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Originally Posted by The Stranger:
not only did i consider it, i mentioned it in one of my previous posts. please do keep up fragony.
your post however perfectly examplifies what andres was talking about. and its imo a very arrogant attitude. Just because they are perhaps a minority doesnt mean their feelings shouldnt be respected or their arguments heard. Just because the "Almighty Frag" thinks it is bullshit, doesnt neccesarily make it so. The fact that some black/brown/whatever colour of people think its is not a problem (of which I myself am one of them) is no argument in favor of it not being a problem, in the same fashion that the fact that there are white/yellow/whatever color of people who think that it is a racist and a problem is no argument in favor of it actually being a problem...
The 'allmighty Frag' is a very polite guy, and he says ffsstfu. Feel free to take offence. At anything. But just don't spoil our party.not only did i consider it, i mentioned it in one of my previous posts. please do keep up fragony.
your post however perfectly examplifies what andres was talking about. and its imo a very arrogant attitude. Just because they are perhaps a minority doesnt mean their feelings shouldnt be respected or their arguments heard. Just because the "Almighty Frag" thinks it is bullshit, doesnt neccesarily make it so. The fact that some black/brown/whatever colour of people think its is not a problem (of which I myself am one of them) is no argument in favor of it not being a problem, in the same fashion that the fact that there are white/yellow/whatever color of people who think that it is a racist and a problem is no argument in favor of it actually being a problem...
That is a whole different attitude. Feel free to ignore them, but if you do enter the discussion then do so fairly. As i said, feel free to celebrate it in whatever way you like. If you dont care about their feelings, or if you think that for whatever reason the "good" effects outweigh the "bad", than by all means continue. It is your tradition, and it is you who decides how it will be shaped and what you want to be part of your heritage. No one should force such a decision upon you, that much we agree to.
I've seen/read/heard a few people making a good case for changing the character. Generally their point is similar to Andres' post.
An interesting factoid is that Sinterklaas is also celebrated among the black population of the Netherlands Antilles. But apparently they've begun to question the character of Zwarte Piet, too, with the exception that the black people who celebrate it aren't accused of being flaming racists.
Meanwhile, the chairwoman of the UN group that is investigating the case has decided to vent her personal opinion prematurely:
- She can't understand why the Dutch don't see this for what it is: a return to slavery (hint: the character has never been depicted as a slave, not even the 19th century)
- Black people don't disguise themselves as whiteys and say "this is how all white people look like!" (a red herring)
- The Dutch shouldn't make changes to the tradition, they must abolish it entirely.
I don't know, maybe this chairwoman should adress the people of the Netherlands Antilles as well? I would certainly expect her to use the same tone. Maybe call them a bunch of Uncle Toms or even race traitors. Yep, that will go down well.
An interesting factoid is that Sinterklaas is also celebrated among the black population of the Netherlands Antilles. But apparently they've begun to question the character of Zwarte Piet, too, with the exception that the black people who celebrate it aren't accused of being flaming racists.
Meanwhile, the chairwoman of the UN group that is investigating the case has decided to vent her personal opinion prematurely:
- She can't understand why the Dutch don't see this for what it is: a return to slavery (hint: the character has never been depicted as a slave, not even the 19th century)
- Black people don't disguise themselves as whiteys and say "this is how all white people look like!" (a red herring)
- The Dutch shouldn't make changes to the tradition, they must abolish it entirely.
I don't know, maybe this chairwoman should adress the people of the Netherlands Antilles as well? I would certainly expect her to use the same tone. Maybe call them a bunch of Uncle Toms or even race traitors. Yep, that will go down well.
This is a surprisingly good article on the subject (sort of):
Originally Posted by :
1. You Can't Talk Someone Out of Being Offended
[...]
2. You Can't Force Someone to Be Offended (And You Shouldn't Try)
[...]
3. It's Pretty Rude to Get Offended for Someone Else
[...]
4. Being Offended Doesn't Always Matter
[...]
5. [Discussion Is] Good for Us
1. You Can't Talk Someone Out of Being Offended
[...]
2. You Can't Force Someone to Be Offended (And You Shouldn't Try)
[...]
3. It's Pretty Rude to Get Offended for Someone Else
[...]
4. Being Offended Doesn't Always Matter
[...]
5. [Discussion Is] Good for Us
Originally Posted by The Stranger:
That is a whole different attitude. Feel free to ignore them, but if you do enter the discussion then do so fairly. As i said, feel free to celebrate it in whatever way you like. If you dont care about their feelings, or if you think that for whatever reason the "good" effects outweigh the "bad", than by all means continue. It is your tradition, and it is you who decides how it will be shaped and what you want to be part of your heritage. No one should force such a decision upon you, that much we agree to.
Good, as some people need to be offended just as badly as a drugwhore needs heroin. Sinterklaas isn't going to change, the complainers can shove it up their behinds in all directions. We can put up with a lot, but there is a point where it is hands off. As if the Netherlands is a racist society, sure it exists some people are racist, but ffs a possible UN resolution. They are perfectly fine with our special forces who are going to kill a whole lot of people in Mali though, oh no problem thereThat is a whole different attitude. Feel free to ignore them, but if you do enter the discussion then do so fairly. As i said, feel free to celebrate it in whatever way you like. If you dont care about their feelings, or if you think that for whatever reason the "good" effects outweigh the "bad", than by all means continue. It is your tradition, and it is you who decides how it will be shaped and what you want to be part of your heritage. No one should force such a decision upon you, that much we agree to.
Admittedly, more mundane examples have been forced to change. There was an old nursery rhyme called 'Baa baa Black Sheep' and it was a little story about a sheep and wool. However now it is 'baa baa green sheep'.
---
Though, the beloved British Golliwog is on par with Zwarte Piet. Apparently popular in the colonies too.
It was a toy all the kids used to tug up at night with. All the rage as parents used to get the Golliwog collectables. Even served us his delicious marmalade, everyone was happy and free. There were stories, songs, poems... everyone loved and cherished their golliwogg. They were as intrinsically British as the teddybear.
This is the fate of the Golliwog.
---
Though, the beloved British Golliwog is on par with Zwarte Piet. Apparently popular in the colonies too.
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
It was a toy all the kids used to tug up at night with. All the rage as parents used to get the Golliwog collectables. Even served us his delicious marmalade, everyone was happy and free. There were stories, songs, poems... everyone loved and cherished their golliwogg. They were as intrinsically British as the teddybear.
This is the fate of the Golliwog.
Originally Posted by Tiaexz:
It was a toy all the kids used to tug up at night with.
It was a toy all the kids used to tug up at night with.
You mean hug. Right?
New survey, 85% of the black Dutchies have absolutily no problem with zwarte piet, they see no racism in it. That's a whopper of a majority. Not sure if the remaining 15% find it questionable or offensive it doesn't say that. Can we go back to nothingtoseeheremovealong-mode please?
UN, get of our back we are perfectly harmless.
UN, get of our back we are perfectly harmless.
Turns out to be a whole lot of nothing. The women who threatened with a UN resolution has no serious function in the UN and has as much influence there as I have. She can use the paper. One down. Now let's bomb amsterdam, the capital of patronising selfcongratulating morally superior gutmenschen and everything is fine again and me and my black-friends are going to have a fun celebration.
Originally Posted by johnhughthom:
You mean hug. Right?
Tug/Tuck-up, which is where you hug/snuggle-up to something, yes.You mean hug. Right?
Originally Posted by Fragony:
Turns out to be a whole lot of nothing. The women who threatened with a UN resolution has no serious function in the UN and has as much influence there as I have. She can use the paper. One down. Now let's bomb amsterdam, the capital of patronising selfcongratulating morally superior gutmenschen and everything is fine again and me and my black-friends are going to have a fun celebration.
Turns out to be a whole lot of nothing. The women who threatened with a UN resolution has no serious function in the UN and has as much influence there as I have. She can use the paper. One down. Now let's bomb amsterdam, the capital of patronising selfcongratulating morally superior gutmenschen and everything is fine again and me and my black-friends are going to have a fun celebration.
Originally Posted by Tiaexz:
Heh. Got to thank the UN though, their outrage 'return to slavery' only got them a big middle finger from the black community, general consensus being 'it's our party as well'. So thx UN for threatining with a resolution, and gutmensch for being clueless of how people should think, you made it an even better place to live, and you look like even bigger idiots.X frags
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