Undefined and dangerous

[Fisherking]

He's well into the paranoid idea that "the powers that be" are constantly conspiring to screw him(the "regular citizen") over, and that political debate is nothing more than a show to hide the hidden power structure.

Ie. a conspiracy nutjob. Unsurprisingly he endorses Ron Paul, the nuttiest of the bunch.

Whether Paul would be any different is irrelevant.

It is not so much a conspiracy as it is just the way US politicians operate.

Money is speech. Big Corporations give to both parties and individual politicians to get them elected.

Then the politicians want to keep the money coming so they vote in ways that benefit their benefactors.

The result is that laws favor these corporations and the people get ignored or sold out.

The two parties may have different talking points but the end result is the same.

The end result is a one party system that favors the money givers.

You are just buying a line, go back to you leftist roots and take a closer look.

The system need overhauled but there is no politician that is going to go along with it so long has they want to keep their job.

[Husar]

It is not so much a conspiracy as it is just the way US politicians operate.

Money is speech. Big Corporations give to both parties and individual politicians to get them elected.

Then the politicians want to keep the money coming so the vote in ways that benefit their benefactors.

But that is a conspiracy unless the companies say openly what they're up to. They certainly seem to let the politicians know who also do not claim to be supporting the secret desires of companies. If that is not a conspiracy, what is? Do they have to invent fancy names for their inner circles?

[HoreTore]

Whether Paul would be any different is irrelevant.

He's definitely different in the sense that he's the only US politician who I wouldn't be surprised to see sprouting some sovereign citizen nonsense. And that's quite relevant.

[Fisherking]

He's definitely different in the sense that he's the only US politician who I wouldn't be surprised to see sprouting some sovereign citizen nonsense. And that's quite relevant.

It beats politicians going along with the Military-Industrial Complex or any other complex where the money trumps the populous.

Whether you favor collective rights or individual rights a power structure at the beck-and -call of moneyed interests does not serve the people or the national will.

Hamstringing the NSA also neuters their technological providers or contract corporations. That government money goes elsewhere.

The same with the War on Drugs or any other government programs. Follow the Money.

It is just a corporate oligarchy with representatives bought by them.

It is also happening to the EU.

If you are happy with that kind of government just because the say what you want to hear, who is the nut case?

[HoreTore]

It beats politicians going along with the Military-Industrial Complex or any other complex where the money trumps the populous.

Whether you favor collective rights or individual rights a power structure at the beck-and -call of moneyed interests does not serve the people or the national will.

Hamstringing the NSA also neuters their technological providers or contract corporations. That government money goes elsewhere.

The same with the War on Drugs or any other government programs. Follow the Money.

It is just a corporate oligarchy with representatives bought by them.

It is also happening to the EU.

If you are happy with that kind of government just because the say what you want to hear, who is the nut case?

It's a matter of degree. There is some truth to what he said, but it's taken far into loonieland. And use of the term "Military-Industrial Complex" is usually a tell-tale sign that someone has crossed that boundary.

Corporations do act without morals and screw over people from time to time. But to say that corporations have no morals at all, that all they do is screw over people, that's taking things too far. Same with politicians. I'm sure some go into politics to enrich themselves. But at least as many do so for idealistic purposes.

And sorry - the Sovereign Citizen movement is the height of ignorance. Anything beats being one of those loonies.

[The Black Douglas]

It's a matter of degree. There is some truth to what he said, but it's taken far into loonieland. And use of the term "Military-Industrial Complex" is usually a tell-tale sign that someone has crossed that boundary.

Corporations do act without morals and screw over people from time to time. But to say that corporations have no morals at all, that all they do is screw over people, that's taking things too far. Same with politicians. I'm sure some go into politics to enrich themselves. But at least as many do so for idealistic purposes.

And sorry - the Sovereign Citizen movement is the height of ignorance. Anything beats being one of those loonies.

I dont have the lifeforce in me to fully read all of the above, but, the M.I.C. is not a figment of a tinfoil-hat conspiracists imagination, it is a real entity, Dwight Eisenhower warns of its dangers in his farewell speech.

In fact, at the closing stages of WWII, U.S. commercial magnates where of the opinion, initially, that investment in the weapons industry would be folly.
Then, I guess someone showed them the numbers...

[HoreTore]

I dont have the lifeforce in me to fully read all of the above, but, the M.I.C. is not a figment of a tinfoil-hat conspiracists imagination, it is a real entity, Dwight Eisenhower warns of its dangers in his farewell speech.

In fact, at the closing stages of WWII, U.S. commercial magnates where of the opinion, initially, that investment in the weapons industry would be folly.
Then, I guess someone showed them the numbers...

Most conspiracy theories are based on some real entity. The Illuminati is a real thing, for example. The problem is when the nutjobs convert the Illuminati from a late 18th century political club lasting around a decade into a millennia old organization hell-bent on world domination.

The same is true for the "Military-Industrial Complex".

[Fisherking]

It's a matter of degree. There is some truth to what he said, but it's taken far into loonieland. And use of the term "Military-Industrial Complex" is usually a tell-tale sign that someone has crossed that boundary.

Corporations do act without morals and screw over people from time to time. But to say that corporations have no morals at all, that all they do is screw over people, that's taking things too far. Same with politicians. I'm sure some go into politics to enrich themselves. But at least as many do so for idealistic purposes.

And sorry - the Sovereign Citizen movement is the height of ignorance. Anything beats being one of those loonies.

Not every politicians is totally corrupt and not every corporation is evil incarnate. I am dealing in generalities of course. But it is the general situation that is the problem.

In the vote to defund the NSA the vote drew a line. Left and Right were on both sides of the issue.

Those opposed were those getting the money from defense contracts etc. Those opposed were not. That makes it pretty clear. At least for that majority they were willing to put aside public options and legal concerns for the money.

The American Media is also to blame. Their corporate interests or their personal views color the output. No one will criticize or investigate in anything resembling objectivity. Without an independent media there is little way to shine the light on corruption.

It is a bit interesting that you have such a great fear of such a tiny minority group. I rather doubt you know much about them. You and the FBI on the same side. LOL

Of course you seem to be on the conservative side of this argument while I am on the left.

Are you turning conservative on other issues as well? Where is your revolutionary zeal?

[HoreTore]

[QUOTE=Fisherking;2053570947]I am dealing in generalities of course. But it is the general situation that is the problem.

I'm not saying it's all sunshine and roses. I'm simply saying the world isn't about to implode. The view I got from the rant you linked was that the world is going to implode soon.

No one will criticize or investigate in anything resembling objectivity.

I see no need for objectivity, and I question its very existence.

It is a bit interesting that you have such a great fear of such a tiny minority group. I rather doubt you know much about them. You and the FBI on the same side. LOL

"Fear" is the wrong word. I take an interest in all whackjob groups from Christian Identity to Eurabia to Sovereign citizens. As of now, my two current favourites are nazi christian fundamentalists going through all kinds of logical twists to explain away Jesus being a Jew, and the sovereign citizens. Mostly because of the holier-than-thou attitude they got from spending countless hours reading legal documents they don't understand a word of.

Of course you seem to be on the conservative side of this argument while I am on the left.

Are you turning conservative on other issues as well? Where is your revolutionary zeal?

I like market capitalism. I also like the state wielding a great big club to thump the market capitalism whenever it gets out of control.

I'm also a reformer, not a revolutionary. The switch was made back in the 20's, get with the program.

[Fisherking]

I like market capitalism. I also like the state wielding a great big club to thump the market capitalism whenever it gets out of control.

I'm also a reformer, not a revolutionary.

The trouble is that it is not market capitalism. The State Stick is very selective to whack only the competitors of the money providers. I call that out of control, by government and the interests behind them.

Government interference and monitoring is only there because they can. They have the technology. It is expensive and they are spending loads of money on it.

You don’t have to look very far to find that they are not only monitoring everyone but stealing plans and technologies from foreign firms and giving it to selected US firms. And these firms are not from enemies but supposed allies. Government spying to increase corporate profits.

It is blatantly illegal at every level yet government contends that it is justified. Turning the public into the enemy.

Officials won’t stop it because it means they lose campaign money.

That may be your dream state but few others would find that appealing.

Perhaps you find all of this too near conspiracy theory, but then again your knowledge of the US government is very limited and you don’t know the possible scope of abuse.

Reform is what is wanted and needed!

[HoreTore]

Oh, and it turns out Ron Paul associates with crackpots.

I am not surprised.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Oh, and it turns out Ron Paul associates with crackpots.

I am not surprised.

Not sure how it happens in Norway, but on this side of the pond, the Ron Pauls and others on the fringe do NOT get much in the way of power. What they get is the chance to voice their concerns and maybe....but only maybe....have one of their issues taken up by the more mainstream candidates.

Our fruit bat fringe, in this modern era of 24-hour unrelenting need something to grab their attention internet media electronic feeding frenzy, makes for interesting copy. This is true whether it is Ron Paul calling for a return to the Gold Standard or Westboro Baptist picketing soldier funerals or Miley Cyrus sticking her tongue to a wrecking ball or whatever. Circensus stuff that does nothing but throw chaff out.