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  1. #1
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Swiss bankier arrested in Italy

    Not familiar with the specifics but avoiding tax isn't a crime, we have several constructions here in the Netherlands that make it possible. Tax-evation isn't the same thing as fraud. Gutmensch Bono and multinationals evade taxes here in the Netherlands, and our oh so beloved royal family evades taxes with a construction on the Kaiman islands. It isn't strictly illegal to avoid taxes. Tax-fraud is something else but it doesn't look like that at first glance

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    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: Swiss bankier arrested in Italy

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    Not familiar with the specifics but avoiding tax isn't a crime, we have several constructions here in the Netherlands that make it possible. Tax-evation isn't the same thing as fraud. Gutmensch Bono and multinationals evade taxes here in the Netherlands, and our oh so beloved royal family evades taxes with a construction on the Kaiman islands. It isn't strictly illegal to avoid taxes. Tax-fraud is something else but it doesn't look like that at first glance
    There's a difference between exploiting loopholes while following the letter of the law, and going beyond that.

    Since he's charged by the police, he's suspected of being in the latter category.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

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    Liar and Trickster Senior Member Andres's Avatar
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    Default Re: Swiss bankier arrested in Italy

    Is he guilty until proven innocent or is it the other way around?

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore View Post
    There's a difference between exploiting loopholes while following the letter of the law, and going beyond that.
    In tax law, the line between a creative but perfectly legal construction and fraud can be very blurry.

    The fact that some legislators themselves don't understand the complicated tax laws they created themselves is best demonstrated by the existence of "anti abuse laws/regulations/measures" which basically come down to "ok, we made this law and there are probably loopholes in it, but we don't know how creative those damn fiscal experts are going to be, so we just implement a general "anti abuse regulation" that we can then (ab)use to cover up for our own sloppy legislative work".

    Of course, such anti abuse measures are contested as well.

    Tax law and fiscal expertise are very fascinating.
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    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Swiss bankier arrested in Italy

    I like the one Starbucks did where they buy coffee from one of their owned companies in Switzerland for three times the wholesale cost for England, then say they are not making a profit, therefore, not liable to pay taxes.

    Obviously, you would think "Would they go bankrupt?" the fact the debt is continuously forgiven by the Swiss company prevents that from happening, plus they own the Swiss company so the management still gets the profits.
    Last edited by Beskar; 10-22-2013 at 15:05.
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    A Member Member Conradus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Swiss bankier arrested in Italy

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiaexz View Post
    I like the one Starbucks did where they buy coffee from one of their owned companies in Switzerland for three times the wholesale cost for England, then say they are not making a profit, therefore, not liable to pay taxes.

    Obviously, you would think "Would they go bankrupt?" the fact the debt is continuously forgiven by the Swiss company prevents that from happening, plus they own the Swiss company so the management still gets the profits.
    Shouldn't work in any decent accounting system since debts that are forgiven count as profit. Besides, as long as it's taxed in Switzerland, you shouldn't care.

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    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Swiss bankier arrested in Italy

    Quote Originally Posted by Conradus View Post
    Shouldn't work in any decent accounting system since debts that are forgiven count as profit. Besides, as long as it's taxed in Switzerland, you shouldn't care.
    So a company makes over 3 billion in the UK, should not have to pay any tax?

    Obviously I should care, they are exploiting the system. Everyone else has to pay tax, why should multi-nationals be excluded?

    Article on it here

    The 'tax forgiven' was a different loophole used by celebrities such as actors, football players, etc.
    The scheme is understood to work by UK earners "quitting" their job and signing new employment contracts with offshore shell companies. Those companies then "rehire" their new employee back out to the UK but take their earnings. The offshore company then pays their employee a much lower salary but also "loans" them thousands a month. However these loans can be written down as tax liabilities, and so reducing the overall bill to the government.
    Last edited by Beskar; 10-22-2013 at 16:09.
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    Liar and Trickster Senior Member Andres's Avatar
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    Default Re: Swiss bankier arrested in Italy

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiaexz View Post
    So a company makes over 3 billion in the UK, should not have to pay any tax?

    Obviously I should care, they are exploiting the system.
    Are those 3 billion profits or not?

    If they have 4 billion in costs, then obviously, they don't need to pay taxes, since they are not making profit.

    If the Swiss company makes profit, then that company will have to pay taxes.

    "The debt is forgiven" is rather vague and I'm sure it's much more complicated than that. There are plenty of constructions a multinational can use to make sure the biggest chunk of the income of your group is taxed in the right country (read, the country that's most beneficial for you) and most of them are perfectly legal.

    Of course, from a moral point of view, there's much to say about the unfairness of it all, but that doesn't mean it's illegal.
    Last edited by Andres; 10-22-2013 at 16:02.
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    Default Re: Swiss bankier arrested in Italy

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    Not familiar with the specifics but avoiding tax isn't a crime,
    Ask Al Capone about that one.
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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Swiss bankier arrested in Italy

    Quote Originally Posted by Veho Nex View Post
    Ask Al Capone about that one.
    Al Capone is an absolute sissy compared to the Dutch royal family and their Bilderberg group

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    Default Re: Swiss bankier arrested in Italy

    Capone was a syphy, but never a sissy.

    His ability to commit crime and acquire plunder does pale in comparison with almost any of the royal families of Europe -- Capone is small potatoes at that level.

    For that matter in his own milieu, Luciano and Lansky headed the syndicate for a reason -- and Lansky was easily the sharpest of the lot.
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  11. #11

    Default Re: Swiss bankier arrested in Italy

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh
    CEO overpaid? Probably true of a number of organizations. Their shareholders should be quick to oust them if their compensation is out of line -- though that requires an investor to actually put in a little effort.
    Speaking of tangled webs: this rarely happens, because important shareholders in many corporations are executives in others, and vice-versa. They all have an incentive to keep each other highly-paid.

    Small investors like (I assume) you tend not to have much clout (though they do seem to be organizing in reaction/protest more nowadays). Of course top executives frequently are removed, to appease angry hordes of small investors or the market at large - but since most of these people are all in bed with each other, they just get shuffled around to the next corporation, with a new office. This also explains how so many CEOs (everyone's favorite exec to discuss) can not only get away with progressively worsening performance, but be rewarded for it. Though I doubt even a Steve Jobs should get compensation to the tune of 300X the average salary of non-execs, especially given that for the longest time the normal ratio was not even 50:1...
    Last edited by Montmorency; 10-22-2013 at 21:55.
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  12. #12
    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Swiss bankier arrested in Italy

    That's an interesting chart - it shows a relatively modest rise until 1980, by 1985 the upwards path rises sharple, peaking in 200 before dropping down again, but still at idiotic levels.
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."

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    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: Swiss bankier arrested in Italy

    Quote Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla View Post
    That's an interesting chart - it shows a relatively modest rise until 1980, by 1985 the upwards path rises sharple, peaking in 200 before dropping down again, but still at idiotic levels.
    A direct result of Tatcherism.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

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