Gypsies purchased a 5 year old to exploit as a dancing attraction

[Myth]

I'm pretty sure this has to do with the "pale, blue-eyed" thing that darker-toned peoples seem to have. It's very well documented, you see it in the Iliad with Achilleus, in the Muslim Rulers of North Africa who got their sons on Frankish slaves, and inn the North American tribes who tended to snatch blond girls during raids. That the Roma were won't to do this in times gone past is well known, and not worth arguing. It appears in this case that the trade was internal, though.

It seems likely this child was not treated much worse than her "siblings", it's just that this Roma couple are terrible parents - but then by the looks of it so was her birth mother.

And good luck integrating them, we can't even do that here where most of them actually go to school, and even university these days.

She made 80-100 euro per day from begging. This is definitely not good parenting. The mother turned out to be from Bulgaria and she recgnized her child, so I'm not sure how the "man from Scandinavia"fits in with the story. But the news site I'm getting this from also said that the kids in Ireland turend out to be the biological children of the family in question, so I'm not sure what to beleive.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Stereotype alert: that would only serve to make her look more Scottish? Naturally red hair is a very much rarer mutation than blond hair, and due to this relative rarity only a few cultures fully appreciate the sensitivity of the issue:


Of course plenty of cultures have a tradition of dying hair, though.

Blond hair and fair skin are fairly common features from basically everything to the west of Mongolia and north of Africa.

[HoreTore]

So, it turned out that this child was simply a "victim" of an informal adoption procedure. While we Europeans always take pride in our ability to regulate ourselves to death, we need to remember that adoption agencies are a new thing, and leaving kids with friends is the usual way of doing things.

To conclude: Innocent Roma, racist media and society. OP and thread title is also hilarious now.

For a comparison to this situation:

The Greek state places hundreds of Roma children under their protection and responsibility in an orphanage. How did the Greek state protect them? By selling them to traffickers, noted in their (now "mysteriously" disappeared) report to the European Commission, reporting prices of up to 500 euros.

Yes, clearly the Greeks are more capable of caring for children than Roma parents or foster parents.

[Fragony]

Naive looks so good on you

[HoreTore]

Naive looks so good on you

Are you going to link pictures of bling now?

[Andres]

Naive looks so good on you

So, if the truth doesn't match with what you believe to be true, you dismiss the truth and keep believing what's not true?

Because Fragony made up his mind about gypsies, the thread title is the truth, even when, in reality, it isn't?

[Andres]

Are you going to link pictures of bling now?

I guess for some, these gypsies not turning out to be the evil child traffickers they accused them to be, is an inconvenient truth.

[Fragony]

Are you going to link pictures of bling now?

No I am going to post a pic of a lot of kittens.
https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v...ps77969b7c.jpg

Awwwww

[Skullheadhq]

So, it turned out that this child was simply a "victim" of an informal adoption procedure. While we Europeans always take pride in our ability to regulate ourselves to death, we need to remember that adoption agencies are a new thing, and leaving kids with friends is the usual way of doing things.

To conclude: Innocent Roma, racist media and society. OP and thread title is also hilarious now.

Selling your children as chattel is your idea of informal adoption?

Oh yes, blame racist media.

[Brenus]

"Selling your children as chattel is your idea of informal adoption?" True. We just pay the lawyers fees and running cost and compensate the family... Makes a LOT of difference.
And there is not proof (I know, I am very demanding) that any money was giving in the Roma Child problem. All was built on prejudices and racism.

Yes, the media were racist, and people telling than Roma couldn't have blond and blue eyes kids are racist, proofs by DNA.

[HoreTore]

Selling your children as chattel is your idea of informal adoption?

Oh yes, blame racist media.

Nah, that's the Greek way of doing things. I didn't state it explicitly, but I think it was implied that I didn't approve of that way of doing things.

[Kralizec]

So, it turned out that this child was simply a "victim" of an informal adoption procedure. While we Europeans always take pride in our ability to regulate ourselves to death, we need to remember that adoption agencies are a new thing, and leaving kids with friends is the usual way of doing things.

To conclude: Innocent Roma, racist media and society. OP and thread title is also hilarious now.

"Selling your children as chattel is your idea of informal adoption?" True. We just pay the lawyers fees and running cost and compensate the family... Makes a LOT of difference.

Excuse me: WTF?

Adoption is heavily regulated for good reasons. And the standards expected of people who want to adopt are a lot heavier than those expected from biological parents (i.e. the threshold before child protection agencies bust your door)

From what I've read the defense story sounds more like they were acting as guardians in place of the real parents - but there are rules for that, also.

If their story is true it might be reason enough to charge them with a lesser offense or maybe not charge them at all. But what they did was certainly not okay.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

The very best that can be said is that this is the Roma acting as though they are outside the law, and then using the "adopted" child to make money. Maybe they do that with their own children and think that's ok.

I don't care - the child is better off where she is than where she was.

[HoreTore]

Excuse me: WTF?

Adoption is heavily regulated for good reasons. And the standards expected of people who want to adopt are a lot heavier than those expected from biological parents (i.e. the threshold before child protection agencies bust your door)

From what I've read the defense story sounds more like they were acting as guardians in place of the real parents - but there are rules for that, also.

If their story is true it might be reason enough to charge them with a lesser offense or maybe not charge them at all. But what they did was certainly not okay.

Yes, I fully support our behemoth government administration, and believe that every aspect of our lives should be scrutinized by the government. I am a socialist, after all.

Still, I cannot get all worked up over people reverting to less formal ways of doing things. It's been the norm until very recently, after all. I only need to go back to my grandmother to find examples of the same practice. Had I been from the north, I wouldn't even have to go back further than the post-war years. Parents got lost at sea, the children were taken care of by friends, without bothering to involve any authorities.

[HoreTore]

The very best that can be said is that this is the Roma acting as though they are outside the law, and then using the "adopted" child to make money. Maybe they do that with their own children and think that's ok.

I don't care - the child is better off where she is than where she was.

So we should take all Roma children living away from their parents, eh? Sounds like a brilliant plan, if only we hadn't done that already and ended up with a buttload of abuse....

Or should we only take the good-looking blondes away?

[Kralizec]

Legal parents (and guardians) have their rights when we're talking about their kids.

Crucial point is that these two people are neither parents or guardians in the legal sense. The decision of what to do with the child can be based entirely on what's best for her, without worrying about what the two "adoptive parents" think.

And yes, the girl is better off away from these two. For one thing, good parents usually don't violate the law so boldly.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

So we should take all Roma children living away from their parents, eh? Sounds like a brilliant plan, if only we hadn't done that already and ended up with a buttload of abuse....

Or should we only take the good-looking blondes away?

This child was abandoned by her mother.

The other pale girl could even be her twin - I'd bet she was sold for money, because her parents are living in a slum.

I'm ok with Travellers, if they want to look down on "Country" people, marry within their own tribes... Fine. However, they need to abide by the same laws as the rest of us. Doubtless this women didn't want to put the girl up for adoption because she was more likely to be picked up by a non-Roma couple, so she sold her daughter to a pair of Roma who, frankly, don't even appear to be able to look after themselves.

That's abuse at a fundamental level - the child needs to be taken into care, sent to school.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Had I been from the north, I wouldn't even have to go back further than the post-war years. Parents got lost at sea, the children were taken care of by friends, without bothering to involve any authorities.

Northern Norway must be more progressive than where I come from. There are farming families where, in the last two generations, it's believe that girl and boy children were swapped. It's a big problem because some of these people aren't sure who they're related to.

[HoreTore]

Legal parents (and guardians) have their rights when we're talking about their kids.

Yup, and it was the legal parent who decided that the child would be better off with them.

I really don't see much of a problem here, apart from a technical issue.

[HoreTore]

This child was abandoned by her mother.

The other pale girl could even be her twin - I'd bet she was sold for money, because her parents are living in a slum.

I'm ok with Travellers, if they want to look down on "Country" people, marry within their own tribes... Fine. However, they need to abide by the same laws as the rest of us. Doubtless this women didn't want to put the girl up for adoption because she was more likely to be picked up by a non-Roma couple, so she sold her daughter to a pair of Roma who, frankly, don't even appear to be able to look after themselves.

That's abuse at a fundamental level - the child needs to be taken into care, sent to school.

Where, exactly, do you get the "money changed hands"-thing from? Anything besides prejudice?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Yup, and it was the legal parent who decided that the child would be better off with them.

I really don't see much of a problem here, apart from a technical issue.

What about the begging and belly dancing?

Where, exactly, do you get the "money changed hands"-thing from? Anything besides prejudice?

the fact that these are the kind of Roma who make money by getting their children to beg?

They used the girl as a commodity, and selling children in tribal cultures (or medieval ones) is more common than simply giving them away. The passing of the child from the birth parent to the adoptive one is a transaction.

[HoreTore]

What about the begging and belly dancing?

....And this would not have happen with her birth parents?

the fact that these are the kind of Roma who make money by getting their children to beg?

They used the girl as a commodity, and selling children in tribal cultures (or medieval ones) is more common than simply giving them away. The passing of the child from the birth parent to the adoptive one is a transaction.

So... You base your judgement on an individual case on the cultural traits of a group. That's called prejudice, good sir

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

....And this would not have happen with her birth parents?

Probably - but as they're the birth parents I'd be slightly more hesitant to take the child into care - but in every photo the "adoptive" parents have released, the child looks miserable.

So... You base your judgement on an individual case on the cultural traits of a group. That's called prejudice, good sir

I base it on the same kind of knowledge that tells me that impure iron will make a brittle blade - centuries of documented experience. I do not say all Roma are like this, not at all, but pretending there isn't a sub-group is like pretending there are no football hooligans.

[HoreTore]

Probably - but as they're the birth parents I'd be slightly more hesitant to take the child into care - but in every photo the "adoptive" parents have released, the child looks miserable.

Why is that? Isn't the child what matters?

And poor people usually look miserable... But I don't think you're suggesting that the state should take the children from poor families.

I base it on the same kind of knowledge that tells me that impure iron will make a brittle blade - centuries of documented experience. I do not say all Roma are like this, not at all, but pretending there isn't a sub-group is like pretending there are no football hooligans.

What's documented throughout the centuries is a wealth of hatred, fear and lies about Europe's definite pariahs.

Is it impossible that she was sold? Nope. Is it impossible that she was handed over freely because the mother believed it was in her best interest, without any fee? Nope.

I hestitate to conclude on either until we have the facts, and I stick by the innocent until proven guilty-thing.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Germany had an office opened in Munich to keep track of Roma -- I.D., figerprints, etc.

In Germany, Roma were specifically barred from public pools, parks and recreational areas.

Two years later, the Roma were placed under travel restrictions and were legally arrestable -- without evidence of crime -- as a means of crime prevention.


The Punch line? The Munich office was opened in 1899 under the 1st Reich. The public service restriction was enacted under the Weimar republic in 1926 as was the arbitrary arrest law a few years later....years before "Wolf" and his pack of sick-tards took power.


Apparently, Roma-hating has been a hobby for some time.


Doesn't excuse thrashing child labor laws and the like or failing to follow accepted norms for adoption/fosterage, but I can see why Hortore and others might assume that the media/numerous folks are taking the "easy route" without double-checking their facts.

The US media has already dropped the story for the most part.

[Papewaio]

So has the EU evolved or is it external factions that have created "peace in our time"?...

[Brenus]

“Excuse me: WTF?” : Never heard of lawyers agencies specialised in adoption? You pay a fee, and they provide a child. And in the fees are including various costs as maintenance of the mother willing to give/give to adoption her child during her pregnancy. These agencies are working mainly in Asia and South America, but new branch opened in East Europe. It looks that they open in Greece…

So, again, Roma are selling and buying their kids when us, we pay fee and support the mother. It is just question of vocabulary, isn’t it?

“Adoption is heavily regulated for good reasons”: Good reason indeed, but it failed. It happened that one of my best friends was in charge in France for the Child Protection for all Brittany. The blond and blue eyes children from East Europe were the must you must have and the richest legally adopted them following the heavy regulations. Then, as matter of fact, the populations putting their children in adoption are not the brightest, nor the healthiest. Then, the blue eyes and blond children, not raising up to the level the wealthy parents had expecting them to reach, faced a life of abuses and other tortures. The level of failure is not public as it will put the notability and the leaders under scrutiny. And because these parents are part of the ruling class, not investigations and no questions conducted or asked, except in case of really blatant facts and tragedies.

“I don't care - the child is better off where she is than where she was.” Obviously you don’t care. Perhaps it will be a good time to think how to improve the situation structurally instead. How to do you know if the little girl will be better?

“What about the begging and belly dancing?” Is it coming from the same sources than the “blond” kidnapped by Roma?
As “belly dancing”, my grand-daughter (7 years old) does it always, because she can’t really dance with her bum and she is lacking of the other female attributes, which is normal at this age.
As the begging, perhaps if jobs were available to these populations they won’t have to beg. It looks to me you have the same thinking process than the US Confederate Slavers arguing that the Blacks were uneducated (forgetting that educating Blacks was punished by death for the slave and jail for the teacher), dirty (forgetting that the owner was providing the living conditions) and filthy (forgetting that the owners provided minimum health provision).
You can’t blame a population to be as you want them to be in putting them in squalors conditions.

“but in every photo the "adoptive" parents have released, the child looks miserable.” You having a laugh, have you? If I accuse you in front of the entire world to be a child abuser, kidnapper and scum of the Earth, then I take picture of you, how to you think you will look like? That is one of your worst comment in this debate.

And to be sure we speak of the same things:

[Fragony]

Maybe if they had jobs lol, they have jobs, begging and stealing

[Brenus]

What left to them, what they are allowed to do. Racists have always the same circular reason. Good same story, like the Jews were cowards so they were not allowed to join the Army because they were cowards...

[Fragony]

What left to them, what they are allowed to do. Racists have always the same circular reason. Good same story, like the Jews were cowards so they were not allowed to join the Army because they were cowards...

They can work in our greenhouses the day they want to, they can go to school for free. They choose to live like this. Gypsies are a plague everywhere they settle, why do you think they are always on the move, at a certain point people are getting really annoyed.