when is something an insult?

[The Stranger]

To what extent do we need to consider the feelings of our fellow people? When I say something without the intention to insult anyone but nonetheless people are insulted, whose concern is that?

[Kralizec]

I think that letting it depend on the person who feels insulted is definitely a stretch.

I'd say that for something to count as insulting when it is not intended so, it would have to be something that a comfortable majority of people would find objectionable; and that the person making the statement should have known better. Does that fall under #3?

[HoreTore]

I can't see how the one making a comment can be the one deciding how it should be interpreted.

The insulted must be allowed to react however he wants to a statement, including feeling insulted. And if someone feels insulted, how can that not be called an insult? I say it's a subjective feeling that must necessarily be decided by the one on the receiving end.


This, however, does not in any way mean that anyone should ever care that someone else gets insulted.

[The Stranger]

And if someone feels insulted, how can that not be called an insult? I say it's a subjective feeling that must necessarily be decided by the one on the receiving end.

Because at the end of the day, people can feel insulted by everything. The clear counter-example to what you just said would be Homophilia and Homophobia. Some people are gay, other people can feel insulted by this, but does it therefor mean that being gay is an insult or is insulting?

Ofcourse when someone feels insulted, no rational reasoning can take away his feeling, but still we can discuss wether his feeling is justified. Similar to fear, sometimes fear is justified and sometimes it isnt, this doesnt take away the fear of one who is afraid, but it can allow us to say that what he is afraid of, is actually not a threat.

[Ironside]

Because at the end of the day, people can feel insulted by everything. The clear counter-example to what you just said would be Homophilia and Homophobia. Some people are gay, other people can feel insulted by this, but does it therefor mean that being gay is an insult or is insulting?

Ofcourse when someone feels insulted, no rational reasoning can take away his feeling, but still we can discuss wether his feeling is justified. Similar to fear, sometimes fear is justified and sometimes it isnt, this doesnt take away the fear of one who is afraid, but it can allow us to say that what he is afraid of, is actually not a threat.

The same comment, in the same tone, can be an intended insult, unthoughtful insult, unintended insult and a helpful question (Can I help you?). So evidently, it's the perciever that decides if it's an insult or not.

The justification has to do with the next phase. How do you respond to the insult and how should the (sometimes accidental) insulter respond to that in turn? I don't think there's a good generalisation that doesn't have plenty of exceptions for that.

Edit:
Take a gaming example. Say that you're extra helpful towards a girl in a computer game, because she's a girl and "girls aren't good at computer games". That's an insult and should be treated as "education time" (same thing as you gay example gave, even if it's rather offended than insulted), even if you didn't intend it as such. It's unintentionally demeaning. With a child, that kind of stuff can be both demeaning and correct at the same time.

One symbolic part of friendship is tolerating comments that if said by anyone else is an insult. That also means that the "insulter" needs to know when to not throw that "insult" since it will be taken as an insult at that point.

It basically falls down to what the larger society finds acceptable/tolerable or not.

[The Stranger]

The same comment, in the same tone, can be an intended insult, unthoughtful insult, unintended insult and a helpful question (Can I help you?). So evidently, it's the perciever that decides if it's an insult or not.

The justification has to do with the next phase. How do you respond to the insult and how should the (sometimes accidental) insulter respond to that in turn? I don't think there's a good generalisation that doesn't have plenty of exceptions for that.

Edit:
Take a gaming example. Say that you're extra helpful towards a girl in a computer game, because she's a girl and "girls aren't good at computer games". That's an insult and should be treated as "education time" (same thing as you gay example gave, even if it's rather offended than insulted), even if you didn't intend it as such. It's unintentionally demeaning. With a child, that kind of stuff can be both demeaning and correct at the same time.

One symbolic part of friendship is tolerating comments that if said by anyone else is an insult. That also means that the "insulter" needs to know when to not throw that "insult" since it will be taken as an insult at that point.

It basically falls down to what the larger society finds acceptable/tolerable or not.

ofcourse we can never determine effectively what the intention is of the one making the comment (but the same is true about being offended, we can never know if offense is actually taken or people pretend for whatever reason), that is why people misinterpret and sometimes are offended by something that was not intended as an offense (make note, that for those who are offended, intention may not always matter, but it often does).

Your reasoning allows the same to be said about the reception of the comment, because every comment can be perceived in many ways, surely it cannot be left up just to the one interpreting the comment. And if as you say, it cannot also be left up to the one making the comment, there must be another qualifying factor.

But Im not sure if it cannot be left solely up to the one making the comment (lets call him the commentator). The interpretator can make mistakes in interpreting the intent of the commentator (he can however make no mistake in interpreting what the comment means to him at that point in that context). The commentator however cannot mistake his intent (unless we are going to factor in unconsious decisions, which i would leave out for now).

Neither approach is flawless, putting the power to qualify something as an insult in the hands of the interpretor would result as someone else pointed out, in everything possibly being an insult, in a justice analogy, everything you say and do could be a crime and you would always be guilty. If you put the burden soley with the commentator, then to make another justice analogy, everyone could always claim innocence, and nobody could ever prove the contrary.

so what could that other factor be, it could be what society finds acceptable or not, so it would come down to some sort of convention to function as an objective anchor between two subjective points. But there is a problem with that convention, how does society decide what is acceptable and what not?

I have to go now :/ will come back later to finish this post.

[Tellos Athenaios]

An insult is an insult when it is perceived as such. You can't really undo offence given to someone by pointing out you didn't mean to, likewise most people are hardly going to be offended by the suggestion that their father smells of elderberries even if it is most sincerely intended to insult them. The real question, I think, is not about when something is insulting per se, but rather when does it matter whether or not you are insulting, or in other words: (when) do you care?

[Sp4]

I always kind of understood insults to be done on purpose and offenses to happen accidentally or at least I make that distinction. I'm aware that some things I can say might offend people though, so I try to avoid doing it cause if I wasn't doing that, I'd be insulting them on purpose =X XD

[Husar]

There are always two sides to communication and if you want to communicate something and you care how it is received, you have to try to predict how the recipient will interprete it. If you fail and someone feels insulted, you can state you actual intention but it depends on the recipient whether they still believe you. If not, as Tellos says, it depends on how much you care.

I've personally managed to turn some unintended insults around and others not so much.

It generally helps to be a bit more careful with words however if you like the people you talk to.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Communication theorists generally hold with the view that it is the message receiver and not the sender who determines the impact of a message.

If you say "that doesn't flatter you" and your S.O. hears "You're fat and ugly" just GUESS which interpretation dominates the relationship for the next little while.


Some phrases and words do carry too much baggage and can end up causing insult through simple use. Perhaps this should not be so, but it is.

[The Stranger]

Communication theorists generally hold with the view that it is the message receiver and not the sender who determines the impact of a message.

If you say "that doesn't flatter you" and your S.O. hears "You're fat and ugly" just GUESS which interpretation dominates the relationship for the next little while.


Some phrases and words do carry too much baggage and can end up causing insult through simple use. Perhaps this should not be so, but it is.

Yes, this seems to be the current status quo but I'm not sure I like it, but its good you bring it up. I may come back to it later with a response!

[The Stranger]

An insult is an insult when it is perceived as such. You can't really undo offence given to someone by pointing out you didn't mean to, likewise most people are hardly going to be offended by the suggestion that their father smells of elderberries even if it is most sincerely intended to insult them. The real question, I think, is not about when something is insulting per se, but rather when does it matter whether or not you are insulting, or in other words: (when) do you care?

yes, that question was part of my OP. and i guess in daily life its the more important question, tho for now ill regard it as of lesser importance.

for now the answer, you should care when you care about the opinion of the person who is insulted, either because you love/respect/fear that person or because you need something of that person.

[Fragony]

Only when it's intended to be an insult, that's an act. If someone feels insulted it was just insulting.

[a completely inoffensive name]

When the intent of the speech is insulting in nature. Removing intent from the equation makes every statement an insult.

[Montmorency]

AFAIK both since moron is a derogatory term for mentally retarded persons. Retard has the same negative connotation though so maybe mentally challenged would be a term that is not insulting to "morons" without wanting to be incredibly PC. Using moron as an insult is as insulting to morons as using gay as an insult is insulting to gay people because by using the term as an insult you insinuate that it's a bad/inferior/disgusting thing. And this is insulting if the group of people did not choose to be that way and your classification is needlessly harsh. One could say that a mentally challenged person is indeed inferior but it's the mean-spirited nature of using the word as an insult that actually makes it insulting.

So yeah, quite a good point there Seamus.

IOW, convention.

[Myth]

Well knowing someone is a moron is not the same as stating it. I was illustrating my point And I used the word as a generalization for stupid, I didn't know it was synonymous with "retard".

But, the same thing can happen because of the language barrier. Imagine a foreign exchange student coming to the USA (for example) and someone telling him he looks like a fruitcake. He might take it as a positive thing. It was an intended insult for all to hear, meant to ridicule that person. If someone else who knows what that meant explains it to him, he has every right to be offended.

[Husar]

IOW, convention.

Yeah, I was a little tired and noticed that I was just blabbering like Captain Obvious, thus the smiley.

I'm glad someone else noticed it though.

[The Lurker Below]

The singer has agreed to pay Dawn Simorangkir $430,000, plus interest, to settle a lawsuit the designer filed in March 2009 over comments Love made on Twitter and her MySpace blog.

Courtney Love wasn't sure whether her comments would be well received until the other parties lawyer made it clear she'd be paying for the perceived insult.

Insults, like transgender restrooms, is serious business...for attorneys.

[The Stranger]

not just for attorneys :/ it can send entire countries into a fit of rage and turmoil. I bet Frag hasnt been out of the house for days now.

[Fragony]

Maybe 28 days later I will give it a shot

[Myth]

not just for attorneys :/ it can send entire countries into a fit of rage and turmoil. I bet Frag hasnt been out of the house for days now.

What are you referring to?

[Kadagar_AV]

Very good TS.

I guess we have to separate insults and offense...

What is, or isn't, an insult is decided by the one making it.
What is, or isn't, offensive is however decided by the receiver.

This of course results in a HUGE grey area, and that's why social skills are so important, to navigate those grey waters.

[The Stranger]

Very good TS.

I guess we have to separate insults and offense...

What is, or isn't, an insult is decided by the one making it.
What is, or isn't, offensive is however decided by the receiver.

This of course results in a HUGE grey area, and that's why social skills are so important, to navigate those grey waters.

i guess thats a nice way of putting it.

The way I see it the grey areas are mostly the result of not knowing what the intentions are of others, and that, since it is subjective, pretty much anything can be offensive to someone.

Which brings us back to a question posed a few times before, to what extent should i concern myself when someone else is offended by what i say. And what happens when I know what I say will be offensive to the other person, but I simple think he shouldnt be such a whining *****. To take homosexuality again, I think every gay person knows that explicit gay behaviour offends some people, but they may simply not care. I think im right in saying that the majority of the people on this forum would say they have every right to ignore the feelings of those who are offended by their sexuality. But that brings us to the question of why it is ok in this case, and why it is not ok other cases, such as swearing. I may swear aloud, not with the intention to offend others, however while fully aware it will or may offend others.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Let's say that someone shows you some art they have made, and asks you to comment on it.

If it is good, and you tell them it isn't good, you have insulted them, because you are wrong. If it is bad, and you tell them it isn't good (tactfully) you haven't insulted them, even if they are offended, because you are justifiably telling the truth. If it is bad, and you tell them it is good (not just politely), you have insulted them even though they are happy, because you have been dishonest and flattered them or treated them like a child.

[The Stranger]

im sorry Sasaki, but i think that only moves the problem from who decides what an insult is to what is beautiful/art/true.

also the tactfully you but between () is interesting, because that hints at convention and culture. As you will hear frag say many times, dutch people are considere to be blunt, to the point of rudeness, but why is telling the truth bluntly any worse than telling it tactfully? Asides from the obvious pragmatism, which is only a result of us aparantly not being able to cope with blunt thruths, I dont see a principal point that can be made.