(Not) UN on Sinterklaas: Yep, we are guilty.

[AntiDamascus]

Is there something wrong with liking watermelon and fried chicken?

[Beskar]

Is there something wrong with liking watermelon and fried chicken?

Long time ago, I was with a friend and we heard these stereotypes from Americans and we didn't know the answer, specifically, Watermelon. Watermelon just seemed so alien of a stereotype, so we put our googlefu to good use. We came across a bunch of answers such as 'Easier to Steal' and other nonsense, then there was an article saying that Watermelon was a very cheap fruit (chicken is cheap too) back in the ol' times which was popular with the poorer segments of society who could not afford the more expensive food but both provided good nourishment. Another one talked about it being slavery propaganda summed up as "Simple minded folk who are happy with Watermelon and a little rest".

Very old stereotype that some how lasted over hundred years, even though that 'black' people only account for 11% of Watermelon consumption in the United States.

[Montmorency]

Isn't it just that watermelon and fried chicken were more common in the South than the North and during the black migrations to the Northern cities of the first half of the 20th c. the Northerners came to associate these things with blacks instead of Southerners generally?

[The Stranger]

Long time ago, I was with a friend and we heard these stereotypes from Americans and we didn't know the answer, specifically, Watermelon. Watermelon just seemed so alien of a stereotype, so we put our googlefu to good use. We came across a bunch of answers such as 'Easier to Steal' and other nonsense, then there was an article saying that Watermelon was a very cheap fruit (chicken is cheap too) back in the ol' times which was popular with the poorer segments of society who could not afford the more expensive food but both provided good nourishment. Another one talked about it being slavery propaganda summed up as "Simple minded folk who are happy with Watermelon and a little rest".

Very old stereotype that some how lasted over hundred years, even though that 'black' people only account for 11% of Watermelon consumption in the United States.

stereotypes are often wrong. such as that all black people like bananas (because theyre basically monkeys, if another thread may be believed) And you dont want to know how often i hear that one or a variation of it ;)




anyway the issue at stake here is imo, when does one have "the right" to be offended, or when is it valid. This whole discussion is often rebuked with "well, you can take offense to everything" and while i dont think when it puts like that its an argument, but there is still merit to the statement.

How do we determine when something is offensive, what happens when someone is offended but no offense was intented? etc

[Fragony]

Possible UN resolution? The same UN that wants our special forces on the frontline in Mali? Which isn't really a frontline of course, which means a whole lot of innocent civilians will get killed. Unlike zwarte piet they don't hand out candy, very good at killing though. As if this couldn't get any more absurd.

[Andres]

anyway the issue at stake here is imo, when does one have "the right" to be offended, or when is it valid. This whole discussion is often rebuked with "well, you can take offense to everything" and while i dont think when it puts like that its an argument, but there is still merit to the statement.

How do we determine when something is offensive, what happens when someone is offended but no offense was intented? etc

The more crescendo the hysteria goes, the less likely this will end well.

I think the main issue is that most people have their viewpoint, stand their ground and don't even listen to each other.

One the one side, you have people who take offense. On the other side, you have people who deem it ridiculous and who say that they are overreacting.

But it's not very difficult to take the offense away.

For children, it won't matter if "Zwarte Piet" is an asian or white guy or woman. They won't care if Sinterklaas is suddenly a black guy. Sinterklaas usually has more than one servant. It's perfectly possible to keep the fairy tale intact and have 4 Pieten of different skin coulour and/or why not a black or an asian Sinterklaas.

Even if you find it a bit silly that people are offended, one must admit that it is very easy to keep the tradition, but in a less offensive package.

A small compromise and everybody is happy again.

Ridiculous or overreaction or not, it's not that hard to find a decent solution that satisfies everybody.

People often are way too busy with their own rightheousness instead of just proposing a satisfying compromise.

Instead of looking for arguments to prove one is right, one should better use his creative juices to find a solution for the issue. And in this case, a solution is very easily found.

[The Stranger]

The more crescendo the hysteria goes, the less likely this will end well.

I think the main issue is that most people have their viewpoint, stand their ground and don't even listen to each other.

One the one side, you have people who take offense. On the other side, you have people who deem it ridiculous and who say that they are overreacting.

But it's not very difficult to take the offense away.

For children, it won't matter if "Zwarte Piet" is an asian or white guy or woman. They won't care if Sinterklaas is suddenly a black guy. Sinterklaas usually has more than one servant. It's perfectly possible to keep the fairy tale intact and have 4 Pieten of different skin coulour and/or why not a black or an asian Sinterklaas.

Even if you find it a bit silly that people are offended, one must admit that it is very easy to keep the tradition, but in a less offensive package.

A small compromise and everybody is happy again.

Ridiculous or overreaction or not, it's not that hard to find a decent solution that satisfies everybody.

People often are way too busy with their own rightheousness instead of just proposing a satisfying compromise.

Instead of looking for arguments to prove one is right, one should better use his creative juices to find a solution for the issue. And in this case, a solution is very easily found.

yea thats definitely part of the problem. as i said in my first post, you can hardly call this a debate or a discussion. its just 2 sides venting their frustration at each other, none of them really listening or talking to each other.

[Andres]

yea thats definitely part of the problem. as i said in my first post, you can hardly call this a debate or a discussion. its just 2 sides venting their frustration at each other, none of them really listening or talking to each other.

Which raises the question: do we have a problem that people want to fix or is all this hysteria just people looking for an excuse to vent and to channel frustrations? Do they want to solve the problem or do they prefer to just yell at each other as loud as they can?

I think the best way to deal with this is to have somebody neutral ask both parties to sit around the table, have the neutral person offer a simple solution and when both sides keep yelling hysterically, ask the above questions. Then leave the studio and immediately start a program in which you make good fun of the hysterical people with a few hilarious sketches. End with the comment "ok, now that they channeled their frustrations with each other and we had a few good laughs at their hysterical expense, we can now carry on with the order of the day". Broadcast it in prime time. .

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Which raises the question: do we have a problem that people want to fix or is all this hysteria just people looking for an excuse to vent and to channel frustrations? Do they want to solve the problem or do they prefer to just yell at each other as loud as they can?

I think the best way to deal with this is to have somebody neutral ask both parties to sit around the table, have the neutral person offer a simple solution and when both sides keep yelling hysterically, ask the above questions. Then leave the studio and immediately start a program in which you make good fun of the hysterical people with a few hilarious sketches. End with the comment "ok, now that they channeled their frustrations with each other and we had a few good laughs at their hysterical expense, we can now carry on with the order of the day". Broadcast it in prime time. .

Perhaps somebody from the Dutch Jewish or Muslim communities who have not attachment to this pagan/Christian ritual?

[Fragony]

yea thats definitely part of the problem. as i said in my first post, you can hardly call this a debate or a discussion. its just 2 sides venting their frustration at each other, none of them really listening or talking to each other.

Ever considered that the offence taken is offensive. Nothing needs to be changed. Nobody but a few boohoohoo-piets and 100% white self rigtious rebels without a cause complain. For the rest of us it's just a beloved tradition that has absolutily nothing to do with racism (or slavery fu UN you are perfectly fine with us going to kill hundreds of negroes in Mali, wtf do you think how it will be if you send our special forces, use the Dutch as mercenaries but rain hell on a kids party screw you). Some people just need racism to exist because they don't have anything else to do.

[The Stranger]

Ever considered that the offence taken is offensive. Nothing needs to be changed. Nobody but a few boohoohoo-piets and 100% white self rigtious rebels without a cause complain. For the rest of us it's just a beloved tradition that has absolutily nothing to do with racism (or slavery fu UN you are perfectly fine with us going to kill hundreds of negroes in Mali, wtf do you think how it will be if you send our special forces, use the Dutch as mercenaries but rain hell on a kids party screw you). Some people just need racism to exist because they don't have anything else to do.

not only did i consider it, i mentioned it in one of my previous posts. please do keep up fragony.

your post however perfectly examplifies what andres was talking about. and its imo a very arrogant attitude. Just because they are perhaps a minority doesnt mean their feelings shouldnt be respected or their arguments heard. Just because the "Almighty Frag" thinks it is bullshit, doesnt neccesarily make it so. The fact that some black/brown/whatever colour of people think its is not a problem (of which I myself am one of them) is no argument in favor of it not being a problem, in the same fashion that the fact that there are white/yellow/whatever color of people who think that it is a racist and a problem is no argument in favor of it actually being a problem...