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Thread: Shaming of Criminals

  1. #1
    Rock, Paper, GOAT Member Monster Champion, Hit the Mole Champion, Mini KickUps Champion, Spy Hunter Champion, Population Tire Champion, Navy Battles Champion, Turbo Turtle Champion, Rally 2100 Champion, Plops Champion nl.'s Avatar
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    Default Shaming of Criminals

    Saw on the news briefly as I walked by the TV that some serial rapist or something (Papewaio might be able to elaborate more) was released after serving his sentence.

    I watched a few people saying he should be locked up, he will reoffend, etc.

    I do not think this is a good stance to have personally. The judge/jury sentenced the man to the appropriate(?) level, with the understanding of the situation of the man's crimes and himself in general.

    I don't think people should be rallying to throw him back in jail again after he served his time. That is not justice, that is vengeance.

    I must say though, I come from an outside perspective and not one that has been affected by such things.

    Thoughts?

    With regards to the shaming, there will be things likes a current affair and today tonight or 60 minutes that will do shows on him every so often most likely. Whilst he will never have a proper life again, he does deserve some privacy and freedom from media attention IMO.
    Last edited by nl.; 12-06-2013 at 11:17.

  2. #2
    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: Shaming of Criminals

    It shows a complete lack of respect for the law and justice by those who protest his release.

    Sad, really.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  3. #3
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Shaming of Criminals

    If he did his time he must be released. He wouldn't actually be released here though, we have tbs for that, he would go to a cllosed clinic and probably en up in the longstay

  4. #4

    Default Re: Shaming of Criminals

    Fardon has waged a 10-year battle for freedom after serving the full sentence he received for the rape, assault and sodomy of a woman in 1988.

    The violent assault happened when Fardon was released from jail on parole after serving eight years of a 13-year sentence for the rape and assault of a girl, 12, and wounding of her 15-year-old sister.
    Should have been executed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Visorslash
    I don't think people should be rallying to throw him back in jail again after he served his time. That is not justice, that is vengeance.
    Revenge is the essence of justice. The point of courts and the rule of law is to make it civilized, and prevent errors and feuds, that's all. If one of the victims gunned him down in the street and I was on the jury I would vote to acquit.

    People who favor light sentences because it makes them feel good about themselves have blood on their hands.

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  5. #5
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Shaming of Criminals

    Why don't we jail and execute children then? Revenge can be applied to them as well.


    "Topic is tired and needs a nap." - Tosa Inu

  6. #6

    Default Re: Shaming of Criminals

    Revenge is the essence of justice.
    And that is precisely why "justice" is a self-serving delusion.

    Next we'll be barking like dogs and calling it "reason" - oh wait...
    Vitiate Man.

    History repeats the old conceits
    The glib replies, the same defeats


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  7. #7
    Ni dieu ni maître! Senior Member a completely inoffensive name's Avatar
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    Default Re: Shaming of Criminals

    Quote Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro View Post
    Revenge is the essence of justice.
    You don't need a court to get revenge, so what is the point of the system then?
    In all these papers we see a love of honest work, an aversion to shams, a caution in the enunciation of conclusions, a distrust of rash generalizations and speculations based on uncertain premises. He was never anxious to add one more guess on doubtful matters in the hope of hitting the truth, or what might pass as such for a time, but was always ready to take infinite pains in the most careful testing of every theory. With these qualities was united a modesty which forbade the pushing of his own claims and desired no reputation except the unsought tribute of competent judges.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Shaming of Criminals

    You don't need a court to get revenge, so what is the point of the system then?
    To maintain the legitimacy of the illusion; to contract out the taking of vengeance.

    After all, what if SK couldn't personally take down every single criminal scum he encounters? He needs a government for that.
    Vitiate Man.

    History repeats the old conceits
    The glib replies, the same defeats


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  9. #9

    Default Re: Shaming of Criminals

    Quote Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name View Post
    You don't need a court to get revenge, so what is the point of the system then?
    What do you mean you don't need a court? Very often you do. And without courts you often have a kind of blood feud system. Who wants that? The strong will oppress the weak. People from powerful families will murder and rape and get away with it because no one can risk going up against them.

    What do you think the point of the system is?

  10. #10

    Default Re: Shaming of Criminals

    What do you think the point of the system is?
    To maintain order and uphold the state's monopoly on force. Different policies will have different effects on the maintenance of these.
    Vitiate Man.

    History repeats the old conceits
    The glib replies, the same defeats


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  11. #11
    Ranting madman of the .org Senior Member Fly Shoot Champion, Helicopter Champion, Pedestrian Killer Champion, Sharpshooter Champion, NFS Underground Champion Rhyfelwyr's Avatar
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    Default Re: Shaming of Criminals

    The codification of law divorced it from its natural roots. It started as something organic, moulded by society; and has become something arbitrary, that moulds society rather than the reverse. Look, for example, at the social issues brought about in America's poor communities by mass incarceration.

    If law doesn't flow from the society it serves, but rather particular demographics who monopolize it, then it will never properly fulfil the function it is intended to. The codification of law is the means by which minorities can monopolize it in this way.
    At the end of the day politics is just trash compared to the Gospel.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Shaming of Criminals

    If law doesn't flow from the society it serves, but rather particular demographics who monopolize it, then it will never properly fulfil the function it is intended to.
    Has it really ever not been this way?
    Vitiate Man.

    History repeats the old conceits
    The glib replies, the same defeats


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  13. #13
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Shaming of Criminals

    Vengeance is NOT the point of system of justice. The point of a system of justice is to replace revenge with a system of intimidation and minimized recidivism.

    What would be the point of a system of laws if nobody knew what were going to be considered crimes? If most people know that murder is a crime and that they will be punished for it, they should be somewhat more hesitant about resorting to murder. It only modifies behavior if people are aware that it is a "wrong" and that they risk punishment if caught doing said activity. The threat of penalty serves to modify our behavior, in many cases even when there is no authority on scene. For example, most Americans driving on a lonely road on the open plains with no cars visible for multiple miles in any direction, who come to a stop sign on that road, will stop at the stop sign. We become conditioned to obey the law.

    Despite this, we are all aware that it is impossible to deter all crime, so the second facet of a system of justice is to do something that will minimize recidivism. Executing a murderer cannot revive the victim -- it can only prevent the murderer from adding to their kill total. We treat children differently before the court because we assume that a greater degree of learning, experience and maturity will suffice to prevent recidivism and that physical separation etc. will not be required to accomplish this.
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." -- H. L. Mencken

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  14. #14
    smell the glove Senior Member Major Robert Dump's Avatar
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    Default Re: Shaming of Criminals

    Shaming could work like this:

    Baby Quit Your Cryin' Put Your Clown Britches On!!!

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  15. #15
    Ni dieu ni maître! Senior Member a completely inoffensive name's Avatar
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    Default Re: Shaming of Criminals

    Quote Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro View Post
    What do you mean you don't need a court? Very often you do. And without courts you often have a kind of blood feud system. Who wants that? The strong will oppress the weak. People from powerful families will murder and rape and get away with it because no one can risk going up against them.
    In all honesty Sasaki, how is this any different from the current system? Take anyway the last part and replace it with "because they have the ability to understand the system or hire people who understand it and abuse it to their benefit."

    What do you think the point of the system is?
    To render unto individuals their just desert in proportion to the crime they have committed or the crime they have suffered. This is very different from revenge which sets no cap on the limitations of punishments besides one own blood lust.
    In all these papers we see a love of honest work, an aversion to shams, a caution in the enunciation of conclusions, a distrust of rash generalizations and speculations based on uncertain premises. He was never anxious to add one more guess on doubtful matters in the hope of hitting the truth, or what might pass as such for a time, but was always ready to take infinite pains in the most careful testing of every theory. With these qualities was united a modesty which forbade the pushing of his own claims and desired no reputation except the unsought tribute of competent judges.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Shaming of Criminals

    My vengeance demands no less than the extinction of the whole universe.

    Furthermore, I decide on a case-by-case basis that this vengeance must be just, the most just vengeance in the history of justness and vengeance, because my logic and experience shows this to be the case.

    Therefore, all of you die now and I'll call it a good start.
    Vitiate Man.

    History repeats the old conceits
    The glib replies, the same defeats


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  17. #17
    Sovereign Oppressor Member TIE Fighter Shooter Champion, Turkey Shoot Champion, Juggler Champion Kralizec's Avatar
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    Default Re: Shaming of Criminals

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    Vengeance is NOT the point of system of justice. The point of a system of justice is to replace revenge with a system of intimidation and minimized recidivism.

    What would be the point of a system of laws if nobody knew what were going to be considered crimes? If most people know that murder is a crime and that they will be punished for it, they should be somewhat more hesitant about resorting to murder. It only modifies behavior if people are aware that it is a "wrong" and that they risk punishment if caught doing said activity. The threat of penalty serves to modify our behavior, in many cases even when there is no authority on scene. For example, most Americans driving on a lonely road on the open plains with no cars visible for multiple miles in any direction, who come to a stop sign on that road, will stop at the stop sign. We become conditioned to obey the law.

    Despite this, we are all aware that it is impossible to deter all crime, so the second facet of a system of justice is to do something that will minimize recidivism. Executing a murderer cannot revive the victim -- it can only prevent the murderer from adding to their kill total. We treat children differently before the court because we assume that a greater degree of learning, experience and maturity will suffice to prevent recidivism and that physical separation etc. will not be required to accomplish this.
    Good post. Allthough:

    Quote Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro View Post
    RevengeRetribution is the essence of justice. The point of courts and the rule of law is to make it civilized, and prevent errors and feuds, that's all.
    Fixed it. Retribution is an essential part of state-dispensed justice, because most people expect to see criminal behaviour to be met with punishment - even when it's perfectly plausible that a specific suspect/convict would not be likely to commit a crime again. It's not only pour décourager les autres, but also to satisfy the public's desire for retribution, their approval and therefore legitimacy of the system.

    That said; if the man served his time he is a free man and should be treated as such. Nulla poene sine lege is a cornerstone of a civilized society, and is quite frankly too important to be sacrificed to satifsfy people like the idiot protestors mentioned in the OP. Wether punishments should be harsher or lighter in general is another discussion.

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  18. #18
    Member Member Sp4's Avatar
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    Default Re: Shaming of Criminals

    For some reason I read the thread title as 'Shaving of criminals'

  19. #19
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Shaming of Criminals

    Quote Originally Posted by Sp4 View Post
    For some reason I read the thread title as 'Shaving of criminals'
    Stop getting drunk during your haircuts and these "barbarous" dreams will stop......
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." -- H. L. Mencken

  20. #20
    Banned Kadagar_AV's Avatar
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    Default Re: Shaming of Criminals

    Quote Originally Posted by Sp4 View Post
    For some reason I read the thread title as 'Shaving of criminals'
    It's probably Freudian... You should be worried about it.

    We sure are.

  21. #21
    Sovereign Oppressor Member TIE Fighter Shooter Champion, Turkey Shoot Champion, Juggler Champion Kralizec's Avatar
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    Default Re: Shaming of Criminals

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr View Post
    The codification of law divorced it from its natural roots. It started as something organic, moulded by society; and has become something arbitrary, that moulds society rather than the reverse. Look, for example, at the social issues brought about in America's poor communities by mass incarceration.

    If law doesn't flow from the society it serves, but rather particular demographics who monopolize it, then it will never properly fulfil the function it is intended to. The codification of law is the means by which minorities can monopolize it in this way.
    Are you sure you have the right idea of what "codification" means? Because justice was far, far more arbitrary before codification.

    Arguably the principle of Stare Decisis in common law would offer similar safeguards- but only if precedents remained the same indefinitely once introduced (and even then, there's the unlucky guy who gets to be convicted first, out of the blue). AFAIK even in England the overwhelming bulk of criminal law is found in statutes.

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