you view a largely bloodless coup as a "legal" change of government or not. Mostly this comes under the old saw about treason never prospering.....
"The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman
"The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." -- H. L. Mencken
Re: Gal Giap, aged 102, is dead
Vitiate Man.
History repeats the old conceits
The glib replies, the same defeats
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Re: Gal Giap, aged 102, is dead
He was democraticslly ellected, that's a fact. That he killed it afterwards is something else.
Re: Gal Giap, aged 102, is dead
To those who believe that Hitler was "democratically elected":
1. Why do you believe that "Chancellor" was an elected office?
2. Why do you believe that the backroom dealings of German politicians of the era constitute a manifestation of the will of the people?
3. Why do you believe that the NSDAP achieved a majority win in one or more elections prior to Hitler's assumption of dictatorial power?
4. Why do you believe that the Reichstag fire was not a Nazi plot?
5. Why do you believe that it was "democratic" or "legal" for party paramilitaries to engage in political violence against the opposition?
6. Why do you believe that preventing all opposition politicians from participating in legislative proceedings counted as "democratic" or "legal"?
Sheesh...
Vitiate Man.
History repeats the old conceits
The glib replies, the same defeats
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Re: Gal Giap, aged 102, is dead
HUURR DURR I READ IT ON AN INTERNET SITE THAT SPECIAZES IN DEBUNKING
There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford
My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.
I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.
Re: Gal Giap, aged 102, is dead
Hitler was elected with the democratic rules of the time.
You can ***** and moan about it, but it wont change the facts. He also made no secret of wanting supreme power, so it's not like people didn't know what they voted for.
You can of course play the old "true Scotsman" fallacy, but you are smarter than that, no? It's like saying Bush II wasnt' really re-elected democratically as the majority didn't vote for him, and his own family controlled the outcome... Or you can just say he was elected and move on
Re: Gal Giap, aged 102, is dead
Some quick google double checking notes:
Hitler was defeated in the only election for which he stood for office. Both rounds of presidential voting went to Hindenburg. Hitler's strong second place finish -- probably with a better percentage than he thought he might receive -- confirmed the growing power of the NSDAP and confirmed that the KPD had lost out.
In the Reichstag, the NSDAP was never a majority party, though in the last two elections prior to Hitler's seizure of power, the NSDAP were the largest single party in that body.
The strong showing in a race for the Presidency coupled with his being the leader of the plurality party in the Reichstag were factors that combined to propel him into the chancellorship -- to which he was appointed, not elected.
So, Hitler was never elected, but the electoral process was one of the stepping stones to power for the NSDAP.
"The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman
"The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." -- H. L. Mencken
Re: Gal Giap, aged 102, is dead
I don't think that Hitler's rise to power was democratic, but my reasons are different.
1. Prime ministers and Chancellors (largely the same) are not elected as such, but approved by a majority of the legislature. So while technically Hitler was not elected in the capacity of chancellor, his appointment was legal on paper. As said, most of the things he did afterwards were unconstitutional.
2. See number 1. The conservatives approved his bid for chancellor because they didn't believe things would turn out that bad in practice. This isn't an unusual turn of events in parliamentary democracies today.
3. No argument.
4. I think that it's actually unknown what the truth is behind the Reichstag fire. It could be that it was a false flag operation orchestrated by the nazis, or it could have been a lucky turn of events that gave them the excuse they needed to cement their power.
5 & 6: I agree with you, and these are the reasons why I don't think that the rise of the nazis qualifies as "democractic".
The Weimar Republic never had one easy moment from its inception, and having paramilitary gangs like the SA mucking things up only made it worse. The various factions in the Reichstag were never able to form a coaltion to actually support a government, at least not for any meaningful amount of time. The only reason the administrations/cabinets functioned at all was because they used various "emergency clauses" to keep the daily operations of the state running. Which is one of the reasons why Hitler was able to shove aside the constitution so easily - because it never worked properly to begin with.
Last edited by Kralizec; 10-15-2013 at 23:26. Reason: Removal of spelling mistakes and obscene content
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