Results 1 to 19 of 19

Thread: Swiss bankier arrested in Italy

  1. #1
    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Norway
    Posts
    12,014

    Default Swiss bankier arrested in Italy

    Raoul Weil, a former UBS bankier responsible for the banks overseas accounts, has been arrested by the police for his role in helping american customers avoid taxes.

    Thoughts?
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  2. #2
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    The EUSSR
    Posts
    30,680

    Default Re: Swiss bankier arrested in Italy

    Not familiar with the specifics but avoiding tax isn't a crime, we have several constructions here in the Netherlands that make it possible. Tax-evation isn't the same thing as fraud. Gutmensch Bono and multinationals evade taxes here in the Netherlands, and our oh so beloved royal family evades taxes with a construction on the Kaiman islands. It isn't strictly illegal to avoid taxes. Tax-fraud is something else but it doesn't look like that at first glance

  3. #3
    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Norway
    Posts
    12,014

    Default Re: Swiss bankier arrested in Italy

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    Not familiar with the specifics but avoiding tax isn't a crime, we have several constructions here in the Netherlands that make it possible. Tax-evation isn't the same thing as fraud. Gutmensch Bono and multinationals evade taxes here in the Netherlands, and our oh so beloved royal family evades taxes with a construction on the Kaiman islands. It isn't strictly illegal to avoid taxes. Tax-fraud is something else but it doesn't look like that at first glance
    There's a difference between exploiting loopholes while following the letter of the law, and going beyond that.

    Since he's charged by the police, he's suspected of being in the latter category.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  4. #4
    Liar and Trickster Senior Member Andres's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    In my own skin.
    Posts
    13,208

    Default Re: Swiss bankier arrested in Italy

    Is he guilty until proven innocent or is it the other way around?

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore View Post
    There's a difference between exploiting loopholes while following the letter of the law, and going beyond that.
    In tax law, the line between a creative but perfectly legal construction and fraud can be very blurry.

    The fact that some legislators themselves don't understand the complicated tax laws they created themselves is best demonstrated by the existence of "anti abuse laws/regulations/measures" which basically come down to "ok, we made this law and there are probably loopholes in it, but we don't know how creative those damn fiscal experts are going to be, so we just implement a general "anti abuse regulation" that we can then (ab)use to cover up for our own sloppy legislative work".

    Of course, such anti abuse measures are contested as well.

    Tax law and fiscal expertise are very fascinating.
    Andres is our Lord and Master and could strike us down with thunderbolts or beer cans at any time. ~Askthepizzaguy

    Ja mata, TosaInu

    Member thankful for this post:



  5. #5
    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Albion
    Posts
    15,924
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default Re: Swiss bankier arrested in Italy

    I like the one Starbucks did where they buy coffee from one of their owned companies in Switzerland for three times the wholesale cost for England, then say they are not making a profit, therefore, not liable to pay taxes.

    Obviously, you would think "Would they go bankrupt?" the fact the debt is continuously forgiven by the Swiss company prevents that from happening, plus they own the Swiss company so the management still gets the profits.
    Last edited by Beskar; 10-22-2013 at 15:05.
    Days since the Apocalypse began
    "We are living in space-age times but there's too many of us thinking with stone-age minds" | How to spot a Humanist
    "Men of Quality do not fear Equality." | "Belief doesn't change facts. Facts, if you are reasonable, should change your beliefs."

  6. #6
    A Member Member Conradus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Going to the land where men walk without footprints.
    Posts
    948

    Default Re: Swiss bankier arrested in Italy

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiaexz View Post
    I like the one Starbucks did where they buy coffee from one of their owned companies in Switzerland for three times the wholesale cost for England, then say they are not making a profit, therefore, not liable to pay taxes.

    Obviously, you would think "Would they go bankrupt?" the fact the debt is continuously forgiven by the Swiss company prevents that from happening, plus they own the Swiss company so the management still gets the profits.
    Shouldn't work in any decent accounting system since debts that are forgiven count as profit. Besides, as long as it's taxed in Switzerland, you shouldn't care.

    Member thankful for this post:



  7. #7
    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Albion
    Posts
    15,924
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default Re: Swiss bankier arrested in Italy

    Quote Originally Posted by Conradus View Post
    Shouldn't work in any decent accounting system since debts that are forgiven count as profit. Besides, as long as it's taxed in Switzerland, you shouldn't care.
    So a company makes over 3 billion in the UK, should not have to pay any tax?

    Obviously I should care, they are exploiting the system. Everyone else has to pay tax, why should multi-nationals be excluded?

    Article on it here

    The 'tax forgiven' was a different loophole used by celebrities such as actors, football players, etc.
    The scheme is understood to work by UK earners "quitting" their job and signing new employment contracts with offshore shell companies. Those companies then "rehire" their new employee back out to the UK but take their earnings. The offshore company then pays their employee a much lower salary but also "loans" them thousands a month. However these loans can be written down as tax liabilities, and so reducing the overall bill to the government.
    Last edited by Beskar; 10-22-2013 at 16:09.
    Days since the Apocalypse began
    "We are living in space-age times but there's too many of us thinking with stone-age minds" | How to spot a Humanist
    "Men of Quality do not fear Equality." | "Belief doesn't change facts. Facts, if you are reasonable, should change your beliefs."

  8. #8
    Liar and Trickster Senior Member Andres's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    In my own skin.
    Posts
    13,208

    Default Re: Swiss bankier arrested in Italy

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiaexz View Post
    So a company makes over 3 billion in the UK, should not have to pay any tax?

    Obviously I should care, they are exploiting the system.
    Are those 3 billion profits or not?

    If they have 4 billion in costs, then obviously, they don't need to pay taxes, since they are not making profit.

    If the Swiss company makes profit, then that company will have to pay taxes.

    "The debt is forgiven" is rather vague and I'm sure it's much more complicated than that. There are plenty of constructions a multinational can use to make sure the biggest chunk of the income of your group is taxed in the right country (read, the country that's most beneficial for you) and most of them are perfectly legal.

    Of course, from a moral point of view, there's much to say about the unfairness of it all, but that doesn't mean it's illegal.
    Last edited by Andres; 10-22-2013 at 16:02.
    Andres is our Lord and Master and could strike us down with thunderbolts or beer cans at any time. ~Askthepizzaguy

    Ja mata, TosaInu

  9. #9
    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Albion
    Posts
    15,924
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default Re: Swiss bankier arrested in Italy

    Quote Originally Posted by Andres View Post
    Of course, from a moral point of view, there's much to say about the unfairness of it all, but that doesn't mean it's illegal.
    Taken from the article:
    - Starbucks UK reported losses so did not have to pay corporation tax, but told investors that it was "profitable".
    - It said the coffee giant had reported losses in each of the last five years and therefore did not have to pay any corporation tax, yet executives told analysts that the UK business was "successful", "profitable" and they were "very pleased with the performance".
    - It identified payments between companies within the group as a factor in reducing its taxable income in the UK.

    They are purposefully exploiting the tax system. Whilst 'Tax Avoidance' isn't strictly illegal, by common-sense, not being able to see them fleece the system is naive.

    Good way to counter it would be a 10% of all sale transactions. They would start doing their paperwork correctly then to pay their due to avoid a massive loss.
    Last edited by Beskar; 10-22-2013 at 16:06.
    Days since the Apocalypse began
    "We are living in space-age times but there's too many of us thinking with stone-age minds" | How to spot a Humanist
    "Men of Quality do not fear Equality." | "Belief doesn't change facts. Facts, if you are reasonable, should change your beliefs."

  10. #10
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Latibulm mali regis in muris.
    Posts
    11,300

    Default Re: Swiss bankier arrested in Italy

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiaexz View Post
    Taken from the article:
    - Starbucks UK reported losses so did not have to pay corporation tax, but told investors that it was "profitable".
    - It said the coffee giant had reported losses in each of the last five years and therefore did not have to pay any corporation tax, yet executives told analysts that the UK business was "successful", "profitable" and they were "very pleased with the performance".
    - It identified payments between companies within the group as a factor in reducing its taxable income in the UK.

    They are purposefully exploiting the tax system. Whilst 'Tax Avoidance' isn't strictly illegal, by common-sense, not being able to see them fleece the system is naive.

    Good way to counter it would be a 10% of all sale transactions. They would start doing their paperwork correctly then to pay their due to avoid a massive loss.
    Why don't you just stroke a check to the UK exchequer? Save the step of having Starbucks collect the tax on your behalf and pass it to the government.

    You do realize who actually pays "corporate" taxes, do you not?
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." -- H. L. Mencken

  11. #11
    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Albion
    Posts
    15,924
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default Re: Swiss bankier arrested in Italy

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    You do realize who actually pays "corporate" taxes, do you not?
    Corporations? The clue is in the name.

    Should corporations be able to function as independent institutions completely free from the objections that bind the common-man, exploiting society and institute their own separate system which is frees itself from their obligations under the guise 'not being really there'.

    I am not actually being obtuse, I understand you are trying to say it is an indirect tax on the people, but that wearing blinkers to the situation. When you have economic-institutions completely side-stepping society and only acting like a financial drain to no benefit, maybe you will start to realise they are no better than a parasite.

    Means-of-Production should serve society opposed to exploiting it.

    Whilst there are cases where the 'right thing' does happen, there is a great many which do not and these should be cracked down upon. Because, who is the tax avoidance serving? It isn't the consumer, it goes straight into the pockets of CEOs and Shareholders living it up at our expense.
    Last edited by Beskar; 10-22-2013 at 17:24.
    Days since the Apocalypse began
    "We are living in space-age times but there's too many of us thinking with stone-age minds" | How to spot a Humanist
    "Men of Quality do not fear Equality." | "Belief doesn't change facts. Facts, if you are reasonable, should change your beliefs."

    Member thankful for this post:



  12. #12

    Default Re: Swiss bankier arrested in Italy

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    Not familiar with the specifics but avoiding tax isn't a crime,
    Ask Al Capone about that one.
    Tho' I've belted you an' flayed you,
    By the livin' Gawd that made you,
    You're a better man than I am, Gunga Din!
    Quote Originally Posted by North Korea
    It is our military's traditional response to quell provocative actions with a merciless thunderbolt.

    Member thankful for this post:



  13. #13
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Latibulm mali regis in muris.
    Posts
    11,300

    Default Re: Swiss bankier arrested in Italy

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiaexz View Post
    Corporations? The clue is in the name.

    Should corporations be able to function as independent institutions completely free from the objections that bind the common-man, exploiting society and institute their own separate system which is frees itself from their obligations under the guise 'not being really there'.

    I am not actually being obtuse, I understand you are trying to say it is an indirect tax on the people, but that wearing blinkers to the situation. When you have economic-institutions completely side-stepping society and only acting like a financial drain to no benefit, maybe you will start to realise they are no better than a parasite.

    Means-of-Production should serve society opposed to exploiting it.

    Whilst there are cases where the 'right thing' does happen, there is a great many which do not and these should be cracked down upon. Because, who is the tax avoidance serving? It isn't the consumer, it goes straight into the pockets of CEOs and Shareholders living it up at our expense.
    I think corporate taxes are silly, because they're simply passed on to the consumer. That tax burden is, ultimately if not easily recognizably, always passed to the "little gal." Ultimately, the individuals in a polity shoulder the tax burden for that polity. To me, it therefore seems more of a political tool, since the government is (tacitly if not explicitly) hiding some of what it is extracting from its residents and citizens in the guise of consumer prices. I'd love to see everybody nice and aware of the tax burden they shoulder.

    That said, I am not going to tell you that the "invisible hand" is a perfect tool for guidance. It may work well with prices and the like, but we tend to find out about manufacturers and others cutting corners only After the water table has been poisoned or the waste dump starts to leak, or the smog starts doing damage. Obviously, the general welfare does require regulation that prevents such, just as the government must establish and enforce standards that minimize or prevent fraud. Most corporate "citizens" are honorable, but by no means all. Regulation, enforcement and punishment must also play their role.

    Via my retirement accounts, I AM a shareholder. The point of being a shareholder is to let them use your money to fund their operations and improve them and thereby make you more money. Assuming the organization in which I am investing is ethical, I have little problem with that. I employ a financial advisor to assist in my investment choices and to spread out those investments enough so that an as yet undiscovered "Enron" cannot wreck my finances. I, like a large majority of "shareholders," am not living it up at anyone's expense.

    CEO overpaid? Probably true of a number of organizations. Their shareholders should be quick to oust them if their compensation is out of line -- though that requires an investor to actually put in a little effort.
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." -- H. L. Mencken

  14. #14
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    The EUSSR
    Posts
    30,680

    Default Re: Swiss bankier arrested in Italy

    Quote Originally Posted by Veho Nex View Post
    Ask Al Capone about that one.
    Al Capone is an absolute sissy compared to the Dutch royal family and their Bilderberg group

  15. #15
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Latibulm mali regis in muris.
    Posts
    11,300

    Default Re: Swiss bankier arrested in Italy

    Capone was a syphy, but never a sissy.

    His ability to commit crime and acquire plunder does pale in comparison with almost any of the royal families of Europe -- Capone is small potatoes at that level.

    For that matter in his own milieu, Luciano and Lansky headed the syndicate for a reason -- and Lansky was easily the sharpest of the lot.
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." -- H. L. Mencken

  16. #16

    Default Re: Swiss bankier arrested in Italy

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh
    CEO overpaid? Probably true of a number of organizations. Their shareholders should be quick to oust them if their compensation is out of line -- though that requires an investor to actually put in a little effort.
    Speaking of tangled webs: this rarely happens, because important shareholders in many corporations are executives in others, and vice-versa. They all have an incentive to keep each other highly-paid.

    Small investors like (I assume) you tend not to have much clout (though they do seem to be organizing in reaction/protest more nowadays). Of course top executives frequently are removed, to appease angry hordes of small investors or the market at large - but since most of these people are all in bed with each other, they just get shuffled around to the next corporation, with a new office. This also explains how so many CEOs (everyone's favorite exec to discuss) can not only get away with progressively worsening performance, but be rewarded for it. Though I doubt even a Steve Jobs should get compensation to the tune of 300X the average salary of non-execs, especially given that for the longest time the normal ratio was not even 50:1...
    Last edited by Montmorency; 10-22-2013 at 21:55.
    Vitiate Man.

    History repeats the old conceits
    The glib replies, the same defeats


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

  17. #17
    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Isca
    Posts
    13,477

    Default Re: Swiss bankier arrested in Italy

    That's an interesting chart - it shows a relatively modest rise until 1980, by 1985 the upwards path rises sharple, peaking in 200 before dropping down again, but still at idiotic levels.
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."

    [IMG]https://img197.imageshack.us/img197/4917/logoromans23pd.jpg[/IMG]

  18. #18
    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Norway
    Posts
    12,014

    Default Re: Swiss bankier arrested in Italy

    Quote Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla View Post
    That's an interesting chart - it shows a relatively modest rise until 1980, by 1985 the upwards path rises sharple, peaking in 200 before dropping down again, but still at idiotic levels.
    A direct result of Tatcherism.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  19. #19
    Master of useless knowledge Senior Member Kitten Shooting Champion, Eskiv Champion Ironside's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    4,902

    Default Re: Swiss bankier arrested in Italy

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    I think corporate taxes are silly, because they're simply passed on to the consumer. That tax burden is, ultimately if not easily recognizably, always passed to the "little gal." Ultimately, the individuals in a polity shoulder the tax burden for that polity. To me, it therefore seems more of a political tool, since the government is (tacitly if not explicitly) hiding some of what it is extracting from its residents and citizens in the guise of consumer prices. I'd love to see everybody nice and aware of the tax burden they shoulder.
    That's a fallacy. In the first stage, it implies that a non-taxed company would be nice and not already go for maximum profitabillity. Any price hike due to (non-VAT) taxes is an attempt to increase prices with the hope that the costumers will accept it. But since the consumer tax cuts into the company profits, the company would still be profitable, even with the new taxes. VAT works diffferently and is an explicit consumer tax, so they behave diffferently, even if they also work a bit as a profit tax.

    In the second stage, a company that sends out their profits out of the country are de facto already taxing their costumers in the worst possible way (the "profit tax" gives nothing back to the consumer), so any company tax would actually give a higher return to the "little gal". While certainly not always the case, it does contradict your statement, implying more complexity.

    The origin of company taxes are probably that there's a bucketload of money there, but I also suspect they help against "accumulation of wealth" (think chip leader in poker), that stifles the smaller players.
    We are all aware that the senses can be deceived, the eyes fooled. But how can we be sure our senses are not being deceived at any particular time, or even all the time? Might I just be a brain in a tank somewhere, tricked all my life into believing in the events of this world by some insane computer? And does my life gain or lose meaning based on my reaction to such solipsism?

    Project PYRRHO, Specimen 46, Vat 7
    Activity Recorded M.Y. 2302.22467
    TERMINATION OF SPECIMEN ADVISED

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO