Iranian sanctions

[Seamus Fermanagh]

I am no longer a young man.

As a young man I was frustrated that my exceptional country -- and I was and remain an American exceptionalist -- put up with so much crap from other countries. Why didn't we just declare our interests and smack the crap out of anybody who tried to deny us their realization. After all, we were the good guys and had saved everybody's bacon twice over.

As I got older, I began to see more value in the "jaw-jaw" over "war-war." What good are sanctions when they are a pressure tactic that ends up hurting the "little guys" more than the intended target? However veiled a pressure tactic sanctions may be, they do not involve my government -- on my behalf -- shooting missiles at people and sometimes blowing up the wrong people in the process. Sanctions may end up killing some people, but not in job lots and not because somebody sneezed while working a computer mouse.

Moreover, as Pannonian eloquently stated, howevermuch you argue that terrorism and sanctions are the same in that they share the same purpose -- political influence via pressure -- there is a qualitative difference. A terrorist sees themselves as comparatively powerless, purposefully targets the innocent and undefended, and seeks to evoke change through simple horror. The whole time, however, they are aware that they will probably not achieve their political end, but revel in having hurt their evil enemy anyway. Sanctions are the choice of nation states who could use force majeure but seek to limit the horror, not distill it.

Half or more of you reading this thread and arguing on it play total war games and impose your own "house rules" limiting your own actions. Sanctions beat the hell out of pinpoint bombing attacks if you ask me, so I don't mind using that "house rule" as an option. If powerful countries like mine decided to go totally realpolitik, I don't think we'd enjoy it very much.

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

Sanctions may end up killing some people, but not in job lots and not because somebody sneezed while working a computer mouse.

The sanctions against Iraq seemed to do a pretty good job of killing Iraqis - and it's not like those kids voted for Saddam...

I think there is a qualitative difference between terrorist attacks and economic sanctions, and (for a lot of reasons) I think sanctions are not as bad as open warfare. But it's not the same as not sending your athletes to the Olympics because the hosts are jerks.

[Empire*Of*Media]

He isn't the one who is in charge. The Iranians should be our natural allies 'we' totally screwed up by not giving the green wave our support.

Can't be spammed enough http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=F48SinuEHIk

and u forgot the 1953's CIA & MI6 plot of downfall of the most and the first democratic & wise Prime Minister of all Iran's History MOHAMAD MOSADEQ that they wanted Iran somehwere like Cuba in time of Batista that made Cuba rise a great dictatorship! while in Iran its Dictatorship was/is/will be the most fearful and harshful and worse dictatorship of humankind history!! u dont know because they cover all their great crimes, u must live here then you'll know what do i say!

they


they did coupe to fall of mosadeq because he was a great obstacle for British & USA's Colonization and depleting Iranian OIL!! after mosadeq's victory over nationalizing Iranian oil Usa & Britian decided to throw mosadeq out of power and bring back SHAH to be their loyal servant again! so they did the coupe and throwed mosadeq out of power by military and intelligence coupe of Britain and USA with each other and some Iranian Mercenaries and they destroyed a pure Democracy in Iran completely for more than 100 years i think!!
so should we thank American Saviour of the mankind (as they show us in HollyWood and Speechs) and their support of their type of Democracy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Ir..._d%27%C3%A9tat

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammad_Mosaddegh

! but shah in the latest 70s shah thought he could be free of dependency from Western countries specially USA's Orders, and rised oil price and threatend USA & BRITAIN to not to give them oil and its money!!
well 5 years later from nowhere ISLAMIC fundamentalism rised and "death to shah" made a great embelm of revolution & freedom, while the people revolted, but the USA & BRITAIN's Installed taws and persons took the power. (as in history THE FIRST government that recognised ISLAMIC FUNDAMENTALISM REVOLUTION OF IRAN was USA & BRITAIN!!!!!) becaouse they feared an independent and Powerful IRAN!! --------but after some time islamists thought they can have better power without US they betrayed their leaders in the west and got the religious people's support so there could be no way for another USA's Coupe!!! and the hostage crisis did happen! so USA couldnt repeat VIETNAM!! so they just learned a great lesson from the Iranian revolution and they did not repeat their DIRECT & OBVIOUS IMPERIALISM!! (and interfere!!)

and now that was why that Emirates (i mean Dubai) Emerged and a powerful in Nato of Turkey and...Pakistan were highly & greatly improved of their Economy & Military since Iran's Revolution, due to Iranian Strategic & Servantcy Losing for Western Imperialism specially USA !

and.....Europe has got its advantages in this dark revolution, due to Buying Iran's VERY VERY cheaper Oil than in times of the Shah and even other countries !!

while we suffer from more than 2000 Executions in a year (thats in times of peace!) that Iran is on the top of all countries with its lesser population with China, The Economical inflation of 47%(!!), the highering rate of theft 7 prostitution and selling childs, highering rate of divorce becouse of jobless people and Poverty &....................................!!!

but you have your Pleasure Imperialism !! and European Governments !!

[Pannonian]

And we stopped throwing foreign governments out of power for realpolitikal reasons a while ago, or at least learned to find a humanitarian facade for it first, so there's no point in talking about the Shah - we're not going to do it again. And after Iraq 03, we've learned not to throw foreign governments out of power for humanitarian reasons as well, as we catch more crap than it's worth, so there's not point in urging us to help in that - we're not going to do it again. Whatever will be will be, and if we want something, we're not going to spend billions to do it; we're just going to make sure the people we don't like won't be getting anything from us. Sure, we've been overbearing and domineering in the past, and people resent us for it. So we're going to stop doing that, and let things drop as they will. And people who've criticised us for the former can see how they like the latter. In the case of your supposed Kurdish nation, I suppose they won't like it very much, as you're not in power, others are in power over you, and yet others who are less gentle than us are happy to take over where we're leaving things. Oh well, people are going to dislike us anyway, but not doing anything is cheaper for us.

PS. we should never have overthrown Saddam in 2003; that was imperialism pure and simple. We should have let him continue to shaft his chunk of Kurds, as was his right to do. I hope my government learns from that and never again does anything to help the Kurdish people without getting advance payment to make the action profitable. And if the Kurds can't pay - well, that's their bad luck, and they can continue under their existing governments.

[Montmorency]

PS. we should never have overthrown Saddam in 2003; that was imperialism pure and simple. We should have let him continue to shaft his chunk of Kurds, as was his right to do. I hope my government learns from that and never again does anything to help the Kurdish people without getting advance payment to make the action profitable. And if the Kurds can't pay - well, that's their bad luck, and they can continue under their existing governments.

Yeah, that's what we get for starting a war just to help the Kurds out. But in fact, by starting such wars we help everyone in the world, including those who suffer or die as a result - so the whole world should be paying us for our good deeds! But that's just what saints get; no good deed goes unrewarded.

But at least we have the humility to turn our cheeks to such affronts! Meaning, of course we'll do it again - it's only right to help a brother-in-need...

[Empire*Of*Media]

And we stopped throwing foreign governments out of power for realpolitikal reasons a while ago, or at least learned to find a humanitarian facade for it first, so there's no point in talking about the Shah - we're not going to do it again. And after Iraq 03, we've learned not to throw foreign governments out of power for humanitarian reasons as well, as we catch more crap than it's worth, so there's not point in urging us to help in that - we're not going to do it again. Whatever will be will be, and if we want something, we're not going to spend billions to do it; we're just going to make sure the people we don't like won't be getting anything from us. Sure, we've been overbearing and domineering in the past, and people resent us for it. So we're going to stop doing that, and let things drop as they will. And people who've criticised us for the former can see how they like the latter. In the case of your supposed Kurdish nation, I suppose they won't like it very much, as you're not in power, others are in power over you, and yet others who are less gentle than us are happy to take over where we're leaving things. Oh well, people are going to dislike us anyway, but not doing anything is cheaper for us.

PS. we should never have overthrown Saddam in 2003; that was imperialism pure and simple. We should have let him continue to shaft his chunk of Kurds, as was his right to do. I hope my government learns from that and never again does anything to help the Kurdish people without getting advance payment to make the action profitable. And if the Kurds can't pay - well, that's their bad luck, and they can continue under their existing governments.

well yes you cant tell about that because you dont have anything to defend even cant tell lie about it!! it was CIA & MI6 undercover plot that was revealed in history!!

but......

HUMANITARIAN?!!!!! are u kidding or joking?! so attacking a nation to make it to pieces just & ONLY FOR PLUNDERING OIL, is called humanitarian?! all those crimes they did in Abu-Ghuraib & Guantanamo Prisons was for humankind?! perhaps u call a 14-15 years old teenage boy that was beaten & tortured hardly by 3 US soldiers in 2007, a threat for US?!!! or just to make fear to the colonized nation?!!

Perhaps you want to say VIETNAM & Cambodia & Laos was for humanitarian purposes?! u mean torturing poor farmers mass killing of them by burning them in fire alive, Rap ing women and cutting ***** of the men before executing them is the way of YOUR HUMANITARIAN?!! Rwanda for humanitarian?! Kenya & Kongo for humanitarian?!

so all great Dictators mus learn from your HUMANITARIAN works so they get bigger & better power!! but i guess they cant! because they must be very very wise and have 95% of the earth's economy & money to spread lies and propaganda like in CNN and Fox or just simply HollyWood to show themselves as the saviours and angels of mankind's history!!!!


re PS. if u read history better (not just in USA's Bookstore!) u will see 2 times USA in 1980s and 90s specially in the Persian Gulf War in Kuwait war, USA promised a complete free and autonomous government for the Iraqi Kurds while they were defending from huge army advanced warfare and chemical bombs that was made by western powers such as UK & US & Germany, that dropped to poor Village civilian people and killed 320.000 instantly just with 1 time (i dont say the rest of Genocide!), betrayed them!! 2 times two times US Promised the Genocided Kurds freedom, and both 2 times Angel USA betrayed Kurds & Assyrians just because Saddam gaved US many privileges and Points and did many contracts for only US's benefits!! yes if thats called HUMANITARIAN BETRAYAL TREACHERY !! the third time was for that ONLY because the Kurdish resistance was UNDENIABLE and got too much attention after showing Chemical Genocide of Kurdish Villagers in Europe specially in Sweden, AND IRAQI OIL!!

so for the third time USA needed Kurds Alliance only for their benefits for IRAQI OIL! i mean $ !! so Angel USA did such a lot for humanitarian........Purposes !!!!

(i just remembered Dictator The Movie!! go and see the last of the DICTATOR movie by sacha baron cohen that criticize all dictators & imperialists by a funny way, specaill the ends of the movie that describes AMERICAN DEMOCRACY!!)

[Pannonian]

Well, I guess if the Kurds want their own nation state, they'll have to do it all by their lonesome self then, since outside interventions are anathema to you. Good luck taking on the Iranians, Iraqis, Turks, and whoever else currently lords it over you. I know I'll be cheering them on to keep their current borders.

[Empire*Of*Media]

Well, I guess if the Kurds want their own nation state, they'll have to do it all by their lonesome self then, since outside interventions are anathema to you. Good luck taking on the Iranians, Iraqis, Turks, and whoever else currently lords it over you. I know I'll be cheering them on to keep their current borders.

well, tell u something. i know we will be another indirect colonized nation if USA make us independent (and that is because of undeniable resistance, not because they like to, and they will do it IF there is enough benefits for them). but as the Supremecy of power of UK transfered to USA, in some years later the great power of USA will be transfered too ISRAEL! (as a man, a journalist & sociologist explained in AlJazeera English)
so it is ISRAEL that reedit the middle east map after UK! because by 2023-2050 it is Israel that will be the next SuperPower and the man of the middle east! and we have more than 450.000 Kurdish Jews in Israel! so the Free Kurdistan will be made By Israel or at least USA & Israel not US alone! and all this, is because of Benefits again because Kurdistan has much resources & benefits for them and it is a TRUSTWORTHY ALLY For westerns due to not mixing Politics with Religion or sentimentality, so freeing Kurdistan not for Humanitarian or Human Rights or anything with Positive & Goodness.

but if that would go to free a nation from Racism & Dictatorship, that the cause is THEM!! then we will not be anathema to it!! we will use the Chance as we did at fall of Saddam after 3 times of betrayal of the Westerns & USA!! (first the contract of Severe 1921 - 1970 & 80s)

AND.......i think you want to Mis-Use the word INTERVENTION FOR FREE KURDISTAN that i inflect the truth i said! because you want swerve the discussion about all those crimes they commited !! well, YOU CANT FOOL ME !!

[Rhyfelwyr]

EasternSpartakus, I think most people here will agree that overthrowing the Shah was a bad thing to do and an obvious example of imperialist policies. I don't think anybody here supports the Islamic Revolution, and most people are supportive of the Green Wave movement.

But do you not think that overthrowing Saddam was a good thing for Kurds? From what I have read, the Kurdish area of Iraq is now very peaceful and prosperous, secular, with no sectarian violence and the problems you get in other parts of Iraq.

Maybe the US did not keep promises to make an independent Kurdish state but surely Kurds are better off now than they were when Saddam was genociding them?

I'm also curious about what you think about the situation of Kurds in Syria. Perhaps they have an opportunity for greater autonomy?

[Montmorency]

the great power of USA will be transfered too ISRAEL

Israel that will be the next SuperPower

whoa wow woah, geez, i mean wow, son, that's wacked out, bro...

[Seamus Fermanagh]

The Israeli lobby is good, but they're not that good.


I read the wiki on Mosaddegh. Seems pretty clear to me that Winston was fighting a nationalization effort against BP. Hardly surprising that Winston was taking an imperial attitude to the matter. Fooled Ike into doing his bidding too. I wonder if that contributed to our attitude during the Suez crisis?

Regardless, I would remind our Kurd-o-phile that the USA was convinced by our Allies that Mosaddegh would end up beholden to the Pro-Russian party. At that point in our history we pretty well slapped around anybody who we thought we needed to slap in order to thwart the Soviets. Left us with some very odd political "partners," some of them quite unsavory.

[Empire*Of*Media]

EasternSpartakus, I think most people here will agree that overthrowing the Shah was a bad thing to do and an obvious example of imperialist policies. I don't think anybody here supports the Islamic Revolution, and most people are supportive of the Green Wave movement.

But do you not think that overthrowing Saddam was a good thing for Kurds? From what I have read, the Kurdish area of Iraq is now very peaceful and prosperous, secular, with no sectarian violence and the problems you get in other parts of Iraq.

Maybe the US did not keep promises to make an independent Kurdish state but surely Kurds are better off now than they were when Saddam was genociding them?

I'm also curious about what you think about the situation of Kurds in Syria. Perhaps they have an opportunity for greater autonomy?

i love your style of replying polietly !

but when i said i didnt support US overthrow of Saddam?! how can i choos saddam against USA?! USA is not as that bad as it was Imperialist United Kingodm Empire.

i said USA did not do that for humanitarian purposes i said they did it for their BENEFITS! i explained their huge benefits that they got / getting from Iraqi Oil & Strategy of Situation.

if it was not.....why they USA broked the contract & promise of an independent Kurdistan or at least autonomous?!! why in times of Mustafa Barzani that denial of US help against saddam made him go to USSR! and then soviets betrayed them too!

why in time of edris & Masoud Barzani in 80s US promised to help Kurds but then forgot the promise when they contracted with Saddam and many benefits so they even did not said anything about kurds?!

why before the prohibition of Iraqi Airspace for attacking kurds by saddam, USA & Britain were completely silence when Saddam dropped chemical bombs to 380.000 poor rural people ---- when Saddam ordered to wipe out 576 Villages on the map with its people in it?! why they were silence in those times ?!?! and after that it was only http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fran%C3%A7ois_Mitterrand, the first Socialist (and not USA's Installed Capitalist or Imperialist) that made pressure on the western powers to prohibit Iraqi Jet Fighter & Bombers to Attack the Border of Kurdish Cities !! SO ?! Why ?!


yes friend i believe Kurdish Syrian Resistance is powerful and faithful, they only want Peace & Freedom! Here : (Open in New Tab)








but unfortunately have too much enemies! Iran's Regime Turkey's Fascist Regime! Iraq & Bashar Assad & So called Free Army of Syria & Jebhatol Nusrah (al Qaeda!)
you see they must defend even countries!! well they are! they are defending with less manpower and equipment! but their enemies are very advanced and supported by countries they even have TANKS! but Those Brave Kurds as it was in Ancient Times, are defending with their lives as you see WOMEN TOO have joined while you dont see that in any ARAB countries or even those countries that had revolution!
they have fought with very little force and warfare, but defending HEROIC against Terrorists, Fascists, Racists, Fanatics &..........Bravely! as they have Defeated EVERY ATTACK & Invasion of them!! if this is not Faith what is it?!
but im sorry this times again USA support Racism & Fascism as they have puted PKK & Ocalan (Abdulah ojalan) in TERRORISTS LIST !!well.... the real terorists are themselves !!
i hope Great Victory For Them!
anyway.......i hope they