Archived: HRE-campaign in Redux v1004 (Hard)

[daigaku]

Hi @Stazi,

...a pity, but I know this state all too good, especially with (Vanilla)Danes/(Redux)Norse. In Redux, most between year 950 and 1100 the fun disappears. Not being a steamroller myself, I stop then if there is no more challenge as well.
Nevertheless, if you´ve got something interesting going, please tell!

greetings daigaku

[Axalon]

Hi guys, I just wanted to throw in a few remarks on that note.

I think what you guys are describing is a dead give away sign that you're actually playing below you skill-levels, and then you essentially complain about it. A circumstance that you guys have in large part generated and created yourselves. I have seen this many times over at standard MTW-section - but I have to admit, it’s a first here at the Redux-area.

I’m not saying that my designs are perfect somehow or that they can not be improved upon. They always can, somehow. However, it’s hardly a secret that the "VI-1004e" is vastly superior to "VI-1004a" in the overall game experience and general AI-performance by itself, now is it? The point being that, in order to improve the RX-designs further, for a better game-experience, they need additional testing and input. You guys can either help out with that by posting this and possible suggestions for consideration. There is also a veteran-level which none of you have touched so far, right? It is possible that we might never fully escape the circumstances you guys are describing, however this is not a matter of 100% designs only, it also a matter playing style.

Both of you are defensive and very thorough players as I understand it, leaving little or nothing to chance, both in battle and beyond. Such traits certainly increases the chances and circumstances that things essentially end up in all that what you are describing. You are thus partly to blame for it yourselves. Maxed out units are obviously better then not maxed out units. That will obviously be reflected in battle-results. It’s unrealistic to expect that the even a RX-AI will also only deploy maxed out, experienced units. Or be as happy about and skilful at micromanaging crossbow-units as you are Staz. Or as methodical and patiently hiking in the forest, for optimal results as you are Dai. You guys are maximizing your chances as human players in ways that is clearly beyond the capacity of the AI, it can’t keep up with that. I’m not blaming you guys for your playing styles, but it is clearly a bit too effective for its own good, as it obviously don’t deliver as much adventure and excitement as you would like. In order to get there you’ll have to let go and be more reckless and daring while playing, and probably play at veteran...

That said, in order to get a better overall game-experience even after some X turns, I need input, intel and suggestions to consider. You boys can provide that, by posting some, and help yourselves by helping me improve Redux. Or you can do zilch and get as much excitement and fun in the end. Your call…

***

Nevertheless, if you´ve got something interesting going, please tell!

Well, if you feel that way Dai, perhaps you could post some feedback on my big “experiment-post” over at the main/general thread. I posted it, in the hopes it would be interesting somehow for people here…

I win battles while outnumbered 3:1 or even 5:1 with minimal losses.

Actually, I would love to see a recording or two of such a battle(s), Staz. Just to see what you are doing when achieving such results. If you don't mind? ...?...

- A

[Stazi]

I think what you guys are describing is a dead give away sign that you're actually playing below you skill-levels, and then you essentially complain about it. A circumstance that you guys have in large part generated and created yourselves.

Your're right about all but complaining. I play the way I like. Don't take it personally. You've made a great mod but there is a lot of hardcoded limits you can't do much about (especially AI). I can fight battles with green, low end units when I'm forced to (and I still enjoy it) but it feels like I failed as a king (or diplomat). When a battle is played not on my terms or when I'm surprised by an enemy attack it means that something went wrong. I try to avoid such situations as much as I can. It usually leads to turtling and I can't help it.

The other thing is that I like to watch. I keep low at the start and observe the others. I like when an other country becomes strong and its big armies provide a real threat for me. When you attack quick and become a dominating power, the whole game starts to revolve entirely around you. The moment when you have the most provinces and biggest army everyone becomes hostile or neutral (at best) to you even if there is no sense in it. After several turns, when you have to fight a few battles every turn, it starts to feel like a hard, dull work. I like to play a battle from time to time, especially a challenging one, but playing a few battles, turn by turn, is boring. That's why I've never finished any campaign.

Considering battles - I don't play MTW right now so I can't show you any battle (I'll record one or two next time). Generally, my strategy concentrates around luring enemies into attacking me where I want to be attacked. The AI tends to underestimate the quality of units and it leads to tragic results. When I have a fully prepared army I soften my border forces to 16 or sometimes even less units. AI attacks, gets beaten, I attack the province where the decimated army retreated (usually winning easily) and... process repeats. Winning battles (attacking or defending) is not a big deal when you have 16 high quality units commanded by a good general. I know, it's very secure way of playing but I like it.

Veteran level - when battles change into slaughterhouse because of increased morale? Not a fan of. I haven't played on this difficulty for a long time but I'll try it next time in Redux.

[daigaku]

Hi, friends,
@Axalon:

Both of you are defensive and very thorough players as I understand it, leaving little or nothing to chance, both in battle and beyond

Thus far, you´re right. For my part, i´d add "striving for absolute naval superiority" and "money grabber" as well ;-))

In Vanilla, I got bored on "expert" as well, being too easy for me. So I gave a very brief try to XL, but this posing no more challenge than Vanilla, I was really happy to find your Redux. Had to learn things to be different, and much to my taste - here I only can add my thanks for Redux to Stazi´s one.
Having to learn about all the changed games mechanics and getting to know strengths and weaknesses of the different factions, of course my first games are played "casual". But not for long, I can reassure you. Parallel to my (first)1004eVI/Russian/casual campaign I am playing a 1003VI/Norse/veteran campaign (other rig), which is fun. Even leaving the English alone to get them strong before taking the island (as usual, Ireland is mine already).

as it obviously don’t deliver as much adventure and excitement as you would like

Now, you know what my excitement is? To get as many of my brave guys as possible home after battle. Every lost man is my personal failure. I simply imagine a REAL battle, thinking about my men and about the country they live in, and I don´t want to loose neighter men nor land to anybody not caring for them/it as good as I do (there should be, in my opinion, even some influence increase in the game for keeping my people happy, rich and alive!). The kick is to build up, as far as possible, to have the best drill possible, and, if really necessary, to beat the enemy with the least lost men possible.
Redux does make that quite a bit harder than Vanilla, therefor I play it. And, as said quite often, con mucho gusto ;-)
@Stazi:

Waiting and building up until there are only left some 4-6 really strong factions - one of my favourites as well. This "every turn a few battles" thingy doesn´t happen too often to me, because I mainly play GA, not total domination. As some examples: Playing English, I normally only take the Islands and the Lithuanian provinces till far into the game, later on taking Scandinavia - that´s it. As Norse, it´s nearly the same - Scandinavia, Ireland, Lithuanian country, and later the english island. As Russian, it´s the straight line Couronia-Berezan, Ireland, and Sicily for mediterranian ship production.

My first Norse/veteran game is really great - and the Norse have got quite some buildings to boost their "naturally" already enormous morale even further, so the penalty you get against the AI is neglectable ;-)) Really worth a try, I´d say.

Greetings to all,

daigaku

[Zarakas]

Hi Axalon

I play a very similar style to Stazi and Dai. I always play on Veteran level.

Redux is a great mod, and i congratulate you on your work. It is definatly a different experience to other mods and the original. These days I only play redux.
I enjoy "supremacy", great idea/concept. My favourite faction are the Byzantines, i also play Norse, English etc.

MTW original offered different periods and units, in addition, it also had the Mongols. This added the need to prepare, and change of strategy for the player. Some suggestions to changes for period after 900AD.

Byzantines - 900AD and later

1. Maybe a stronger power to the East or North East, say a greater Russia or Steppes faction to challange the Byzantines.
2. Maybe an addition to unit types

Best regards to all,
zarakas

[Axalon]

Hi again guys... Some replies here and there for you...

I play the way I like.

But of course you do, I was not trying suggest you do otherwise - in the event that I somehow did, it was truly not my intention here. I was suggesting that playing-style might be a partial cause for your problems, as described. And, I was forwarding possible “counter-measures” for it, or so I believe....

You've made a great mod

Its not every day I hear you say something like that... Thanks…

I can fight battles with green, low end units when I'm forced to (and I still enjoy it) but it feels like I failed as a king (or diplomat). When a battle is played not on my terms or when I'm surprised by an enemy attack it means that something went wrong. I try to avoid such situations as much as I can. It usually leads to turtling and I can't help it.

Fair enough… Its understandable and I can’t say I blame you for it…

The other thing is that I like to watch. I keep low at the start and observe the others. I like when an other country becomes strong and its big armies provide a real threat for me. When you attack quick and become a dominating power, the whole game starts to revolve entirely around you. The moment when you have the most provinces and biggest army everyone becomes hostile or neutral (at best) to you even if there is no sense in it. After several turns, when you have to fight a few battles every turn, it starts to feel like a hard, dull work. I like to play a battle from time to time, especially a challenging one, but playing a few battles, turn by turn, is boring. That's why I've never finished any campaign.

I can fully understand and relate to that, you do have a point… However, I can not help but to think that in part you are saying seem to be more colored by, and relevant to, standard MTW (and other mods) then it is with Redux. It’s hard to “attack quick and become a dominating power” just like that in Redux, usually the problems with stability and rebellions kills such a strategy right away from the start. It takes much more time and effort in Redux... That circumstance clearly sets it apart from the rest. See the general thread post: 581 it should illustrate my point clearly. Or am I too picky here? ...?...

I know, it's very secure way of playing but I like it.

Well in that case, carry on. As long as you realize that, if the excitement dries away due to things being too "secure" and "predictable" for you – it’s probably because you pushed all things into that very direction. As long as you well aware of that, knock yourself out in whatever fashion that suits you man. If you like it, who am I to argue with that?

Veteran level - when battles change into slaughterhouse because of increased morale? Not a fan of. I haven't played on this difficulty for a long time but I'll try it next time in Redux.

I guess we all have our different takes on this. There are valid points to be had on both sides. The AI-bonuses are there for sure. All the same this will probably be the only true solution to your dilemma as I understand it. I think you should at least try it. Just to make sure it’s not for you, alright? Redux is after all different, all over. You might like it, you never know….

***

here I only can add my thanks for Redux to Stazi´s one.

While a bit more generous with occasions for expressing your praise Dai, I still very much appreciate it, all the same… As ever… :)

Now, you know what my excitement is? To get as many of my brave guys as possible home after battle. Every lost man is my personal failure. I simply imagine a REAL battle, thinking about my men and about the country they live in, and I don´t want to loose neighter men nor land to anybody not caring for them/it as good as I do (there should be, in my opinion, even some influence increase in the game for keeping my people happy, rich and alive!). The kick is to build up, as far as possible, to have the best drill possible, and, if really necessary, to beat the enemy with the least lost men possible. Redux does make that quite a bit harder than Vanilla, therefor I play it. And, as said quite often, con mucho gusto ;-)

How can I argue with all that? Carry on….


I have replied to Zarakas post in the main/generalthread, see post: 583…



EDIT:
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Thread-split/posts moved, as to preserve topicality of thread. We have not been posting about the actual topic here for some time and as the thread-topic/project has been abandoned by its originator, we should rather leave this thread to die in peace. All deviating posts has been moved to the general thread where they have a much better home, and all related discussion of these (moved) posts are welcome to continue over there at your discretion. If nothing new that explicitly concerns to the actual topic here – then please do not make further posts here, instead use the general/main thread.

- A