(Not) UN on Sinterklaas: Yep, we are guilty.

[Andres]

anyway the issue at stake here is imo, when does one have "the right" to be offended, or when is it valid. This whole discussion is often rebuked with "well, you can take offense to everything" and while i dont think when it puts like that its an argument, but there is still merit to the statement.

How do we determine when something is offensive, what happens when someone is offended but no offense was intented? etc

The more crescendo the hysteria goes, the less likely this will end well.

I think the main issue is that most people have their viewpoint, stand their ground and don't even listen to each other.

One the one side, you have people who take offense. On the other side, you have people who deem it ridiculous and who say that they are overreacting.

But it's not very difficult to take the offense away.

For children, it won't matter if "Zwarte Piet" is an asian or white guy or woman. They won't care if Sinterklaas is suddenly a black guy. Sinterklaas usually has more than one servant. It's perfectly possible to keep the fairy tale intact and have 4 Pieten of different skin coulour and/or why not a black or an asian Sinterklaas.

Even if you find it a bit silly that people are offended, one must admit that it is very easy to keep the tradition, but in a less offensive package.

A small compromise and everybody is happy again.

Ridiculous or overreaction or not, it's not that hard to find a decent solution that satisfies everybody.

People often are way too busy with their own rightheousness instead of just proposing a satisfying compromise.

Instead of looking for arguments to prove one is right, one should better use his creative juices to find a solution for the issue. And in this case, a solution is very easily found.

[The Stranger]

The more crescendo the hysteria goes, the less likely this will end well.

I think the main issue is that most people have their viewpoint, stand their ground and don't even listen to each other.

One the one side, you have people who take offense. On the other side, you have people who deem it ridiculous and who say that they are overreacting.

But it's not very difficult to take the offense away.

For children, it won't matter if "Zwarte Piet" is an asian or white guy or woman. They won't care if Sinterklaas is suddenly a black guy. Sinterklaas usually has more than one servant. It's perfectly possible to keep the fairy tale intact and have 4 Pieten of different skin coulour and/or why not a black or an asian Sinterklaas.

Even if you find it a bit silly that people are offended, one must admit that it is very easy to keep the tradition, but in a less offensive package.

A small compromise and everybody is happy again.

Ridiculous or overreaction or not, it's not that hard to find a decent solution that satisfies everybody.

People often are way too busy with their own rightheousness instead of just proposing a satisfying compromise.

Instead of looking for arguments to prove one is right, one should better use his creative juices to find a solution for the issue. And in this case, a solution is very easily found.

yea thats definitely part of the problem. as i said in my first post, you can hardly call this a debate or a discussion. its just 2 sides venting their frustration at each other, none of them really listening or talking to each other.

[Andres]

yea thats definitely part of the problem. as i said in my first post, you can hardly call this a debate or a discussion. its just 2 sides venting their frustration at each other, none of them really listening or talking to each other.

Which raises the question: do we have a problem that people want to fix or is all this hysteria just people looking for an excuse to vent and to channel frustrations? Do they want to solve the problem or do they prefer to just yell at each other as loud as they can?

I think the best way to deal with this is to have somebody neutral ask both parties to sit around the table, have the neutral person offer a simple solution and when both sides keep yelling hysterically, ask the above questions. Then leave the studio and immediately start a program in which you make good fun of the hysterical people with a few hilarious sketches. End with the comment "ok, now that they channeled their frustrations with each other and we had a few good laughs at their hysterical expense, we can now carry on with the order of the day". Broadcast it in prime time. .

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Which raises the question: do we have a problem that people want to fix or is all this hysteria just people looking for an excuse to vent and to channel frustrations? Do they want to solve the problem or do they prefer to just yell at each other as loud as they can?

I think the best way to deal with this is to have somebody neutral ask both parties to sit around the table, have the neutral person offer a simple solution and when both sides keep yelling hysterically, ask the above questions. Then leave the studio and immediately start a program in which you make good fun of the hysterical people with a few hilarious sketches. End with the comment "ok, now that they channeled their frustrations with each other and we had a few good laughs at their hysterical expense, we can now carry on with the order of the day". Broadcast it in prime time. .

Perhaps somebody from the Dutch Jewish or Muslim communities who have not attachment to this pagan/Christian ritual?

[Fragony]

yea thats definitely part of the problem. as i said in my first post, you can hardly call this a debate or a discussion. its just 2 sides venting their frustration at each other, none of them really listening or talking to each other.

Ever considered that the offence taken is offensive. Nothing needs to be changed. Nobody but a few boohoohoo-piets and 100% white self rigtious rebels without a cause complain. For the rest of us it's just a beloved tradition that has absolutily nothing to do with racism (or slavery fu UN you are perfectly fine with us going to kill hundreds of negroes in Mali, wtf do you think how it will be if you send our special forces, use the Dutch as mercenaries but rain hell on a kids party screw you). Some people just need racism to exist because they don't have anything else to do.

[The Stranger]

Ever considered that the offence taken is offensive. Nothing needs to be changed. Nobody but a few boohoohoo-piets and 100% white self rigtious rebels without a cause complain. For the rest of us it's just a beloved tradition that has absolutily nothing to do with racism (or slavery fu UN you are perfectly fine with us going to kill hundreds of negroes in Mali, wtf do you think how it will be if you send our special forces, use the Dutch as mercenaries but rain hell on a kids party screw you). Some people just need racism to exist because they don't have anything else to do.

not only did i consider it, i mentioned it in one of my previous posts. please do keep up fragony.

your post however perfectly examplifies what andres was talking about. and its imo a very arrogant attitude. Just because they are perhaps a minority doesnt mean their feelings shouldnt be respected or their arguments heard. Just because the "Almighty Frag" thinks it is bullshit, doesnt neccesarily make it so. The fact that some black/brown/whatever colour of people think its is not a problem (of which I myself am one of them) is no argument in favor of it not being a problem, in the same fashion that the fact that there are white/yellow/whatever color of people who think that it is a racist and a problem is no argument in favor of it actually being a problem...

[Fragony]

not only did i consider it, i mentioned it in one of my previous posts. please do keep up fragony.

your post however perfectly examplifies what andres was talking about. and its imo a very arrogant attitude. Just because they are perhaps a minority doesnt mean their feelings shouldnt be respected or their arguments heard. Just because the "Almighty Frag" thinks it is bullshit, doesnt neccesarily make it so. The fact that some black/brown/whatever colour of people think its is not a problem (of which I myself am one of them) is no argument in favor of it not being a problem, in the same fashion that the fact that there are white/yellow/whatever color of people who think that it is a racist and a problem is no argument in favor of it actually being a problem...

The 'allmighty Frag' is a very polite guy, and he says ffsstfu. Feel free to take offence. At anything. But just don't spoil our party.

[The Stranger]

That is a whole different attitude. Feel free to ignore them, but if you do enter the discussion then do so fairly. As i said, feel free to celebrate it in whatever way you like. If you dont care about their feelings, or if you think that for whatever reason the "good" effects outweigh the "bad", than by all means continue. It is your tradition, and it is you who decides how it will be shaped and what you want to be part of your heritage. No one should force such a decision upon you, that much we agree to.

[Kralizec]

I've seen/read/heard a few people making a good case for changing the character. Generally their point is similar to Andres' post.

An interesting factoid is that Sinterklaas is also celebrated among the black population of the Netherlands Antilles. But apparently they've begun to question the character of Zwarte Piet, too, with the exception that the black people who celebrate it aren't accused of being flaming racists.

Meanwhile, the chairwoman of the UN group that is investigating the case has decided to vent her personal opinion prematurely:
- She can't understand why the Dutch don't see this for what it is: a return to slavery (hint: the character has never been depicted as a slave, not even the 19th century)
- Black people don't disguise themselves as whiteys and say "this is how all white people look like!" (a red herring)
- The Dutch shouldn't make changes to the tradition, they must abolish it entirely.

I don't know, maybe this chairwoman should adress the people of the Netherlands Antilles as well? I would certainly expect her to use the same tone. Maybe call them a bunch of Uncle Toms or even race traitors. Yep, that will go down well.

[Fragony]

That is a whole different attitude. Feel free to ignore them, but if you do enter the discussion then do so fairly. As i said, feel free to celebrate it in whatever way you like. If you dont care about their feelings, or if you think that for whatever reason the "good" effects outweigh the "bad", than by all means continue. It is your tradition, and it is you who decides how it will be shaped and what you want to be part of your heritage. No one should force such a decision upon you, that much we agree to.

Good, as some people need to be offended just as badly as a drugwhore needs heroin. Sinterklaas isn't going to change, the complainers can shove it up their behinds in all directions. We can put up with a lot, but there is a point where it is hands off. As if the Netherlands is a racist society, sure it exists some people are racist, but ffs a possible UN resolution. They are perfectly fine with our special forces who are going to kill a whole lot of people in Mali though, oh no problem there