Nothing to see here, move along

[The Lurker Below]

We in the USA are of the West, and most of us are still churched, so your description isn't quite so apt. What I have read suggests that Western Europe is no longer churched, so your label may well apply there.

This could be confusing to non-American speaking peoples, may I translate for you?

churched = a very large stadium where the true believers imbibe vast quantities of spirits while observing the most devout of the congregation run around in their pajamas tossing around a fantastic leather relic.

Seamus, the European relic is of a different shape, and would look out of place in the American stadium of worship, but it seems Europeans are as devoted to it as Americans are to theirs.

[Hax]

Hax, Bin Laden wasn't exactly a muslim immigrant to the western world... So either you missed my point, or you failed to explain how your point had any relevance to what I said.

Because I think that these people are a good representation of what this particular study is pointing towards. The rhetoric utilised by these people has been pretty influential over the last decades.

I would not dismiss the religious component so quickly,

I did not dismiss it at all, I didn't feel the need to mention it, because it's pretty obvious.

EDIT: Also, mass immigration causes problems? In other news, the sky is still blue (although it's very dark in Estonia, where I am right now)

[The Stranger]

[Kadagar_AV]

Because I think that these people are a good representation of what this particular study is pointing towards. The rhetoric utilised by these people has been pretty influential over the last decades.

I take it that you are just misinformed then. To point out the obvious alternative is frowned upon on here on the .org

A rich sheikh is a good representation of what that study points towards?

Newsflash, Muslims in the western world are poor refugees. Over here, it's a clear WIN if they understand some kind of an alphabet. Obviously not the alphabet of the surrounding culture, but you know, just some kind of an alphabet at large.

If they then go on letting their daughter date a guy from the civilization accepting them, without "honour-killing" her (Here in Sweden balcony jumping is a new sport), they get rewarded by the king or something or some such.

[Fragony]

Oh ya Frags, one survey really lays it all out on the table.

I heard your man Geert is trying to get elected on a reactionary ticket to the EU, with the aim of destroying the establishment. Pot calling the kettle black much?

The Eu that wants to destroy the democratic nation-state and establish a fourth reich runned by unelected eurocrats, the EU that funds Hamas and the Muslim Brotherhood, that EU? Which pot, which kettle.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

This could be confusing to non-American speaking peoples, may I translate for you?

churched = a very large stadium where the true believers imbibe vast quantities of spirits while observing the most devout of the congregation run around in their pajamas tossing around a fantastic leather relic.

Seamus, the European relic is of a different shape, and would look out of place in the American stadium of worship, but it seems Europeans are as devoted to it as Americans are to theirs.

"Separated by a common language" indeed. Stadium sports "worship" is still second in the USA to church/synagogue/temple services....so far.

[Hax]

I take it that you are just misinformed then. To point out the obvious alternative is frowned upon on here on the .org

A rich sheikh is a good representation of what that study points towards?

Newsflash, Muslims in the western world are poor refugees. Over here, it's a clear WIN if they understand some kind of an alphabet. Obviously not the alphabet of the surrounding culture, but you know, just some kind of an alphabet at large.

I thought you were living in Austria?

I think you're being slightly too quick here on two accounts:

Firstly, the majority of Muslim immigrants to western Europe, in particular to France, Belgium, the Netherlands, and Germany, aren't exactly "poor refugees". Although the Iraq and Afghanistan conflicts and the civil war in Somalia have affected the amount of political refugees from those areas, I would still say that the vast majority of refugees from Muslim-majority countries are economic migrants, particularly nowadays, when we witness 3rd to 4th generation Moroccans (France, Belgium, the Netherlands), Algerians and Tunisians (France), and Turks (the Netherlands, Germany) growing up in socio-economic circumstances that are much better than those of their (grand)parents.

In this respect, it's very naive to say that they are uneducated (although this may be the case in Sweden) or poor; quite the contrary, in recent years we have witnessed a rise in the amount of successful self-employed Turkish entrepreneurs (particularly in Holland). For what it's worth, the concept of th arab du coin (Arab on the corner) has become part of daily life in many big cities in France.

I think it's pretty safe to say that the vast majority of Muslim residents in western Europe are not illiterate refugees that sit at home, living off unemployment benefits. There are exceptions, to be sure, but it is certainly not the case in general.

So then let's go back to the actual point: why do these well-off Muslims think that secular law and homosexuals are awful? It's also interesting to note how you also only responded to Bin Laden, because it's very likely you've never heard of Sayyid Qutb or Hassan al-Banna, although I think those two are much, much more influential than Osama bin Laden has ever been.

So I think that many 2nd, 3rd and now 4th generation immigrants don't really feel at home either in their ultimate countries of origin, nor in their resident countries. I think that in many cases religion (especially one that is considered to be so direct and simple as Islam) provide answers to many of the questions that they're having. In the same vein, I think it's very interesting to see why people in western Europe convert to Islam, which is something I don't really understand.

[Kadagar_AV]

Hax, I'm in Sweden right now. It changes monthly, so I don't much bother keeping people updated.

Thank you for taking the time to make that post, I will answer you like this.

I understand your viewpoint, and I understand that being Muslim in today's world comes with a whole lot of "thorns out, shield up". For very understandable reasons, I might add. I for one make sure to go through security controls just after someone of Arabic heritage, just so I won't be bothered.

But let's face it, enough of a number of the Muslim immigrants - for it to be a problem, are acting in a way that the western world does not find acceptable. These people are NOT your neighbors or even countrymen. They are as related to you as I am to white guys in the former Soviet states.

Honestly speaking, would you like to be surrounded by Somalis and Afghans? Moroccans?

I feel, that you feel, that you must defend these people because of a shared religion. Dude, I am sooooo atheist it's not even fun. I respect a well read up Muslim a hell of a lot more than Christians trying desperately to keep their one brain cell within the family... Also lovingly known as "the south" in USAnian terms.

Sorry for skipping your arguments, I just had a feeling this was the main issue. Might be wrong though

[Brenus]

“So, like the French?”? Who, without a Sofitel incident would have elected a Jewish President?

“Bin Laden was an engineer and Sayyid Qotb worked as a teacher. Hassan al-Banna was a doctor.” True. The French Muslim Terrorists were all in university (Sciences). Apparently education doesn’t prevent stupidity.

“For what it's worth, the concept of th arab du coin (Arab on the corner) has become part of daily life in many big cities in France.” Very useful little shops indeed. When I left France (loooong time ago) they were in the process to be overtaken by the Vietnamese.

[a completely inoffensive name]

The title to this thread really lived up to itself.

[Fragony]

The title to this thread really lived up to itself.

Just because you can't see it doesn't mean there's nothing to see. Or can you actually see it and choose to ignore it, you can never know. Fact, lefties ignore what doesn't suit them, that, or they simply can't see facts anymore. Too far gone.

Fact, 2/3 of the muslims in Europe reject secular law.

[Hax]

Thank you for taking the time to make that post, I will answer you like this.

I understand your viewpoint, and I understand that being Muslim in today's world comes with a whole lot of "thorns out, shield up". For very understandable reasons, I might add. I for one make sure to go through security controls just after someone of Arabic heritage, just so I won't be bothered.

But let's face it, enough of a number of the Muslim immigrants - for it to be a problem, are acting in a way that the western world does not find acceptable. These people are NOT your neighbors or even countrymen. They are as related to you as I am to white guys in the former Soviet states.

Honestly speaking, would you like to be surrounded by Somalis and Afghans? Moroccans?

I feel, that you feel, that you must defend these people because of a shared religion. Dude, I am sooooo atheist it's not even fun. I respect a well read up Muslim a hell of a lot more than Christians trying desperately to keep their one brain cell within the family... Also lovingly known as "the south" in USAnian terms.

I feel that you don't really understand that I'm not a Muslim: I think it was pretty obvious in my last sentence.

Also, why the hell do you seem to think that I see these people as compatriots or neighbours? That's got nothing to do with the issue here at all. You may be doing it unknowingly, but it seems to me that you think that I'm somehow defending mass immigrants because I have some sort of ethnic or cultural link to them? Hell, I nearly got beat up because I was criticising Arab culture.

The thing is, I don't disagree that there are a lot of problems with mass immigration; the only thing I'm doing is offering a different perspective from where these problems come from.

I'm sorry if I come off as a tad frustrated, it just appears to me that people sometimes think I have some sort of ulterior motive because they assume I have a certain religion or am part of a certain culture. It's silly.

I for one make sure to go through security controls just after someone of Arabic heritage, just so I won't be bothered.

And yet 80 percent of all Muslims are non-Arab.