The Glorious American Justice system!

[HoreTore]

All Hail!

The ACLU has released a report on 3278 prisoners with lifetime sentences for nonviolent crimes. If you don't feel like reading, have a handy interactive graphic.

These scum of the earth have committed such heinous crimes as stealing a wallet, a truck or selling 10g of pot. BURN THEM AT THE STAKE!!





FYI Americans, this is why we Europeans consider you barbaric. There is no excuse for this kind of behaviour. None.

[Fragony]

Three times your out, does it says what the previous crimes were. And most won't die in prison, life in prison isn't life in prison in America. I admit it is a really harsh system, but over here people who have a criminal record the size of the bill of rights get away with everything every time, at a certain point they should be removed from society. Where that point should be laying I don't know.

[rvg]

All Hail!

The ACLU has released a report on 3278 prisoners with lifetime sentences for nonviolent crimes. If you don't feel like reading, have a handy interactive graphic.

These scum of the earth have committed such heinous crimes as stealing a wallet, a truck or selling 10g of pot. BURN THEM AT THE STAKE!!

3278. Out of millions. Not impressive at all.

FYI Americans, this is why we Europeans consider you barbaric. There is no excuse for this kind of behaviour. None.

Okay. No problem.

[Ironside]

Three times your out, does it says what the previous crimes were. And most won't die in prison, life in prison isn't life in prison in America. I admit it is a really harsh system, but over here people who have a criminal record the size of the bill of rights get away with everything every time, at a certain point they should be removed from society. Where that point should be laying I don't know.

The life time/capita number (50/100.000) in the US is about 60% of the total prisoners in the Netherlands (82/100.000). And the total number per capita is 9 times higher in the US (743/100.000), giving them about 25% of the prisoners in the world.

I think that counts as going overboard.

And 3 times you're out is probably too few times for those who turn around after starting to commit crimes. It may take 2 or more times before the descision to change really comes.

[Rhyfelwyr]

The US seriously needs to remove corporate/private financial interests from where they don't belong. You should never have a situation where it is in the financial interests of the prison authorities to keep prisoners for as long as possible. Where judges have shares in those organizations!

1/4 of the world's prison population in the 'leader of the free world', lol. More blacks in prison today than there were slaves in 1850. And some of them on the sites of former plantations! If I was born black in America I would be doing everything I could to leave. I don't see how anybody can think this is a healthy situation.

Never mind that US prisons look a lot meaner than British ones. How can putting people in a state of perpetual race war, where petty criminals have to join brutal gangs possibly help to prepare people for re-integrate into society?

[Montmorency]

3278. Out of millions. Not impressive at all.

As a raw number it's not impressive, but what is it, 2% of all life-sentences? That's a bit more troubling; should be more like 0.1% in a properly-functioning system.

[Fragony]

The life time/capita number (50/100.000) in the US is about 60% of the total prisoners in the Netherlands (82/100.000). And the total number per capita is 9 times higher in the US (743/100.000), giving them about 25% of the prisoners in the world.

I think that counts as going overboard.

And 3 times you're out is probably too few times for those who turn around after starting to commit crimes. It may take 2 or more times before the descision to change really comes.

The USA is bigger. I am getting a bit tired of the US-bashing that mostly seems to come from Scandinavian countries. Oh so better. No you arent't, you are just being jerks. That arrogance doesn't look good on you. Especially since the rape-statistics of your lands of unicorns and rainbows would shame any third world country. Best to shut up before you point any fingers.

[HoreTore]

Okay. No problem.

Ah, good ol' mindless american nationalism...

On some level it's good to know that it's not just some europeans who are stuck in a 1930's mindset, the same attitude exists over the pond as well.

[Fragony]

Ah, good ol' mindless american nationalism...

On some level it's good to know that it's not just some europeans who are stuck in a 1930's mindset, the same attitude exists over the pond as well.

And THAT is really bad. That is beyond being offensive, and I will just take it before our American posters do. How dare you, you Norwegians are known for euganics,nuntill 19300 and you still think you can judge others. You killed children that didn't have Nordic features.
That's your country. The country that could just as well could have organised a parade should the nazi's invade them another time, so easy

[rvg]

Ah, good ol' mindless american nationalism...

What's nationalism to some is just common sense to others. American justice is set up by us exclusively for us. We're not asking you to adopt our system, even though your treatment of Breivik is hair raising to many people here. Your country, your rules. Our country, our rules. Think what you will of this, it's not gonna matter to the way we do things here.
America isn't Europe. America isn't trying to be Europe or even be like Europe. Is that really so unsettling for the Europeans?

[HoreTore]

What's nationalism to some is just common sense to others. American justice is set up by us exclusively for us. We're not asking you to adopt our system, even though your treatment of Breivik is hair raising to many people here. Your country, your rules. Our country, our rules. Think what you will of this, it's not gonna matter to the way we do things here.
America isn't Europe. America isn't trying to be Europe or even be like Europe. Is that really so unsettling for the Europeans?

Mindless nationalisms trademark #2:

Whenever someone from "the outside" offers a point of view, he's trying to force you to change. There can be no other purpose to his despicable attacks of the One Truth(which is "we're the best and you suck").

[HoreTore]

And THAT is really bad. That is beyond being offensive, and I will just take it before our American posters do. How dare you, you Norwegians are known for euganics,nuntill 19300 and you still think you can judge others. You killed children that didn't have Nordic features.
That's your country. The country that could just as well could have organised a parade should the nazi's invade them another time, so easy

Do you honestly believe I have warm feelings for my country, or take any pride in my nation whatsoever, Fragolini?

[rvg]

...Whenever someone from "the outside" offers a point of view, he's trying to force you to change...

There's a difference between offering a point of view and repeating that point of view ad nauseum at every opportunity. You think America is backward and barbaric. Okay, got it. We've heard you and we don't care. Can we talk about something else now?

[HoreTore]

There's a difference between offering a point of view and repeating that point of view ad nauseum at every opportunity. You think America is backward and barbaric. Okay, got it. We've heard you and we don't care. Can we talk about something else now?

I do not, but I can see how a nationalist like you would think so.

[rvg]

I do not, but I can see how a nationalist like you would think so.

Didn't you just say...

...FYI Americans, this is why we Europeans consider you barbaric...

You're a European, no? Or you're not one of those Europeans?

[HoreTore]

Didn't you just say...

You're a European, no? Or you're not one of those Europeans?

Mindless nationalism trademark #3: the tendency to take everything literally, especially when it's negative statements about ones country.

[rvg]

Mindless nationalism trademark #3: the tendency to take everything literally.

Perhaps you could provide the figurative meaning of your statement for this "mindless nationalist"? Or would this be considered a "Mindless nationalism trademark #4"?

[HoreTore]

Perhaps you could provide the figurative meaning of your statement for this "mindless nationalist"? Or would this be considered a "Mindless nationalism trademark #4"?

Don't see much point in that.

Anyway, back to the topic:

Anyone else have thoughts on the three strike system, and/or on giving the most severe punishment for nonviolent crimes?

[rvg]

Don't see much point in that.

Right. Because there was no alternate figurative meaning.

[Fragony]

Do you honestly believe I have warm feelings for my country, or take any pride in my nation whatsoever, Fragolini?

I just suspect some pride misgiven horrie. Scandinavians can really be jerks, and their confidence that they are holding the light is annoying.

[Beskar]

Scandinavia/America/United States of Whatever.

Nationality aside, some of those cases are appalling in how they are handled.
Life imprisonment for a Vicar borrowing a car from a friend to visit his family on Christmas. Seriously?

Points on licence, fining, community service. No one is saying he shouldn't be punished for driving an vehicle he is uninsured for. But life sentence without parole?

If you really can sit there and justify that sentencing, you really need to take a hard look at your life.

[Ironside]

The USA is bigger. I am getting a bit tired of the US-bashing that mostly seems to come from Scandinavian countries. Oh so better. No you arent't, you are just being jerks. That arrogance doesn't look good on you. Especially since the rape-statistics of your lands of unicorns and rainbows would shame any third world country. Best to shut up before you point any fingers.

China is 4 times bigger. And is a dictorship. And has less prisoners. If you combine the prisoners and ‘detention centres’, then you get a similar size in numbers. So that's 1/4 of the number, with about 30% blatant political prisoners. UK is a western European anomaly with about 150.

It's not a US vs Scandinavia on this one, it's US stands out a lot compared to the rest of the world (presumably due to the war on drugs). Globally, the US is more normal on tax policies, gun control and police abuse/SWAT teams than on this.

Rape statistics contains an actual increase, but is also mostly a mixture of increased reporting (that or those immigrants doesn't ever do assult rapes) and changes in what constitutes rape instead of severe sexual harasment.

[Tuuvi]

It's interesting that the majority of those sentenced to life without parole are Black and are located in the South and Midwest. This is a travesty of justice and to me constitutes "cruel and unusual punishment". The war on drugs needs to stop.

[Montmorency]

Interesting note: since prisons are so overcrowded, violent criminals are often remanded to local jails and just shuffled around from place to place until they can be fitted somewhere more long-term. So there are increased opportunities for this type to rub shoulders with 'lesser' criminals over extended periods.

Question: should the organization of the prison-system be changed (after everything is done with reducing overcrowding and rewriting the penal code on personal use of drugs/controlled substances) so that highly-recidivistic misdemeanants+minor felons are concentrated together in prisons (which also raises the question of whether misdemeanants should serve their sentences in jails in all cases) to isolate them from the rest of the short-sentence inmates? That is, if prisons are going to be 'crime schools', then maybe we should implicitly designate specific units of the system as such, rather than allowing the diffusion of criminal norms and techniques throughout the entire incarcerated population.

[lars573]

The (semi) privatizing of the penal system, declaring wars on social problems and the fallout from political blundering, and these human rights abusing three strike laws all lead to the US becoming an authoritarian police state.

[rvg]

The (semi) privatizing of the penal system, declaring wars on social problems and the fallout from political blundering, and these human rights abusing three strike laws all lead to the US becoming an authoritarian police state.

How would you define an authoritarian police state? Specifically, what attributes would make a state authoritarian, and what attributes would classify it as a police state?

[Husar]

Is that really so unsettling for the Europeans?

Not for me.

[Kralizec]

Anyone else have thoughts on the three strike system, and/or on giving the most severe punishment for nonviolent crimes?

Three strikes is an insane idea. It takes an extremely self-righteous person, or perhaps just a stupid one, to think that locking someone up for life for three petty convictions has anything to do with "justice".

And it's bloody expensive as well - I wonder how many of its supporters are self-described "fiscal conservatives".

[rvg]

And it's bloody expensive as well - I wonder how many of its supporters are self-described "fiscal conservatives".

Three strike law states present a very weird mix of super-conservative (like Texas) and super-liberal (like Massachusetts) states.

[Kralizec]

I'm a fair minded guy. Liberals can be imbeciles, too.