Military reforms?

[themilo]

Does this game have the marius reform? And if so are my troops upgraded or do I have to manually replace my armies?

[kdrakak]

It's all in the FAQ

[themilo]

Oh fantastic they kept the absolutely worst part of vanilla rome having to manually replace your armies after the marius reform, at least now I’m certain that rome 2 is better than this mod, say what you want about it but at the very least it doesn’t force me to spend 50 long boring turns replacing my entire army before I can have fun again.

[Kull]

Oh fantastic they kept the absolutely worst part of vanilla rome having to manually replace your armies after the marius reform, at least now I’m certain that rome 2 is better than this mod, say what you want about it but at the very least it doesn’t force me to spend 50 long boring turns replacing my entire army before I can have fun again.

That's what EB is all about - finding the worst elements of vanilla RTW and expanding on them! And if you think one manual reform is bad, Rome has THREE in EB! And other factions get reforms too, and even worse, the AI knows how to use them. So yes, far better that you spend your time playing R2.

[abou]

Oh fantastic they kept the absolutely worst part of vanilla rome having to manually replace your armies after the marius reform, at least now I’m certain that rome 2 is better than this mod, say what you want about it but at the very least it doesn’t force me to spend 50 long boring turns replacing my entire army before I can have fun again.

So I take it you will be quickly getting to work on a script that will replace all the units you have recruited with reformed units automatically?

Do go on.

[themilo]

So I take it you will be quickly getting to work on a script that will replace all the units you have recruited with reformed units automatically?

Do go on.

Just because I can’t fix something doesn’t invalidate my complaint, the only that would invalidate my complaint is that it’s simply impossible to mod units upgrading into better/different units.

[Ca Putt]

Eventho I've yet to see that actually happen in any mod I'd like to add a few points:

EB is all about Historical accuracy etc. having your Hastati on campaign in the forests of germania or the deserts of arabia magically transform into Marian legionaries, is just not plausible.
Reforms are changes, not simply upgrades. gameplaywise they are less upgrades than mechnics that unlock new units
Reformed units in EB are not always better than their early counterparts. Many players like to keep a few old units. For example the Camillian Triari clearly is a stronger unit than the Polybian one. It's not like the unreformed units become totally obsolete with the reform.
You don't have to "replace" all your armies. Just train new ones, Romans have enough money for that, and all others can slowly supplement their armies with new units. for example the Seleucid armoured Royal Guard, you simply add one (or two) to your royal army, they don't really replace anything. As romans you will probably have some armies with old equipment and others with new stuff. So what's the problem? Your old armies still kick butt, you just can'T retrain them anymore.
For romani the main advantage of reformed infantry is neither cost efficiency or raw strengh but availibility. While you can only train Cammilian troops in central italy, Marian legionaries can be trained virtually everywhere you'd want to go.

[themilo]

Eventho I've yet to see that actually happen in any mod I'd like to add a few points:

EB is all about Historical accuracy etc. having your Hastati on campaign in the forests of germania or the deserts of arabia magically transform into Marian legionaries, is just not plausible.
Reforms are changes, not simply upgrades. gameplaywise they are less upgrades than mechnics that unlock new units
Reformed units in EB are not always better than their early counterparts. Many players like to keep a few old units. For example the Camillian Triari clearly is a stronger unit than the Polybian one. It's not like the unreformed units become totally obsolete with the reform.
You don't have to "replace" all your armies. Just train new ones, Romans have enough money for that, and all others can slowly supplement their armies with new units. for example the Seleucid armoured Royal Guard, you simply add one (or two) to your royal army, they don't really replace anything. As romans you will probably have some armies with old equipment and others with new stuff. So what's the problem? Your old armies still kick butt, you just can'T retrain them anymore.
For romani the main advantage of reformed infantry is neither cost efficiency or raw strengh but availibility. While you can only train Cammilian troops in central italy, Marian legionaries can be trained virtually everywhere you'd want to go.

If there in Arabia then yes they should not change, if there in Italy they should.

I do admit that if reformed troops aren’t a straight up upgrade like they are in vanilla Rome then it’s not nearly as annoying, I also admit that even in vanilla Rome I should not have replaced my entire army although in my defense I didn’t expect it to be so boring, I still dislike the reforms since they result in a lot of tedious busywork since you can retrain a army a lot faster than you can build them and if I could I would remove them.

[abou]

Just because I can’t fix something doesn’t invalidate my complaint, the only that would invalidate my complaint is that it’s simply impossible to mod units upgrading into better/different units.

In this case, it does. Because there is actually no way to track every unit that gets changed in a reform that you have recruited and replace them exactly with a reform unit.

What's more, your complaint of something that impossible -- or at the least incredibly difficult -- to do has so turned you off from the mod that you've basically decided to throw it away.

[themilo]

In this case, it does. Because there is actually no way to track every unit that gets changed in a reform that you have recruited and replace them exactly with a reform unit.

What's more, your complaint of something that impossible -- or at the least incredibly difficult -- to do has so turned you off from the mod that you've basically decided to throw it away.

I’m not throwing this mod away just for one very annoying feature(that isent even the mods fault) but I can understand why you would think that, it’s very annoying but at least it’s one of those annoyances that only lasts a few(well okay more than a few) turns, what is this mod fault and what might make me give up on this mod is that instead of one reform there are several, hopefully the rest of the mod is good enough that I can overlook that.

[Ca Putt]

yeah retraining=reforming would be quite convenient. This however is sort of a Feature in EB2 afaik, not for romans but for celts, at least to some extent.

Also you don't have to Play as Rome, apart from rome only few factions have so many reformed Units that you'd Train new armies. And only celts sortof get into the same Situation as romans. For Saka rauka and Parthia is more like: Hey guys we can actually Train infantry now, awesome! so you don't replace your armies you just add a few ones that don't exclusively consist of horsearchers^^ It's similar with hayasdan, tho not as extreme.
Carthage, Arche seleukeia, Sweboz, Koinon hellenon, Makedonia and... who ever I forgot mainly just get a few new Units, added to their selection that can help make their armies more diverse/powerfull.

[Principe]

I feel that much of the fun is in the reforms. Working hard to get the Marian reforms is really good role play and gameplay wise. Play as a different faction if you want. The recruiting system is great. I made on legion of Hastati, Principes, and Triarii, but by the time I reached Gregovia, it was half Gallic. I love how it seems so realistic that an army that took heavy casualties might recruit local soldiers to fight for them.

[themilo]

yeah retraining=reforming would be quite convenient. This however is sort of a Feature in EB2 afaik, not for romans but for celts, at least to some extent.

Also you don't have to Play as Rome, apart from rome only few factions have so many reformed Units that you'd Train new armies. And only celts sortof get into the same Situation as romans. For Saka rauka and Parthia is more like: Hey guys we can actually Train infantry now, awesome! so you don't replace your armies you just add a few ones that don't exclusively consist of horsearchers^^ It's similar with hayasdan, tho not as extreme.
Carthage, Arche seleukeia, Sweboz, Koinon hellenon, Makedonia and... who ever I forgot mainly just get a few new Units, added to their selection that can help make their armies more diverse/powerfull.

The problem is that beside Rome carthage and Egypt nearly every other faction in the game is too hard for me, plus I want to play as Rome because beside the reforms I like playing as Rome.

[Principe]

Most factions are easy once you try them. I used to suck at barbarian armies. Now, I still suck, but I can conquer Rome with the Aedui. It's all how you think of it. Carthage is my personal favorite, but I think all of them have a chance. I think Makedon or Epeiros would be a good start. This is coming from a phalanx strategist, which you may not want to be. Then it's your own free will.

[sleep_well]

Did Rome actually retrained their old armies or they simply raised new ones in the new fashion, maybe they changed equipments of their veterans? I am always interested with this question.

I also found the reforms for Rome to be no inconvenience at all, they did mess up my armies sometimes but no big deal. Besides, they should mess things up. I would imagine Camillian legions mixing with Polybian reinforcement to be historically accurate since come on they just strip their whole arsenal in 3 months??? Such reforms should be huge and would require considerable amount of time to carry out, a few years I think, so yeah I have nothing to complaint. If you don't want to recruit new armies then don't, simply reinforce them with new units, maybe forming a corp of veterans in those legions, or sending them as vanguards so your new units can be fresh and tidy.

Also, until someone do something to Rome 2, I'm not buying that mess.

[themilo]

Most factions are easy once you try them. I used to suck at barbarian armies. Now, I still suck, but I can conquer Rome with the Aedui. It's all how you think of it. Carthage is my personal favorite, but I think all of them have a chance. I think Makedon or Epeiros would be a good start. This is coming from a phalanx strategist, which you may not want to be. Then it's your own free will.

I tried Macedonia and it was anything but easy, the only way I can think of to win is to hold off Epirus in palla by killing their elephants and then holding out for 6 more turns until I can take Athens.

[joshmahurin]

So you're at turn 1? Try playing as the Koinon Hellenon and talk about hard

[Ca Putt]

It's not that hard, conquer Korinth; expell Macedonian troops from attica and conquer chalkis, after that your biggest problem is that everybody thinks you're there to save them from some random empire.

KH campaign is like a tutorial for how to use Hoplitai haploi and Sphendotai.

[sleep_well]

after that your biggest problem is that everybody thinks you're there to save them from some random empire.

Really? How?

[joshmahurin]

Eh it's just hard if they actually bring that massive stack down on you and then for the first while after until you have thoroughly trounced them and can afford to garison your cities. And yeah the scripted savior of all Hellas BS makes you into a fickle ally which pisses everyone off. Still it's only hard to start is what I meant. Especially if yeah you are not the best general or you prefer to play slow and steady like me and not send every able bodied man at the Macedonian wall

[The Stranger]

So you're at turn 1? Try playing as the Koinon Hellenon and talk about hard

KH are like the easiest stuff in the world, you can have half of greece within 10 turns (on VH/VH)

Macedon might actually be harder because of all the people theyre at war with from the start.
Epirus would be hard if not for their elephants, which if u can keep them alive, will destroy anything the enemy can throw at you for like 5 years.

[Titus Marcellus Scato]

KH are like the easiest stuff in the world, you can have half of greece within 10 turns (on VH/VH)

Macedon might actually be harder because of all the people theyre at war with from the start.
Epirus would be hard if not for their elephants, which if u can keep them alive, will destroy anything the enemy can throw at you for like 5 years.

So VH/VH is the easiest stuff in the world? Maybe for you - not for the average new player. I still play H/M.

Macedon are at war with many factions at the start, but it's easy to quickly make peace with the Getai and the Ptolemies, because they don't share a border with you at the beginning and are therefore not very interested in fighting you. Only KH and Epirus are your real enemies, and sometimes even Epirus will make peace if you offer them a small bribe.

[The Stranger]

no VH/VH isnt the easiest stuff, VH campaign mode is np, VH battle mode can be pretty hard when u have equal armies and it can also be pretty frustrating if you are in a position where you cant flank and just see your elite units melt vs medium tier units :/ but otherwise its a nice challenge.

I meant that Koinon Hellenon isnt hard. Try pontus, that stuff is epic.

[Ca Putt]

Well KH certainly have their rocky start but it's nowhere as hard as that of several other factions, at the same time it does not get all that easy right after securing the homeland*(which is the point from which the game for most factions gets rather easy). That's why I actually like the silly "save hellas" events, they get you out of your little fortress. Another reason probably is that they neither have swordsmen nor Phalangitai(ok they do but who let's them romani scoundrels get a huge city?^^) nor Horse archers.

*Whereas the KH homeland coding is a bit confusing, but, you know the core regions where you can recruit elite troops

[The Stranger]

well thats what i mean, imo its a misconception/misplay that KH have a hard start. You need to blitz obviously, but with some good use of your army you can win so much ground early on. You start with quite alot of FM and theyre pretty epic infantry, the spartan family members, but even the regular ones, kick some serious *** if you use them right. For example, you can conquer crete (on VH/M) by just using your 2 cretan archers and your 3 family members (you ship 2 over from the mainland). aka you shouldnt lose a man that will not get automatically replaced.

And their economy is pretty strong as well, you shouldnt even go into debth :/

[Ca Putt]

yeah they are pretty kickass.

taking crete is not that big a Problem, the macedonian army wandering around Attica does resemble a damocles sword tho and imho is what might be considered "Hard". With combined Greek Forces and some Basic knowledge of hoplite vs Phalangite warfare they can be quickly disposed however and give a nice "founding myth" for your new "empire". But Newcomers do get intimidated by them.

Once you learned how to use Haploi and Sphendonetai effectively the KH campaign is much easier.

[The Stranger]

yea, especially the slingers are critical, but the haploi are pretty darn good for their cost etc. and ofcourse use those FM, dont just let them wither away in a city early on. The best early on are imo the FM of the nomad factions, but the KH might take a close 2nd place due to the warfarce culture of the area. The heavy cavalry FM of other factions can be a winning force in battles as well with some charge and withdraw micro, but imo are less useful in a less developed army. without the anvil to tie the enemy down, the hammer doesnt do too well :/

i actually like to get an IV government in some places that have the gallic general and the steppe general. combine these into and army, add some of your own heavy cav FM and you have an autoregenerating stack of doom for medium cost. its absolutely awesome. 6 vollorix, 6 horse archer generals, and 2 HC family members and a trained spy. just see the cities fall :P

[kdrakak]

yea, especially the slingers are critical, but the haploi are pretty darn good for their cost etc. and ofcourse use those FM, dont just let them wither away in a city early on. The best early on are imo the FM of the nomad factions, but the KH might take a close 2nd place due to the warfarce culture of the area. The heavy cavalry FM of other factions can be a winning force in battles as well with some charge and withdraw micro, but imo are less useful in a less developed army. without the anvil to tie the enemy down, the hammer doesnt do too well :/

i actually like to get an IV government in some places that have the gallic general and the steppe general. combine these into and army, add some of your own heavy cav FM and you have an autoregenerating stack of doom for medium cost. its absolutely awesome. 6 vollorix, 6 horse archer generals, and 2 HC family members and a trained spy. just see the cities fall :P

That sounds like a very powerful combo... if not very realistic...

[Ca Putt]

well the Fms are awesome, and unlike mounted non-nomad FMs you can have a large amout of them in one stack without the army getting silly and ineffective. th great disadvantage of the KH(in terms of FMs) however is that they don't have any lancers until you either hire some Illyrians or upgrade Athens*' MIC. Most other factions get Lancers early on due to their Bodyguard being a lancer. Exceptions here are sweboz not sure about saba and Lusotani, aka how lancy their cavalry is.
And Lancers are of premium importance when dealing with superior Infantry formations. With some good slinger use it's not that big of an issue but It does throw soem people off. also Having a foot FM means you won'T be able to kill most of the routers. :(

The heavy cavalry FM of other factions can be a winning force in battles as well with some charge and withdraw micro, but imo are less useful in a less developed army.

you're right there, If you don't have anything to hold the enemy in place it's not so easy to strike at them. However apart from the nomads you usually have a unit or two of phalangitai or other heavy infantry in your army to pin down them buggers.

PS: ehm, what was the topic anyway?^^

*or a more nothern city when you blitz a lot

[The Stranger]

saba have an infantry FM iirc, but i never really played the faction :/ lusotanas FM are not for me, theyre like javelin cav, but i just find them weak and ineffective. i replaced them with the dosidataskeli in my games :P those units kick ***. idc if ahistorical or not, they just have to be in it :P

killing routers is best done by light cavalry, which you do have easy access too, i agree that not having cavalry FM is a bit of a problem for the midgame as KH but the mercenary pool is so good in greece and surrounding areas that its barely a problem once the money starts pouring in.