The Glorious American Justice system!

[The Lurker Below]

At a glance... notice the amount of people in this list that are black. A lot of it comes down to race. If you look at the American "justice system" African Americans are more harshly punished than any other race. The American system is a farce. Its more luck of the draw than fare

As the great Richard Pryor said: "You go down there looking for justice; that's what you find: just us."

[Sasaki Kojiro]

If more people commit serious crimes, then there should be more people in prison. So it is strange when people hold out there number of people in prison as if it proves injustice. If one country had 10,000 criminals, and 20,000 people in prison, that would be terribly unjust, while if another country had 100,000 criminals and 50,000 in prison that would be terrible police work. well it would be pretty good police work actually but you get the idea.

the aclu is a retarded propaganda organization. click the infographic, it says a reverend is serving life for borrowing a coworkers truck. Google for a news article, you read:

"Aaron Jones, after serving two years in prison in his 20s for involuntary manslaughter during a bar fight, turned his life around. He earned his electrical technician degree, got married, was ordained and founded the Perfect Love Outreach Ministry. While renovating a motel, Jones used a co-worker’s truck, which was being used at the time as a company vehicle, to visit his wife and children. When the co-worker discovered the truck missing, he reported it stolen, not knowing that Jones had it. Jones was pulled over while driving the truck, arrested and convicted to life without parole in Louisiana due to his previous conviction."

dig down into the actual pdf:

Jones, who is Black, was subsequently found driving the
truck by police, who pulled him over for driving through a stop sign.885 He was
sentenced to mandatory LWOP as a fourth felony offender at age 34 because of
prior convictions for issuing worthless checks in 1995, negligent homicide in 1989,
and armed robbery in 1982.886 After he served two years in prison for the negligent
homicide conviction, which stemmed from a knife fight outside of a bar during
which Jones unintentionally killed his attacker, he had turned his life around.887

and this is still his/the aclu's story! I guess they figure people will only read infographics.

************

Europeans are very confused about justice.

"In particular, every German state grants regular Christmas amnestie,s which free all inmates serving short sentences. German lawyers, indeed, can try to plan around these amnesties, in the effort to guarantee their clients the shortest possible stay in prison. It is known, in the various states, that inmates must serve a certain minimum time--typically a month--before they may benefit from any amnesty. Savvy offenders can try to delay their admission to prison until one month before the effective date of the annual Christmas amnesty, effectively shortening their sentences to one month. The German justice system tolerates these tactics reflects a systematic toleration for relative mildness."--

James Q Whitman, harsh justice: criminal punishment and the widening divide between america and europe. A very interesting book by the way.

"So too does the prominence of matter form the law of insult in the prisons. The regulations require German prison guards to address prisoners as "Sie.," the respectful formal form of address. German inmates have not infrequently brought successful actions against guards who addressed them disrespectfully..."--pg 90

"In one important case, an inmate who had been handed an unfavorable decision of the Constitutional Court burst out at his guard, "Don't be so snotty, you uppity jerk." Subjected to disciplinary measures for this insult, the inmate carried the case to the Constitutional Court once again, which carefully ruled that, while criminal insults were naturally punishable, prison officials had a special obligation to weigh that interest against the inmate's interest in free expression. Strangely enough, German convicts may thus actually be more free to hand out insults than ordinary Germans are."--pg 91

And remember the case of gunther parche:


"In 1990, at the age of 16, Seles became the youngest-ever French Open champion. She went on to win eight Grand Slam singles titles before her 20th birthday and was the year-end World No. 1 in 1991 and 1992. However, on April 30, 1993 she was the victim of an on-court attack, when a man stabbed her in the back with a 9-inch-long knife.[3] Seles did not return to tennis for over two years. Though she enjoyed some success after rejoining the tour in 1995, including a fourth Australian Open success in 1996, she was unable to consistently reproduce her best form. She played her last professional match at the 2003 French Open, but did not officially retire until February 2008."

"To one degree or another, every northern European country has turned to the day fine, or probation in some other form, for all but the most serious, and especially violent, offeneses. Indeed, even very high-profile violent offenders often do no time. When Gunter Parche stabbed tennis star Monica Seles, Americans expected that he would receive a long prison sentence, as would surely have been the case in the United States. Following normal German practice, though, he received a sentence of probation."--pg 72

"Seles vowed never to play tennis in Germany again, disenchanted by the German legal system. "What people seem to be forgetting is that this man stabbed me intentionally and he did not serve any sort of punishment for it... I would not feel comfortable going back. I don't foresee that happening."[8]"

http://www.law.berkeley.edu/sugarman...nica_Seles.pdf


*************

It's obviously hard to get things exactly right. But if you read about it you can see that the Europeans have gone wrong in many ways. Unfortunately it seems like the americans who want to improve our system think that the Europeans have got it right. But it's just not that easy.

[Husar]

If more people commit serious crimes, then there should be more people in prison. So it is strange when people hold out there number of people in prison as if it proves injustice. If one country had 10,000 criminals, and 20,000 people in prison, that would be terribly unjust, while if another country had 100,000 criminals and 50,000 in prison that would be terrible police work. well it would be pretty good police work actually but you get the idea.

And why does America have so many criminals compared to all other countries?

the aclu is a retarded propaganda organization. click the infographic, it says a reverend is serving life for borrowing a coworkers truck. Google for a news article, you read:



dig down into the actual pdf:



and this is still his/the aclu's story! I guess they figure people will only read infographics.

How is it incorrect? He had served his time for all his previous crimes, got arrested for an alleged crime he did not really commit and was still sentenced for it? Why?

Europeans are very confused about justice.



James Q Whitman, harsh justice: criminal punishment and the widening divide between america and europe. A very interesting book by the way.

We are not confused, these paroles are not handed out to sex offenders, murderers and other dangerous criminals, which is the little bit of info your quotes omit. It would probably really hurt you to parole some guys who were caught with some marihuana, what a danger to society...

And remember the case of gunther parche:


"In 1990, at the age of 16, Seles became the youngest-ever French Open champion. She went on to win eight Grand Slam singles titles before her 20th birthday and was the year-end World No. 1 in 1991 and 1992. However, on April 30, 1993 she was the victim of an on-court attack, when a man stabbed her in the back with a 9-inch-long knife.[3] Seles did not return to tennis for over two years. Though she enjoyed some success after rejoining the tour in 1995, including a fourth Australian Open success in 1996, she was unable to consistently reproduce her best form. She played her last professional match at the 2003 French Open, but did not officially retire until February 2008."




"Seles vowed never to play tennis in Germany again, disenchanted by the German legal system. "What people seem to be forgetting is that this man stabbed me intentionally and he did not serve any sort of punishment for it... I would not feel comfortable going back. I don't foresee that happening."[8]"

http://www.law.berkeley.edu/sugarman...nica_Seles.pdf

He was found to have a personality disorder, that's why he got the lower sentence. Again your quotes omit information.
He also didn't go on stabbing a lot of other people or showed more criminal behavior, so what's the point? Locking up mentally challenged people for once in a lifetime incidents? Maybe Seles could have gotten better counseling if America had had a proper healthcare system since her psychological injuries were much greater than the negligible physical ones she got from the incident.

It's obviously hard to get things exactly right. But if you read about it you can see that the Europeans have gone wrong in many ways. Unfortunately it seems like the americans who want to improve our system think that the Europeans have got it right. But it's just not that easy.

You started your post by claiming that America has a whole lot more criminals than European countries and that's why you have a higher prison population. And you end it by saying Europeans are not doing anything better. Why do we have fewer criminals then?

[Sasaki Kojiro]

And why does America have so many criminals compared to all other countries?
...
You started your post by claiming that America has a whole lot more criminals than European countries and that's why you have a higher prison population. And you end it by saying Europeans are not doing anything better. Why do we have fewer criminals then?

These are two different topics. People who quote the prison numbers relative to Europe are arguing that they are themselves proof of a poor justice system. But they aren't for the reason I mentioned. The question of why we have more criminals in America is not really related to why our justice system is harsher. We made our system harsher in response to a crime wave.

How is it incorrect? He had served his time for all his previous crimes, got arrested for an alleged crime he did not really commit and was still sentenced for it? Why?

If you keep committing crimes, the penalties should increase. But I think you are being deliberately stubborn here. The aclu infographic does simply say that he was given life in jail for borrowing a truck, does it not? And yet he had been convicted of armed robbery, check fraud, and "unintentionally" killing someone in a knife fight (was he trying to stab to wound???). It's very unlikely that he was caught and convicted for every crime he committed, so likely he committed more. That makes the aclu's claim blatant propaganda.

He was found to have a personality disorder, that's why he got the lower sentence. Again your quotes omit information.

His "personality disorder" was that he worshipped steffi graf, and wanted to injure monica seles because she was graf's main competitor. Why would that get him a lower sentence? What's the difference between that and someone obsessed with racial or religious issues, who tries to kill someone on that account? What's the difference between that and someone watching about of al-quaeda propaganda videos and letting off a bomb at a marathon? Anyway, you don't just have a "personality disorder" like that. He chose over the years to obsess over steffi graf, to live vicariously through her successes and defeats.

Allowing psychiatrists to pretend like their expertise applies to moral questions like this happens in american courts too however. That's why minimum sentencing laws are important.

He also didn't go on stabbing a lot of other people or showed more criminal behavior, so what's the point? Locking up mentally challenged people for once in a lifetime incidents? Maybe Seles could have gotten better counseling if America had had a proper healthcare system since her psychological injuries were much greater than the negligible physical ones she got from the incident.

like I said, you are completely confused about justice. Seles is completely right to be outraged that he was not punished. Without him being punished there is no justice.

If his obsession with steffi graf had lead to him raping her instead of stabbing seles, would you still want him on probation? With "counseling" for her "psychological injuries" since her physical ones were "negligable"?

[Husar]

These are two different topics. People who quote the prison numbers relative to Europe are arguing that they are themselves proof of a poor justice system. But they aren't for the reason I mentioned. The question of why we have more criminals in America is not really related to why our justice system is harsher. We made our system harsher in response to a crime wave.

And did it work out well? The question is whether the harsher justice system actually reduces crime or not. Unless you think improvement is for chumps.

If you keep committing crimes, the penalties should increase. But I think you are being deliberately stubborn here. The aclu infographic does simply say that he was given life in jail for borrowing a truck, does it not? And yet he had been convicted of armed robbery, check fraud, and "unintentionally" killing someone in a knife fight (was he trying to stab to wound???). It's very unlikely that he was caught and convicted for every crime he committed, so likely he committed more. That makes the aclu's claim blatant propaganda.

But he did not steal any truck, so why was he sentenced? Because he "likely committed something else"? Or simply because he had some previous crimes and they just felt like randomly arresting him again for those? Your quote clearly says that his co-worker was mistaken when he reported the truck stolen because he didn't know Jones had it:

While renovating a motel, Jones used a co-worker’s truck, which was being used at the time as a company vehicle, to visit his wife and children. When the co-worker discovered the truck missing, he reported it stolen, not knowing that Jones had it. Jones was pulled over while driving the truck, arrested and convicted to life without parole in Louisiana due to his previous conviction.

Or do you get jail time for driving over a stop sign in the US?

His "personality disorder" was that he worshipped steffi graf, and wanted to injure monica seles because she was graf's main competitor. Why would that get him a lower sentence? What's the difference between that and someone obsessed with racial or religious issues, who tries to kill someone on that account? What's the difference between that and someone watching about of al-quaeda propaganda videos and letting off a bomb at a marathon? Anyway, you don't just have a "personality disorder" like that. He chose over the years to obsess over steffi graf, to live vicariously through her successes and defeats.

Allowing psychiatrists to pretend like their expertise applies to moral questions like this happens in american courts too however. That's why minimum sentencing laws are important.

Did you talk to the guy or do you just like to pretend you know better than the psychiatrists who examined him?
If you want to doubt their expert opinion, you are the one who has to provide the proof.
So far you just want to exact revenge on someone who may have had serious mental issues. The comparison to terrorists is a bit silly since he was neither close to being a mass murderer nor did he plan and attempt more attacks after his conviction.

like I said, you are completely confused about justice. Seles is completely right to be outraged that he was not punished. Without him being punished there is no justice.

If his obsession with steffi graf had lead to him raping her instead of stabbing seles, would you still want him on probation? With "counseling" for her "psychological injuries" since her physical ones were "negligable"?

A rape is far more intimate than a stabbing into a relatively harmless area. And I don't know about the exactreasons that led him to do this. Experts who examined them did however find that he should get a lower sentence and you still haven't shown how and why they were wrong.
I'm not confused about justice, justice as you define it is about dwelling over the past while I prefer to improve the future. No amount of justice will ever undo the past. In some cases punishment serves a purpose but judges and experts are there to determine when and how much has to be applied. Do you really think it is always just to completely satisfy a victim's desire for revenge? Do you think Iran allowing a woman to pour acid into a man's face after he blinded her by doing the same to her makes the world a better place?

[Sasaki Kojiro]

And did it work out well? The question is whether the harsher justice system actually reduces crime or not. Unless you think improvement is for chumps.

Are you making the argument that our justice system makes crime worse? That lighter prison sentences would lead to less crime? Otherwise you have essentially gone from defending a poor statistical argument (more prisoners is inherently bad) to another topic entirely.

But he did not steal any truck, so why was he sentenced? Because he "likely committed something else"? Or simply because he had some previous crimes and they just felt like randomly arresting him again for those? Your quote clearly says that his co-worker was mistaken when he reported the truck stolen because he didn't know Jones had it:

Or do you get jail time for driving over a stop sign in the US?

We don't know anything about it. The aclu press release says that he was just borrowing it, but if so why didn't the co-worker testify in his defense? It doesn't really make sense. Why trust them when they lied so blatantly?

Did you talk to the guy or dod you just like to pretend you know better than the psychiatrists who examined him?
If you want to doubt their expert opinion, you are the one who has to provide the proof.
So far you just want to exact revenge on someone who may have had serious mental issues. The comparison to terrorists is a bit silly since he was neither close to being a mass murderer nor did he plan and attempt more attacks after his conviction.

The psychiatrist is a paid expert. They are paid by the defense to argue in such a way that their client gets a lighter sentence. The article I linked to and quoted a bit from goes into more detail.

I don't think you believe that "serious mental issues" means someone should get off, and that has never been the legal standard in any case.

A rape is far more intimate than a stabbing into a relatively harmless area. And I don't know about the exactreasons that led him to do this. Experts who examined them did however find that he should get a lower sentence and you still haven't shown how and why they were wrong.

I don't think you understand the issues with expert testimony in the courts. And you vastly overrate the expertise of psychiatrists, and the relevance of that expertise to what is essentially a moral question. You don't say much about what kind of mental conditions you think should lead to lighter sentences, so it seems like you are simply taking that psychiatrists word for it. Frequently at these trials there are two experts brought in and paid to disagree with each other. In the united states in the 90's there were many psychiatrists who argued that children could repress memories of child abuse, which is complete pseudo-science. It's questionable that psychiatrists should even be allowed in court on many of these cases.

He knew what he was doing, and understood full well that it was wrong. His desire to kill her is what is held up as evidence as a serious mental issue, but why would that be relevant? That's a moral question, not a psychological one.

also "At the hospital, doctors discovered that the knife had gone in about one and a half
inches into Monica’s upper back, but had luckily missed the lungs, spine, and other vital
organs" she was lucky. It's completely weird how much you try and downplay a stabbing like this. It's not like he gave her a papercut. You can easily kill or maim someone by stabbing them in the back.

I'm not confused about justice, justice as you define it is about dwelling over the past while I prefer to improve the future. No amount of justice will ever undo the past. In some cases punishment serves a purpose but judges and experts are there to determine when and how much has to be applied. Do you really think it is always just to completely satisfy a victim's desire for revenge? Do you think Iran allowing a woman to pour acid into a man's face after he blinded her by doing the same to her makes the world a better place?

Sometimes the victims are wrong. Probably they often wish for excessive punishment, but that is why we have courts, to hand out punishment in a civilized way. I would not give much thought to their excessive desires for revenge, though I would give some to their calls for mercy in certain circumstances.

But there is no need for hypotheticals like that.

For her
part, Monica expressed shock and huge disappointment, crying for days when she heard
the news. Through her management group, she released a statement condemning the
decision: “What kind of message does this send to the world? Mr. Parche has admitted
that he stalked me, then he stabbed me once and attempted to stab me a second time. And
now the court has said he does not have to go to jail for this premeditated crime. He gets
to go back to his life, but I can't because I am still recovering from his attack, which
could have killed me”38 In her first interview since the verdict was announced, Monica
further denounced the decision. “’Everyone expected him to get at least 10 or 15 years. It
was obvious what he did to me. It was on tape.”39 Monica’s initial shock turned into
sadness, and then a burning anger.

Is she wrong to demand that kind of prison sentence? I say she is right. But maybe it is just impossible to argue about a difference in a basic conception of justice like that. I shouldn't have said you are confused (though you might be), perhaps your thoughts are completely in order but we differ on a foundational belief.

[Husar]

Are you making the argument that our justice system makes crime worse? That lighter prison sentences would lead to less crime? Otherwise you have essentially gone from defending a poor statistical argument (more prisoners is inherently bad) to another topic entirely.

No, I'm making the argument that harsher prisons and sentences do not reduce crime.
When prisons are so harsh and sentences so long that inmates learn how to fight, get raped by other inmates, join gangs and make more criminal friends and generally come out as tough criminals after going in for maybe the possession of minor amounts of pot, then how is that going to reduce crime? Our prison system is not perfect, we even had a few escapes lately, which is also not good, but our aim is usually to produce better citizens in jails and not to produce better criminals there. Harsher sentences might as well mean that criminals try to kill the policement hunting them more often and more vigorously, leading to police militarization etc. That's another topic of course but generally harsher sentences do not just bring advantages IMO.

We don't know anything about it. The aclu press release says that he was just borrowing it, but if so why didn't the co-worker testify in his defense? It doesn't really make sense. Why trust them when they lied so blatantly?

Exactly, something about the case is weird, I'm just not convinced they're lying, would be nice to have another source but apparently there is none. It's still pretty much true though that the tough on crime stance is there and some states go very far with it.

The psychiatrist is a paid expert. They are paid by the defense to argue in such a way that their client gets a lighter sentence. The article I linked to and quoted a bit from goes into more detail.

I don't think you believe that "serious mental issues" means someone should get off, and that has never been the legal standard in any case.

He didn't get off, he paid a fine. It may have been useful to require him to get counseling but apparently he never did anything like that again.
Who paid the expert does not seem very obviousbut I don't think judges here have to trust experts brought in by either side.
The whole part in that pdf you linked about how a jury system is so much better showed a very clear and IMO very wrong bias anyway. It said that judges are cold and have no emotion etc. but that is wrong. It also didn't mention Schöffen who are not professional judges. The entire article is written with a clear bias against the German justice system, which is not perfect, but also not as bad as the article wants to make it look.

I could also write tirades about how German companies hardly ever win a court case in the USA because of national bias but it's not as heartwarming a story as a girl getting stabbed. This very topic is about the very numerous failings of the court system in the US whereas for Germany one can draw only on a few dubious cases apparently.

I don't think you understand the issues with expert testimony in the courts. And you vastly overrate the expertise of psychiatrists, and the relevance of that expertise to what is essentially a moral question. You don't say much about what kind of mental conditions you think should lead to lighter sentences, so it seems like you are simply taking that psychiatrists word for it. Frequently at these trials there are two experts brought in and paid to disagree with each other. In the united states in the 90's there were many psychiatrists who argued that children could repress memories of child abuse, which is complete pseudo-science. It's questionable that psychiatrists should even be allowed in court on many of these cases.

Those are issues in US courts, where juries can often not judge the expertise of experts very well, I do however trust very intelligent judges more on this matter. I also don't think you can give an expert testimony here if you have signed your own diploma.
That experts, and especially psychiatrists, can be wrong is a fact of life, but the judge in this case found the expert and the defendant quite believable which is not a requirement. According to an angry blog post I found judges can just dismiss experts and order a state-sanctioned expert to review the subject matter. Apparently the judge in this case did not deem this necessary although the article (pdf) is unclear about who paid the expert in the first place, it just says the defense called the expert to testify.

He knew what he was doing, and understood full well that it was wrong. His desire to kill her is what is held up as evidence as a serious mental issue, but why would that be relevant? That's a moral question, not a psychological one.

It would be relevant if his mental state was so bad that he could not resist his desire for reasons out of his control.
A bit like drug addicts know what they do is wrong but lack the mental capacity to resist the drug. I do not understand how that works either as I never had such an urge but apparently it happens to a lot of people and not everyone is the same. The article does a good job portraying it as an evil ploy of his advocates though. It may have been so but much like the ACLU thing above, the article is very biased.

also "At the hospital, doctors discovered that the knife had gone in about one and a half
inches into Monica’s upper back, but had luckily missed the lungs, spine, and other vital
organs" she was lucky. It's completely weird how much you try and downplay a stabbing like this. It's not like he gave her a papercut. You can easily kill or maim someone by stabbing them in the back.

Well, if I drive a car for a robber who promises to just scare people with a plastic gun and the whole affair ends up a bloodbath while I'm sitting 100m away in a car, oblivious to what is going on, then I still get sentenced for murder in the US and my intention not to hurt anyone doesn't count anything in the face of the result. Now it is the other way around, that a crime turned out less bad than it could have and you want the guy sentenced based on his intentions instead of the result? He even stated that he just wanted to wound her and had no intention to kill her, whether judge or jury, sometimes people believe this and sometimes not, in this case the judge believed it.

Sometimes the victims are wrong. Probably they often wish for excessive punishment, but that is why we have courts, to hand out punishment in a civilized way. I would not give much thought to their excessive desires for revenge, though I would give some to their calls for mercy in certain circumstances.

Exactly, and the court decided a jail term was not necessary in this case.

Is she wrong to demand that kind of prison sentence? I say she is right. But maybe it is just impossible to argue about a difference in a basic conception of justice like that. I shouldn't have said you are confused (though you might be), perhaps your thoughts are completely in order but we differ on a foundational belief.

Well, I could also bring up the Trayvon Martin case, a lot of people also believed that the decision was not just, yet that's how it is. The woman can demand what she wants, I'm not going to judge whether she was right, all I know is that I find our justice system a lot more reliable than one based almost entirely on people who would rather be elsewhere and only ended up in court because they couldn't find a convenient excuse to escape jury duty. I do get why some believe being judged by your peers would be preferable but I do not believe that it actually is in reality. A lot of people also trust a lot of other people to be their friends and turn out to be wrong in many cases once something bad happens.
Of course that does not mean that professional judges always make the right decision but I think statistically they are better than juries.

[Ironside]

These are two different topics. People who quote the prison numbers relative to Europe are arguing that they are themselves proof of a poor justice system. But they aren't for the reason I mentioned. The question of why we have more criminals in America is not really related to why our justice system is harsher. We made our system harsher in response to a crime wave.

Link on differences on tendencies on punishments. Short version. The US uses both longer sentences and convicts people to prison more often.

Crime in the US is going down (a general trend in the west), but the number of prisoners still goes up. And the recidivist rates stays high.

What caused that crime wave btw? Your counter argument are that the American system is working fine -> it reduces crime, -> crime rate driven from very high to high and that the US got a very high baseline. Would you say that methods that drives down the baseline outside the prison system are a part of the extended justice system?

My beef with the US system isn't that it's poor in the meaning of corrupted judgements (systematic plea bargains might have an effect), but that the harsh punishments doesn't significantly drive down crime, but rather hurts society more as it hurts the prisoners (who usually gets out sooner or later). So increasing the number of prisoners and worsening the treatment aren't helping society.

like I said, you are completely confused about justice. Seles is completely right to be outraged that he was not punished. Without him being punished there is no justice.

If his obsession with steffi graf had lead to him raping her instead of stabbing seles, would you still want him on probation? With "counseling" for her "psychological injuries" since her physical ones were "negligable"?

The justice system went something like this. Attempted murder? No. Assult? Yes. How big injury + weapon used? Small injury (either 1,5 cm or 1,5 inches, someone is getting it wrong here) but with a knife. 2 years.
Mental stability. Bad. Risk of harming anyone by doing it again? Deemed insignificant -> Probation. It should be some kind of forced treatment in the case somewhere.

Drinking dimethylmercury is good for you.

Is that enough to get me convicted for attempted murder, Sasaki?

If it's not deemed attempted murder, then 2 years for assult is pretty standard.

That mental instabillity is considered diffferent from normal crimes are a long standing standard and the focus there is more on treatment, rather than punishment. That said, it's also the only way to get life on a mental institution, in those countries that doesn't have life in practice.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Some good points here.

I think Sasaki was trying to assert (and I agree) that the higher per capita rate of imprisoned persons does not, of itself, mean that the justice system is flawed. If more persons commit crimes, more are likely to be caught, convicted and imprisoned for crimes committed.

Now, there are EXCELLENT arguments to be made (some have been already above) as to whether harsher sentencing is achieving the objective of minimizing crime and recidivism or not, as well as questions regarding race and prison sentences imposed. There are, also, potentially huge issues regarding cultural attitudes and norms vis-a-vis incarceration.

I'd suggest that a higher overall rate of incarceration when compared to Europe may be more symptomatic of cultural difference than qualitative difference in the system of justice.

[Husar]

Some good points here.

I think Sasaki was trying to assert (and I agree) that the higher per capita rate of imprisoned persons does not, of itself, mean that the justice system is flawed. If more persons commit crimes, more are likely to be caught, convicted and imprisoned for crimes committed.

I absolutely agree with that as well by the way. And I understood it when Sasaki said it.
One does however wonder where all those criminals come from given that other countries have fewer and it's not because other countries are unable to catch criminals.

I'd suggest that a higher overall rate of incarceration when compared to Europe may be more symptomatic of cultural difference than qualitative difference in the system of justice.

Well, if you have a minimal amount of drugs on you here for personal use, you don't go to prison AFAIK.
Ironside's link has this really nice graphic on page one showing the relation of fines to prison sentences in a few countries.
If we equate a prison sentence with a harsher punishment compared to a fine, then the USA have a far harsher system and yet all these criminals are left.
Now consider that if you served jail time for a crime it gets a lot harder to get a job while when you pay a fine there will usually be no record of your crime (not for potential employers that is). People without a job have a higher rate of recidivism I would assume without looking for sources.

[Beskar]

Just posting a link on how Prison is handled in HoreTore's homeland as an alternative to the current trend.

I think that it is a rather good method, it is also a cheaper alternative too.

On the ferry back to the mainland I think about what I have seen and heard. Bastoy is no holiday camp. In some ways I feel as if I've seen a vision of the future – a penal institution designed to heal rather than harm and to generate hope instead of despair. I believe all societies will always need high-security prisons. But there needs to be a robust filtering procedure along the lines of the Norwegian model, in order that the process is not more damaging than necessary. As Nilsen asserts, justice for society demands that people we release from prison should be less likely to cause further harm or distress to others, and better equipped to live as law-abiding citizens.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Just posting a link on how Prison is handled in HoreTore's homeland as an alternative to the current trend.

I think that it is a rather good method, it is also a cheaper alternative too.

Interesting piece. I wonder if the difference in recidivism is cultural, policy-centered, or a combination of both. Certainly sounds like it will waste fewer taxpayer dollars and recidivism below 30% would be wonderful.

[Empire*Of*Media]

All Hail!

The ACLU has released a report on 3278 prisoners with lifetime sentences for nonviolent crimes. If you don't feel like reading, have a handy interactive graphic.

These scum of the earth have committed such heinous crimes as stealing a wallet, a truck or selling 10g of pot. BURN THEM AT THE STAKE!!





FYI Americans, this is why we Europeans consider you barbaric. There is no excuse for this kind of behaviour. None.

the links you posted, they've deleted/censored it!! i think now you are a threat! watch your back because USA has many terrorists! (you call it agents - Like Brenus!)
after that your mind and intelligences will grower and will discover more of USA POLITICAL System !!
i suggest you join http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anonymous_%28group%29 to discover better & more, and create another CONQUER WALL STREET! or maybe CAPITOL HALL !

download their movies/documentaries or email them! they will show you how is the IMPERIALIST USA !
ah....i said and linked this, so you dont call me conspiracy theorist! or you may again!.......

ah i know im not Julian Asange or...... or US & UK Government! and all World Imperialistical Systems im the greater danger ! leave Pannonian & HoreTore !!

[HoreTore]

I'll start by calling you "an incoherent writer". The links still work perfectly, so I might throw out a "conspiracy theorist" as well.

And seriously, join anonymous...?

[Empire*Of*Media]

I'll start by calling you "an incoherent writer". The links still work perfectly, so I might throw out a "conspiracy theorist" as well.

And seriously, join anonymous...?

i update my first post.........

an i know it may sound not connected! but it is as i said you "after that your mind and intelligences will grower and will discover more of USA POLITICAL System !!"

if you'd like to join....but if not......just watch their documentaries!! if you find of course! because UK & US imperialism and other are highly afraid of their revelations! (an example- was USA's link to Bashar Assad and Syrian Civil war!!) as they are hunting to kill Anonymous Members like Julian Assange and the one that escaped to Russia! (i dont remember his name)
i know they just misuse the word "democracy & angel of mankind in history-(like in hollywood)" so if they dont have anything to hide, why they are afraid of revealing their covers and crimes?! why they kill their defector such as KENNEDY & Lincoln & ........too many other?!!

anyway, i like the way Anonymous moves, they Rock! i like USA & Imperialism's Hate on Anonymous as they were fearly resisting their revolt in Occupy Wall Street Movement in 2011! even if they were Victorious standing against will of People...and...people forgot!!
but you could mail them in some way....they will mail you...but you cant mail them!! well, they're Hacktivists and even CIA & FBI Cant get them!! haha!!

[Kadagar_AV]

EasternSpartakus, I don't know if you'd be better of trying to filter your teenage angst and aggression towards slightly less fields, so you could dwell deeper into them and actually learn stuff... Or if you just need to get laid.

Both solutions would do wonders on your focus however, right now it seems to be all over the place. And honestly, even people agreeing with you on certain aspects will find it hard to respect your posts, or for that matter, even understand what your posts are about.

HT was very diplomatic and Norwegianly nice when he called you an "incoherent writer".

[HoreTore]

i update my first post.........

an i know it may sound not connected! but it is as i said you "after that your mind and intelligences will grower and will discover more of USA POLITICAL System !!"

if you'd like to join....but if not......just watch their documentaries!! if you find of course! because UK & US imperialism and other are highly afraid of their revelations! (an example- was USA's link to Bashar Assad and Syrian Civil war!!) as they are hunting to kill Anonymous Members like Julian Assange and the one that escaped to Russia! (i dont remember his name)
i know they just misuse the word "democracy & angel of mankind in history-(like in hollywood)" so if they dont have anything to hide, why they are afraid of revealing their covers and crimes?! why they kill their defector such as KENNEDY & Lincoln & ........too many other?!!

anyway, i like the way Anonymous moves, they Rock! i like USA & Imperialism's Hate on Anonymous as they were fearly resisting their revolt in Occupy Wall Street Movement in 2011! even if they were Victorious standing against will of People...and...people forgot!!
but you could mail them in some way....they will mail you...but you cant mail them!! well, they're Hacktivists and even CIA & FBI Cant get them!! haha!!

1. Julian Assange is the face of the organization wikileaks.
2. Snowden is an unaffiliated whistleblower(or traitor I guess, depending on perspective), formerly a contractor for the NSA.
3. Anonymous isn't a group, it's a name internet nerds give themselves to make themselves feel important when they're sharing images of nude children, kittens and horrible memes.

And I am quite familiar with "the US political system", thankyouverymuch.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

i update my first post.........

an i know it may sound not connected! but it is as i said you "after that your mind and intelligences will grower and will discover more of USA POLITICAL System !!"

if you'd like to join....but if not......just watch their documentaries!! if you find of course! because UK & US imperialism and other are highly afraid of their revelations! (an example- was USA's link to Bashar Assad and Syrian Civil war!!) as they are hunting to kill Anonymous Members like Julian Assange and the one that escaped to Russia! (i dont remember his name)
i know they just misuse the word "democracy & angel of mankind in history-(like in hollywood)" so if they dont have anything to hide, why they are afraid of revealing their covers and crimes?! why they kill their defector such as KENNEDY & Lincoln & ........too many other?!!

anyway, i like the way Anonymous moves, they Rock! i like USA & Imperialism's Hate on Anonymous as they were fearly resisting their revolt in Occupy Wall Street Movement in 2011! even if they were Victorious standing against will of People...and...people forgot!!
but you could mail them in some way....they will mail you...but you cant mail them!! well, they're Hacktivists and even CIA & FBI Cant get them!! haha!!

I thought that you, of all people, would know that Anonymous is nothing more than the stalking horse of the trilateralists. Sure, they "strike at the power," but only at the "official" government level. Unknowingly, they do little more than keep public scrutiny away from the REAL powers-that-be.

[Empire*Of*Media]

I told you truth, in a bad english way i agree that, i said my english is only good for making a little understand, well anyway, im sorry for you people that see some strange truth, instead of searching or even questioning, insulting & offensing mocking and extenuating, will be your shelter, and you think your the perfect and you know the truth against those that THEY have told you are nothing to be counted and should not be listened to.......

one of my british friends that doesnt pay any ****ing attention to political discussions here and all you know him, hes is even moderator, i was surprised with his hate toward The ELITE that rules the world & Their Imperialism told me that most of us (you) know the truth, told me about stopping discussion with blind & deaf people said:
all these etiquetes and stereotypes are lies we tell ourselves, so that we can keep an idea of "us and them" the truth is that there's only an us and whole mankind belongs to it.
i said, you know, the most big huge problem of mankind, is that they dont "THINK" !!!! some dont some Suppose they are thinking !! but its all what its told them to be !!
then he said a brilliant answer: fear my friend, they are slaves of fear consciously or unconsciously they are scared to be signaled out, so they don't formulate their opinions or keep them to themselves! the funny thing is it is all so clear and simple, but we stack in our heads so many troubles and distraction that we just can't see it anymore or worse decide to ignore it, because it causes us depression :D

he told me ignore and have my life, but sadly i cant ignore the ignorance! and concers of the world is my concern too! because my mind & thinkings are not limited like yours! i even concern about people in Burkinafaso that you dont even know where it is!!
mostly im sorry for myself thinking that not to convince, but at least have a good rational disscussion, not to offense and insults and mockeries !!

but know that! its your think that US or ME is the absolute and the perfect truth, because i/we have been used to think like this how they to make us thought since we we were in schools ......and you/they are the child thinkers or crazy minds that only know to attack hate and kill! well if you look to your world and see more you'll see that YOUR OWN world wasnt like that you thought!! anyway.....im not THE VICTOR or the Ruler, To Write or show the truth and even history for you !!! its the others that dont like the Truth !

go into your American & New (American) European Dream !
go Robots and dont listen to anything!
just do what life they've created for you........

[Husar]

You have to go to Montmorency's thread if you want to discuss us humans being robots.

As for having a narrow mind, it's just as narrow to insist on these conspiracies as it is to think there is never any truth to any of them.
People in the West do not care about Burkina Faso because they already have a comfy life, tell them there are terrorists in Burkina Faso who will cause the oil price to double and then people here will care. That's nothing new however.

[Beskar]

one of my british friends that doesnt pay any ****ing attention to political discussions here and all you know him, hes is even moderator.

There isn't actually anyone who fits that description, to my knowledge..

[Husar]

There isn't actually anyone who fits that description, to my knowledge..

It's Brenus most likely.

[Kadagar_AV]

It's Brenus most likely.

I had a mouth full of coffee as I read that...