Mandela - Sinner or Saint

[PanzerJaeger]

RIP to all of Nelson Mandela's many innocent victims.

- split from RIP Mandela thread.

[Montmorency]

You're right - prepare the gallows for Kissinger.

[Empire*Of*Media]

May his Soul In Peace!
indeed a Great man! i cant imagine myself be in a Damn brutal BRITISH prison for 27 years, and then, after all suffers and tortures and insults those damn british imperialists did to him, for goddamn 27 years, and he forgive them all! he even did not insult his torturers!! what a man can be such a great except GANDHI,Nelson Mandela, Mother Teresa!!

its injustice such this people die but someone like Eisenhower Families, Roosevelt Families, Kissinger, Bush family and such these devils are rich and living!
ah......goddamn this world!

You're right - prepare the gallows for Kissinger.

Exactly!


Hey BRENNUS dont you have anything to offense & attack & Insult this great man too?!!

[Pannonian]

May his Soul In Peace!
indeed a Great man! i cant imagine myself be in a Damn brutal BRITISH prison for 27 years, and then, after all suffers and tortures and insults those damn british imperialists did to him, for goddamn 27 years, and he forgive them all! he even did not insult his torturers!! what a man can be such a great except GANDHI,Nelson Mandela, Mother Teresa!!

Wow, we British were to blame again, this time for Mandela's imprisonment. Is there no end to our iniquities?

[Kadagar_AV]

Panzer, I think you might want to explain your thoughts more elaborately, no?

[PanzerJaeger]

No. This is an RIP thread, meaning empty platitudes are the only acceptable response. Spend about five minutes on Google and you'll be able to figure it out.

[Rhyfelwyr]

In the hope this is inkeeping with an RIP thread - Mandela did take part of a lot of activities that are repugnant, and in most circumstances would be wholeheartedly condemned by Western media/society. I think he was flawed and the nature of the ANC's origins always meant it was never going to be well suited to good governance.

But at the same time, he was a product of Apartheid South Africa. The white establishment reaped what they sowed - they wanted the benefits of cheap black labour, traditional black lands - and the resultant oppression that comes with subjugating a population in that way. Those were the conditions that created Mandela and his revolution - the good and the bad.

[HoreTore]

In the hope this is inkeeping with an RIP thread - Mandela did take part of a lot of activities that are repugnant, and in most circumstances would be wholeheartedly condemned by Western media/society. I think he was flawed and the nature of the ANC's origins always meant it was never going to be well suited to good governance.

But at the same time, he was a product of Apartheid South Africa. The white establishment reaped what they sowed - they wanted the benefits of cheap black labour, traditional black lands - and the resultant oppression that comes with subjugating a population in that way. Those were the conditions that created Mandela and his revolution - the good and the bad.

What Mandela's racist opposition(like PJ) somehow doesn't seem to get, is that we hail Mandela because he renounced his previous violence. The man who left Robben Island was a very different man than the one who went in, and it is that man we admire.

[Gregoshi]

This is an RIP thread, meaning empty platitudes are the only acceptable response.

And knowing this, you still could not withhold your comments for another few days until his funeral.

The thread at this point in time is for those who wish to pay their respects to Nelson Mandela. After his funeral service, you are all free to discuss the good and/or the ill of the man's life.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

And knowing this, you still could not withhold your comments for another few days until his funeral.

The thread at this point in time is for those who wish to pay their respects to Nelson Mandela. After his funeral service, you are all free to discuss the good and/or the ill of the man's life.

I have always enjoyed this backroom tradition.

[ICantSpellDawg]

And knowing this, you still could not withhold your comments for another few days until his funeral.

The thread at this point in time is for those who wish to pay their respects to Nelson Mandela. After his funeral service, you are all free to discuss the good and/or the ill of the man's life.

Bah to censorship. He's not being offended. Mandela always seemed OK, especially when he got older and realized that Marxism was a joke. People live and then they die and this incessant public circle jerk is getting old.

What I enjoy about these high profile deaths is that they get people to pull their heads out and read about historical occurrences for five seconds, or long enough to spray sycophantic platitudes all over everyone.

RIP

[PanzerJaeger]

RIP Nelson Mandela

Really? Your edit changed the intent of my post. I corrected it.

[Beskar]

Really? Your edit changed the intent of my post. I corrected it.

It was changed to a simple acknowledgement of a mans death, in keeping with tradition you mentioned yourself. It wasn't intended to mistake you for an anti-apartheid supporter.

[PanzerJaeger]

It wasn't intended to mistake you for an anti-apartheid supporter.

My stance on apartheid is not the issue (NSFW Link).

[a completely inoffensive name]

Personally I am interested in what Panzer has to say about the matter. But I can wait 5 or so days for it.

[HoreTore]

My stance on apartheid is not the issue.

This is like linking to Hitler for evidence of Jewish crimes.

[Fragony]

What you don't remember because you never saw it http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fcOXqFQw2hc

[PanzerJaeger]

This is like linking to Hitler for evidence of Jewish crimes.

Do you dispute the information given on the page?

How you or anyone else can look at those charred bodies and mindlessly parrot the whitewashed propaganda that has been built up around this man is beyond me.

[PanzerJaeger]

Never mind.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

thats exactly to say, we should not blame Stalin for all his executions and crimes, because someone else has done the order!!
im sorry but, pretty much bad Idea!

i dont know for europe, but the rest of the world that has been colony of the brits, and have suffered much that the post can not take the whole of it, have the experience of their so called GOODNESS & KINDNESS!! and thats why much of their past colonies are in very good situation!! Look Africa & India & Middle East and South East Asia!
at least USA have colonies but they spare a little to the colony! but Damn britain plundered and drained all of the coloies resources without giving them a bit! and anyone who stodd for, would be jailed or killed!
after all of this, still not blaming Government but its agents?!

No

The BRITISH Government was not responsible - the SOUTH AFRICAN Government was.

Like I said, under the British government Mandela went to university, passed the bar and had the vote - once Britain LEFT the Dutch Boers instituted Apartheid.

You're also factually incorrect - The British Empire never instituted a policy of extraction of resources - what they did was enforce trading monopolies that benefited British merchants, which the British Government then taxed IN BRITAIN.

You want to talk about former British Colonies?

India is the largest democracy on Earth.

Get a grip - read the actual laws the British government passed - or just read the wikipedia article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Africa

Nobody's saying Britain was wonderful - but they were not responsible for Apartheid - SA has been self-governing since 1931.

[Empire*Of*Media]

“after all, your in US army, i should not expect better that you” I can’t stop laughing. ...............:

well here is not a place to stand against your insults and lies!

the interesting matter, is that all those things you accuse to me, its directly going to you, but i have forgot to tell it, or my bad english. anything, but you too (if we suppose i didnt!) brought facts! you only BOLD what you wish to offense! and did never replied to ALL of my texts! only your own lies or some bull shit from some imperialist British & American officers & soldiers and you call it HISTORY!! well, you know, i have an idea, go rewrite history, and say before the birth of GOD Humanitarian Imperialism (!!) of Britain & USA created human civilization! and make all of us relax not to debate with you anymore!

so....go one on your army's goal. Humanitarian KILLing and Plunder and putting shitt y lies in your own history books and nerve War!!
ah....another question....how many people did you beat ?! and more....how many people did you kill for your master?!


ah .......sorry people, i know this thread is not for this, but i cant stand ignorance and lie and hatred !

THE.......END of quarreling with Imperialist Killers.....

[HoreTore]

Brenus is French.

A Frenchman cannot serve in the US army.

[Pannonian]

Dang it, why did you have to spoil it? I was hoping for more words of wisdom from EasternKurdikus on why Brenus's American compatriots are colonising the world after dropping the BRITISH ATOM BOMBS on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

[Brenus]

“Brenus is French.” “Dang it”. Don’t worry; I suppose EasternKurdikus will find a way to turn it… He is full of imagination and has a fertile brain. I will be personally responsible for the Treaty of Lausanne (1923). It was nice to be qualified as a Imperialist Yankee. It was entertaining. Can't wait for him to adapt to see what are my crimes...

[Pannonian]

“Brenus is French.” “Dang it”. Don’t worry; I suppose EasternKurdikus will find a way to turn it… He is full of imagination and has a fertile brain. I will be personally responsible for the Treaty of Lausanne (1923). It was nice to be qualified as a Imperialist Yankee. It was entertaining. Can't wait for him to adapt to see what are my crimes...

Didn't the French invade Cambodia during the 1970s? At around the same time when Mandela was rotting in a British prison.

"i cant imagine myself be in a Damn brutal BRITISH prison for 27 years, and then, after all suffers and tortures and insults those damn british imperialists did to him, for goddamn 27 years, and he forgive them all! he even did not insult his torturers!! " - EasternKurdikus on Nelson Mandela

[PanzerJaeger]

Is it still too early to discuss the gross mismanagement and rampant corruption that characterized his administration, or are we still in sanctification mode? What about Mandela's denial of anti-retrovirals to HIV positive pregnant women - pregnant women - one of the most heinous acts of evil committed by any post-war leader that ended hundreds of thousands of lives?

[Fisherking]

Brenus is French.

A Frenchman cannot serve in the US army.

Unless they have changed the rules recently, even you could serve.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

... I don't mean to bash him, but he seems like gandhi or lincoln, one of those figures that gets built up all out of proportion, to the point that when people actually see that he was involved with terrorists at all they are shocked. The real things you would judge a person by get covered up.

That's a fair point. Like both of those others you mentioned, Mandela the icon is being distanced somewhat from Mandela the person. In my post above, I did start with a caveat that this was not the ONLY issue that defines Mandela's career -- though it is one aspect that I believe is worthy of much credit.

[PanzerJaeger]

I understand and respect the tradition, but tradition for tradition's sake is not always the best course of action. RIP threads have always amounted to little more than spam. Worse, they tend to stifle real discussion surrounding the legacy of the subject. I guarantee that when you reopen the Mandela thread you split from this one on the 15th, if you even bother to remember to do so, it will get very little if any responses. I was not thinking about Mandela before his death, and I probably won't be thinking very much about him in a week. Now is when people are thinking about the man and his life, now is when historians and pundits are weighing in on his legacy, and now is when we should be allowed to do the same. Many of you may not agree with my opinion on Mandela, but my responses did generate meaningful and insightful discussion and rebuttals. Such discussions are the true reason the Backroom is one of the fine wines of the internet, under-appreciated by the masses but very appealing to those with sophisticated and discriminating intellectual tastes - not meaningless traditions and self censorship.

[Montmorency]

The simple solution is to just operate as a hit-squad and kill whomever we have been discussing before they can die of their own accord. (Nothing's classier than paying respects to the man you've just killed, BTW)

That should cover all the bases.