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Thread: Why do 'Black' people perform more poorly on tests?

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    Banned Kadagar_AV's Avatar
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    Default Why do 'Black' people perform more poorly on tests?

    This is something I have been pondering lately.

    Black people seem to do pretty bad in any society, including their own. They also generally fail on IQ tests compared to others.

    What is it that I have been missing?

    No really, modern science would probably Occams Razor the dilemma, no?

    If not, black people are failing, so it should be unto THEM to prove their worth in an argument, again, no? Or did we somehow skip the general rule of the one making a claim having to support it?

    Honestly speaking, blacks just don't seem to do all that great, so what are the reasons / excuses for it?
    Last edited by Beskar; 10-19-2013 at 00:03. Reason: changed the title

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    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why do 'Black' people perform more poorly on tests?

    Were the IQ tests made by black people or by white people?
    Or is there any standard universal IQ test that is objectively valid?
    And what does an IQ test measure anyway?
    If I never learned to read, would that make my IQ 0 simply becuse I couldn't read the task descriptions on an IQ test?

    It's hard to comment on your questions without knowing the circumstances of the tests you mention.


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    Default Re: Why do 'Black' people perform more poorly on tests?

    Or did we somehow skip the general rule of the one making a claim having to support it?
    No self-awareness?


    2011:



    And in the US 15% of black households have an income over $75,000.

    Rather than having "failed everywhere", the "blacks" seem instead to have made significant strides despite the significant systemic disadvantages faced by their communities or societies. In Africa, despite a poor starting position, observers generally agree that the majority of sub-Saharan states are continually improving in stability, political openness, economic development, and so on.

    Incredible that after a mere two generations of widespread black self-sovereignty in the world, the fact that they have not become wildly prosperous leads you to dismiss them: 'Ah well, the blacks have failed, I guess they just suck.'
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    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why do 'Black' people perform more poorly on tests?

    Biggest influence are education are socio-economical factors.

    A rich person with access to private tutors and support in their education on average is going to end up attaining better results than some-one who hasn't.
    Then on average, the 'Black' population is poorer than the 'White' population.
    When looking across countries, there is also a cultural bias to consider from the method of testing. Not everyone is raised with the same values.

    In an interesting situation, Asians score far higher than a 'White' individual. This is mostly attributed to a far stronger work and study ethic. But by using the tone and implications from your post, does that mean you are stupid/inferior than Asians and you should prove your worth to them and that 'White' people are failing ?

    Obviously, there comes the other point where there are some very intelligent 'Black' people and there are some very stupid 'White' people which shows that it isn't simply a skin colour issue. It is all down to circumstances.

    Why can you not simply accept people as being people without having to put big labels to segregate them?
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    Banned Kadagar_AV's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why do 'Black' people perform more poorly on tests?

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    Were the IQ tests made by black people or by white people?
    Or is there any standard universal IQ test that is objectively valid?
    And what does an IQ test measure anyway?
    If I never learned to read, would that make my IQ 0 simply becuse I couldn't read the task descriptions on an IQ test?

    It's hard to comment on your questions without knowing the circumstances of the tests you mention.
    The circumstances = black people seem to do rather bad. As a German, do you honestly think that it is the black population that makes your nation the motor of EU at large? Or are they a burden on your society?

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    No self-awareness?


    2011:



    And in the US 15% of black households have an income over $75,000.

    Rather than having "failed everywhere", the "blacks" seem instead to have made significant strides despite the significant systemic disadvantages faced by their communities or societies. In Africa, despite a poor starting position, observers generally agree that the majority of sub-Saharan states are continually improving in stability, political openness, economic development, and so on.

    Incredible that after a mere two generations of widespread black self-sovereignty in the world, the fact that they have not become wildly prosperous leads you to dismiss them: 'Ah well, the blacks have failed, I guess they just suck.'
    Cool chart of Queens, now please make your perspective rather more wide.

    As a sidenote: Did your REALLY just make some sort of claim that because of stuff in Queens it's a general fact?

    Where are the black laureates, go masters, chess masters...Where are the black mathematicians?

    Look at the history books, where are the black Alexander the great, Genghis Khan, Ceasars?

    Yes black people have failed, that it is because they suck have to stand for you. I am making no such claim, my claim is that blacks seem to do ill in their own nations coupled with doing ill when they have minority status in other nations, compared to other immigrant groups with minority status.
    Last edited by Kadagar_AV; 10-19-2013 at 00:31.

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    Banned Kadagar_AV's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why do 'Black' people perform more poorly on tests?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiaexz View Post
    Biggest influence are education are socio-economical factors.

    A rich person with access to private tutors and support in their education on average is going to end up attaining better results than some-one who hasn't.
    Then on average, the 'Black' population is poorer than the 'White' population.
    When looking across countries, there is also a cultural bias to consider from the method of testing. Not everyone is raised with the same values.

    In an interesting situation, Asians score far higher than a 'White' individual. This is mostly attributed to a far stronger work and study ethic. But by using the tone and implications from your post, does that mean you are stupid/inferior than Asians and you should prove your worth to them and that 'White' people are failing ?

    Obviously, there comes the other point where there are some very intelligent 'Black' people and there are some very stupid 'White' people which shows that it isn't simply a skin colour issue. It is all down to circumstances.

    Why can you not simply accept people as being people without having to put big labels to segregate them?
    To put it short: **** yeah, I would claim Asians are more developed in the cognitive field compared to their white counterparts.

    I have a problem with blacks because many nations, mine included, WANT them to be as good - and bend over in every which way to make facts vanish.
    Last edited by Kadagar_AV; 10-19-2013 at 00:36.

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    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why do 'Black' people perform more poorly on tests?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV View Post
    The circumstances = black people seem to do rather bad. As a German, do you honestly think that it is the black population that makes your nation the motor of EU at large? Or are they a burden on your society?
    There aren't all that many here but I'd say most are much better than I am at the things we do.


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    Default Re: Why do 'Black' people perform more poorly on tests?

    This is bad even for the Backroom.
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    Default Re: Why do 'Black' people perform more poorly on tests?

    their own nations
    Modern "black" states are almost all agglomerations of dozens of tribes with historical animosity between each other - some "nation"...

    coupled with doing ill when they have minority status in other nations, compared to other immigrant groups with minority status.
    So, the historical disadvantages mean nothing?

    Anyway, black-African immigrants to the US are often well-educated and skilled.

    As a sidenote: Did your REALLY just make some sort of claim that because of stuff in Queens it's a general fact?
    I made two notes, one about Queens, and another about the United States. Read them over again.

    Where are the black laureates, go masters, chess masters...Where are the black mathematicians?
    Plenty of black mathematicians. There have been black grandmasters and Laureates, what's your point?

    Look at the history books, where are the black Alexander the great, Genghis Khan, Ceasars?
    What, you want a list of black military leaders? There were many of them, so? Anyway, there are many geographical and demographic reasons for no continent-spanning native empires to emerge in Africa. That doesn't really say much of anything about the people themselves...
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    Default Re: Why do 'Black' people perform more poorly on tests?

    If someone or some group does not adhere to my definition of prosperity and success, they must be literally retarded.

    Thanks Kadagar for once again proving that European education is not what it is hyped up to be.
    In all these papers we see a love of honest work, an aversion to shams, a caution in the enunciation of conclusions, a distrust of rash generalizations and speculations based on uncertain premises. He was never anxious to add one more guess on doubtful matters in the hope of hitting the truth, or what might pass as such for a time, but was always ready to take infinite pains in the most careful testing of every theory. With these qualities was united a modesty which forbade the pushing of his own claims and desired no reputation except the unsought tribute of competent judges.

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    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why do 'Black' people perform more poorly on tests?

    The most commonly accepted theory is that "race" is a social construct and not a biological difference, and that average genetic variation of the "races" is less than the variation average between any two individuals of the same "race." This would suggest that any difference in "intelligence" must be culturally derived (my view).

    The minority opinion on the issues holds that persistently lower scores for "blacks" than for "whites" in intelligence testing exist despite specific efforts to set aside or counteract cultural differences.

    We probably do not know enough about genetics OR culture to make a final evaluation on the issue.
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    Default Re: Why do 'Black' people perform more poorly on tests?

    We probably do not know enough about genetics OR culture to make a final evaluation on the issue.
    While that's an important point, one might at least be expected to extend the intellectual courtesy of not begging the question on "black failure".
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    Default Re: Why do 'Black' people perform more poorly on tests?

    Quote Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name View Post
    If someone or some group does not adhere to my definition of prosperity and success, they must be literally retarded.
    Exactly what definition of prosperity and success is the black community adhering to?

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    Default Re: Why do 'Black' people perform more poorly on tests?

    Quote Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger View Post
    Exactly what definition of prosperity and success is the black community adhering to?
    When you try to take black culture which has historically been economically and socially disadvantaged and try to apply the standards that white culture has created for itself, you are no doubt going to look down on blacks while they try to achieve equilibrium.

    The fact that since the 1960s (a small amount of time historically) we see such facts as the ones Monty pointed out, shows that they are indeed just as smart and hard working and successful as us.

    It's like telling the owners of a small retail company that even though they expanded from 1 to 12 locations in 10 years, they are borderline retarded since the executives at WalMart built 100x more locations in the same period. Does that really say anything about the mental facilities of the small business owner?
    In all these papers we see a love of honest work, an aversion to shams, a caution in the enunciation of conclusions, a distrust of rash generalizations and speculations based on uncertain premises. He was never anxious to add one more guess on doubtful matters in the hope of hitting the truth, or what might pass as such for a time, but was always ready to take infinite pains in the most careful testing of every theory. With these qualities was united a modesty which forbade the pushing of his own claims and desired no reputation except the unsought tribute of competent judges.

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    Default Re: Why do 'Black' people perform more poorly on tests?

    I do not understand the comparison. Your small business is steadily improving, albeit at a slower rate than WalMart. The black community is not steadily improving, and is actually declining in many statistical measurements of "success". The linked data is economic; I won't even go into the social stats (crime, abortion rate, obesity, HIV/AIDS, single parent households, domestic violence, LGBT abuse, etc.), which are even worse.

    Kadagar's OP was typically crude, but I think there are legitimate questions behind it. Incredulously declaring that there's nothing to see here (move along) is willful ignorance. Of course, with an OP like that, there's probably no hope in trying to glean some meaningful discussion out of the thread.

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    Default Re: Why do 'Black' people perform more poorly on tests?

    This information you have presented is new to me. I will need to bow out and re-think the details of my argument if it is still plausible.

    I will note that looking at this data in a vacuum is dangerous as there is still programs that drastically impact the black community disproportionately, such as the War on Drugs. The data in context may even support my argument such that blacks are still able to keep the gap stable despite these targeted programs against them.
    Last edited by a completely inoffensive name; 10-19-2013 at 06:07.
    In all these papers we see a love of honest work, an aversion to shams, a caution in the enunciation of conclusions, a distrust of rash generalizations and speculations based on uncertain premises. He was never anxious to add one more guess on doubtful matters in the hope of hitting the truth, or what might pass as such for a time, but was always ready to take infinite pains in the most careful testing of every theory. With these qualities was united a modesty which forbade the pushing of his own claims and desired no reputation except the unsought tribute of competent judges.

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    Default Re: Why do 'Black' people perform more poorly on tests?

    Interesting notes:

    *Blacks who have experienced poverty in childhood are likelier than whites to stay in or fall into poverty.
    *Blacks are much more likely than whites to spend a considerable part (i.e. > 25%)of their childhoods in poverty
    *The majority of white children never experience poverty, and the majority of black children do
    *Blacks are more downwardly-mobile than whites in the second and third income quintiles, and less downwardly-mobile than whites in the fourth and fifth income quintiles
    *Blacks are more upwardly-mobile from the first and second income quintiles than whites
    *19.3% of black households are in the middle-quintile for income, while 20.2% of white households are
    *24.6% of black households are in the top-two quintiles for income, while 42% of white households are


    My impression is that the mediocre statistics can be interpreted as the stagnation of the majority of poor or lower-middle-class blacks masking the solidification and modest growth of the black middle and upper classes.
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    Default Re: Why do 'Black' people perform more poorly on tests?

    For reference:

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	household-income-2012-real-decline-from-peak.gif 
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ID:	11095
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    Default Re: Why do 'Black' people perform more poorly on tests?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV View Post
    Look at the history books, where are the black Alexander the great, Genghis Khan, Ceasars?
    Musa I of Mali is a candidate of the richest person in history and the reason why the city of Timbuktu has a vague western awareness for a long time. Kush conquered Eqypt. You got Aksum, Songhai, Mutapa etc, etc.

    Africa got significant natural barriers in the north (Sahara), in the middle (the tropics) and simply too much distance in the west-east direction. The Kanem-Bornu Empire, whose base was in Chad seems to have faced very little empire resistance due to the last one.

    Without extreme naval superiority, it's pretty much impssible to maintain something accross Sahara.

    It's worth to remember Shaka the Zulu was an exception. He found the spear better than the musket (that was a common weapon in Africa by this time, imported). When the west started to show up with rifles, improved cannons and (later on) machine guns, that's when the real conquest of Africa began.
    We are all aware that the senses can be deceived, the eyes fooled. But how can we be sure our senses are not being deceived at any particular time, or even all the time? Might I just be a brain in a tank somewhere, tricked all my life into believing in the events of this world by some insane computer? And does my life gain or lose meaning based on my reaction to such solipsism?

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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why do 'Black' people perform more poorly on tests?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV View Post
    This is something I have been pondering lately.

    Black people seem to do pretty bad in any society, including their own. They also generally fail on IQ tests compared to others.

    What is it that I have been missing?
    The island of choice? You have been pondering about it a bit longer here

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    Default Re: Why do 'Black' people perform more poorly on tests?

    Eh, didn't we just have this discussion recently?

    Of course Kadagar's question in the OP is valid. Now, here are some equally valid questions to consider:

    Why do people from poor backgrounds in the poorer schools perform poorly in educational tests?
    Why do people from cultures that do not share Western Victorian-based values of education perform poorly in a Western Victorian-based education system?
    Why are entirely artificial African states that just overcame a struggle over brutal imperialism not shining beacons of stable liberal democracy?
    Why are Caribbean states formed from black slave rebellions with no native infrastructure not as advanced as their neighbours?
    Why do you think skin colour is a meaningful method of categorization?*
    How has the Backroom come to this?

    etc...

    *I'm not some leftist/PC ideologue - if you want to talk about Australian Aborigines, I'll grant you could at least make a case - this is understandable given their genetic isolation. The same is not true for 'blacks' as a whole.
    At the end of the day politics is just trash compared to the Gospel.

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    Default Re: Why do 'Black' people perform more poorly on tests?

    This couldn't be a complex issue of humanities tribal nature, various socioeconomic, political, and military issues that span literally thousands of years into history and across the entire globe that cannot be fixed with even several generations of time. Can't be that... they must just be stupid.

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    Default Re: Why do 'Black' people perform more poorly on tests?

    Quote Originally Posted by AntiDamascus View Post
    This couldn't be a complex issue of humanities tribal nature, various socioeconomic, political, and military issues that span literally thousands of years into history and across the entire globe that cannot be fixed with even several generations of time. Can't be that... they must just be stupid.
    Well fine! Just show off your cognitive complexity. Next you'll be reveling in some kind of shades of grey reference. Reductio ad absurbum is good enough for the rest of us but not for you!

    Toff!
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    Banned Kadagar_AV's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why do 'Black' people perform more poorly on tests?

    Uh, I have no idea what mod changed the title of the thread... But it's kind of misleading, as I mainly question why black people seem to fail in every society they join.

    That they fail on IQ tests is more like a sidenote.

    OK, everyone... So black people are as good? That is why every culture they join seem to look down on them?

    Honestly speaking, in all countries I have been to, people look down on blacks. If it's only about poverty labels and cultural stigma, how come South American or Asian people joining western societies seem to do rather well?

    Fishermen from Asia just as poor as Africans just seem to join the western society and thrive.

    Again, Occhams Razor anyone?

    It would be easy to show how black people are failing (just look at.... well pretty much anything). What I wanted from this thread was the clear evidence that blacks do as good as others, comparatively.

    My honest opinion is that there is something in the black culture that's just rotten. I also think black people tend to be less intelligent. Plenty of evidence for it, what is the evidence against it?

    I'm not looking for a racial discussion, I am looking for some clear evidence that black people do as good as others.

    Are there any?

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    Default Re: Why do 'Black' people perform more poorly on tests?

    Quote Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name View Post
    If someone or some group does not adhere to my definition of prosperity and success, they must be literally retarded.

    Thanks Kadagar for once again proving that European education is not what it is hyped up to be.
    I'll mirror the question: How does black peoples definition of prosperity and success differ from western definitions?

  26. #26

    Default Re: Why do 'Black' people perform more poorly on tests?

    You don't understand the usage of Ockham's Razor.
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    Default Re: Why do 'Black' people perform more poorly on tests?

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    You don't understand the usage of Ockham's Razor.
    Your argument is overwhelming...

  28. #28

    Default Re: Why do 'Black' people perform more poorly on tests?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV View Post
    Uh, I have no idea what mod changed the title of the thread... But it's kind of misleading, as I mainly question why black people seem to fail in every society they join.

    That they fail on IQ tests is more like a sidenote.

    OK, everyone... So black people are as good? That is why every culture they join seem to look down on them?
    Not really sure. I'll ask the Jews. Oh wait, serious answer. We've treated them as basically cattle for hundreds of years? Why are women looked down on in culture?

    Honestly speaking, in all countries I have been to, people look down on blacks. If it's only about poverty labels and cultural stigma, how come South American or Asian people joining western societies seem to do rather well?
    Yea why are those South American immigrants from Europe who killed all the natives doing way better in western culture.

    Fishermen from Asia just as poor as Africans just seem to join the western society and thrive.
    Ah yes "seem". Just like it "seems" like you're making this all up based on gut impressions. See how fun that was to use that word? It's technically true because it seems that way!

    Again, Occhams Razor anyone?
    Again yes, do you not understand history? Or racism? or politics? Do you just not know what people have done to each other?

    It would be easy to show how black people are failing (just look at.... well pretty much anything). What I wanted from this thread was the clear evidence that blacks do as good as others, comparatively.
    President Barack Obama. Secretary of State Condaleeza Rice. Secretary of State Colin Powell. Denzel Washington. Ben Carson.

    My honest opinion is that there is something in the black culture that's just rotten. I also think black people tend to be less intelligent. Plenty of evidence for it, what is the evidence against it?
    This is a few lines I just love. I rolled my eyes so hard it hurt. (In before "but but but you didn't answer it!")

    I'm not looking for a racial discussion, I am looking for some clear evidence that black people do as good as others.
    So you don't want a discussion on race. You just want clear evidence that the people who's culture you hate and who you think are basically just dumber than the rest of us.... aren't? Good call.

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    Default Re: Why do 'Black' people perform more poorly on tests?

    Yeah black culture is rotten.

    Soul and blues music is of the devil.
    This space intentionally left blank.

  30. #30

    Default Re: Why do 'Black' people perform more poorly on tests?

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency
    *19.3% of black households are in the middle-quintile for income, while 20.2% of white households are
    *24.6% of black households are in the top-two quintiles for income, while 42% of white households are
    Unfortunately, I can't find any historical data for household income distribution by race (the quoted is current). If possible, it actually would be interesting to see how blacks and whites compare through quintiles. I mean, I have been able to find mean and median quintile-incomes by race for households down to 1967, but I just can't get, say, a breakdown by race for # of households within each quintile.
    Vitiate Man.

    History repeats the old conceits
    The glib replies, the same defeats


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